Ask a Pentecostal

[Hat4]

It’s not a minority of Pentecostal denominations. Pentecostalism, Charismatic Christianity, and other related movements that emphasize the charismata are the fastest growing form of Christianity. Pentecostals and Charismatics together make up 500 million Christians, or a quarter of all Christians throughout the world. That’s not a “tiny minority” by any stretch of the imagination.

Where do you get the number of 500 million? There are 1.2 billion Catholics and about 230 million EO. That’s 1.43 billion out of a total of about 2.2 billion Christians. There are 350 million mainline Protestants. There are 274 million members of modern Protestantism which would include Pentecostalism at 130 million. That doesn’t seem even close to 500 million. I must admit you are brave starting one of these threads, it must be time consuming. Thank you for your contributions to CAF.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

There are some similarities. First, the belief on prophecy…

…There are also important differences. First, classical Pentecostalism has never emphasized prophecy to the degree that Montanism did…

Could you clarify how phophecy works within Pentacostalism?
Itwin:

…if we can trust what the anti-Montanist writers tell us about Montanists believing that their prophecies superseded the teaching of the Apostles, then there is definitely cause for concern…

How does a Pentacostal know their prophesy does not suspercede the teaching of the Apostles?

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by pismopal forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Do you…in your mind, as you speak in tongues,understand the words or are they in your mind, just as unintelligible as it is to your listeners?

I don’t speak in tongues to anyone in tongues but God. I’ve never given a message in tongues.

May I congratulate posters on this thread for a civil and charitable discussion based on learning. Too often threads are closed because of heated and uncharitable posts.

Itwin is doing an excellent job of answering proper questions. Thank you.

As I read this thread, I am thinking that it may help Catholics to understand how prayer tongues is used if I present info on prayer tongues from a Catholic position.

As Catholics, we believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit through the Sacrament of Baptism. As Catholics, we give our lives to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We humbly try not to hold anything back.

Regarding tongues. In Catholic terminology, we give, that is, yield our speech mechanism to the Holy Spirit. We clear our minds–put aside our to-do lists and our own way of speaking. We choose to give our physical being to God. When we give our lips, tongue, and larynx to the Holy Spirit, we are literally depending on the Holy Spirit to form the sounds of our personal prayer to God. In real life, sometimes these sounds are simply sounds. Sometimes these sounds have a cadence and thus sound like a language. In any case, our humble submission to the Holy Spirit is essential. What makes these sounds a personal prayer to God is our intention to personally pray to God.

How do I know that it is the Holy Spirit Who is forming the sounds coming from my mouth? One way is to check my mind and body. Am I still being respectful to God? Do I still have the same desire to communicate with God? Are my mind and body still in a prayerful position? Even when I am praying in tongues while driving (that is better than road rage) and I do need to concentrate on what I am doing, am I still in prayer in the same general way I would be if I were praying the Hail Mary? Prayer is prayer.

When we pray the Rosary, we use our own language. Our intention is to pray personally to God. When we pray in tongues, we physically set aside our own language while keeping our intention to personally pray to God. We show our belief and trust in the Holy Spirit when we give, that is, yield our tongue, lips, larynx to Him.
Because the person is freely accepting the action of the Holy Spirit, the person has total control over her or his prayer. Thus, a person can start and stop at will.

When I would bring Holy Communion to the sick, I was often asked if it was o.k. to say the Our Father in Polish rather than English. Often, people, who are seriously ill, find comfort in their childhood language. Does it really matter which language or sounds a person uses when praying to God?

As I recall, Itwin has mentioned personal spiritual benefits of praying in tongues. He has consistently been clear that he does not have the tongues gift of relaying messages from God to the assembled community. We need to understand that distinction.

I am not one to tell the Holy Spirit what He can do and not do. It is possible that people in other Faiths have a different experience of personally praying to God in tongues. All I am doing is to present what is the common experience of Catholics so that readers will get an idea of the depth of meaning in regard to praying in tongues.

 

[EIF5A]

I thought we were adults on this forum and could ask hard questions without sending someone to the ladies room sobbing. If you want to hold up a number card rating the sincerity or value of the questions posed by posters that is fine with me but I assure you that it will not send me to the ladies room and I fail to see the value.

If your intent was nor snarky, forgive me. But please read again and see where one might construe your attitude as being arrogant. You, yourself, indicated that he might think he is above others because of his gift of tongues, which you don’t believe he even has.

And you question him, asking, “Do you think your gift is better than helping the truly needy?” (paraphrased).

Your string of questions came across as a subtle patronizing remark.

 

[Steveabrous]

You are right. Pentecostals generally tend towards allowing women to lead churches.

You correctly point out that the Assemblies of God permits women’s ordination. They have a position paper laying out their beliefs on the matter: The Role of Women in Ministry as Described in Holy Scripture. You might also find this article by AG General Superintendent George O. Wood informative as well: “Exploring Why We Think The Way We Do About Women In Ministry”.

I’m sorry if this sounds rude but I do not have the time nor desire to read articles on the matter. You started the thread “Ask a Pentecostal”. I asked a very good question. Here it is again:

I’m wondering how you reconcile the fact that in the same letter, in fact, the same chapter that Pentecostals quote so much Paul says women should be silent in church. Yet the Pentecostal movement seems to ignore that part?"

I didn’t ask to read articles on the subject. Could you please just give me a simple answer.

 

[peace2u2]

A few years later I was baptized in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, so I had moved beyond the typical evangelical Protestant experience.

Hi Itwin,

You state that you were baptized in the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, my question is: Is speaking in tongues a gift of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Nicea325]

The Bible does not teach this. Yet, all men have failed. All men have the potential to be deceived and fall into error. Scripture, however, will never lead astray. It is God breathed, profitable for teaching and instructing, and it is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. There is nothing better that the church possesses than the Holy Scripture to guide its life and faith.

Scripture doesn’t speak about the propriety of wearing pink t-shirts, but that is irrelevant to the role of Scripture in the life of the church and the life of the individual Christian.

Ok.So if Scripture does not teach it,then how can one state Purgatory is false, if Scripture is their only means of making such a determination? I sense a contradiction in your argument or position.

BTW: If Purgatory was invented as so many non-Catholics believe, I am curious to know why not one non-Catholic has ever provided me primary sources clearing proving Purgatory was invented by the CC?

 

[SaintFrancis333]

Let me start off by saying that there are things I appreciate about the Catholic Church. I do like the fact that Catholics have history and they know who they are. Pentecostals don’t appreciate their own history enough. Too much we focus on the “new thing” God is doing in our lives and in the church and not enough looking back to give God thanks for what he has done in history. I also appreciate that the Catholic Church has never fallen into the trap of believing in cessationism

That said the biggest problems are beliefs that don’t appear to be warranted in scripture: Apostolic Succession, the pope’s unique role, Mariology, prayers to the saints, purgatory. It’s claim that other churches are simply “ecclesial communities” and somehow less than the Catholic Church is something that troubles me as well.

Another thing I’m not comfortable with is something that I perceive from my very limited interaction with the Catholic Church (mainly discussions on this forum). This is the lack of correlation between the rites of Christian initiation and the experience of Christian conversion. From my Pentecostal heritage, the performance of any sacerdotal or ecclesiastical rites is useless unless their is a Christian experience that accompanies it.

I also believe that Catholic liturgical worship is too routinized and the authority structure is too top heavy. But that has more to do with my own Pentecostal background than it does with whether the Catholic Church is “correct” in all its beliefs.

Apostolic Succession is very evident in Scriptures. I would ask you to visit ScriptureCatholic(dot)com. There are dozens and dozens of Scriptural references as well as historical texts taken from the Early Church Fathers who predate the Bible. It is very insightful. The Bible is replete with support for the Sacred Traditions and foundations of Christ’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (the literal/physical one, not just the universal one). It always boils down to authority. We ultimately trust those who founded our groups. To understand authority one must look at history in an unbiased context. To do so, will very quickly show the inescapable reality that all forms of protestantism lack Scriptural authority. God never gave anyone authority to break away from the Church He built on Peter. Man took that initiative themselves (hence why what started out as a handful of dissenting protestant religions, further decayed and broke apart into the tens of thousands we see today).

 

[grannymh]

I’m sorry if this sounds rude but I do not have the time nor desire to read articles on the matter. You started the thread “Ask a Pentecostal”. I asked a very good question. Here it is again:

Originally Posted by Steveabrous forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I’m wondering how you reconcile the fact that in the same letter, in fact, the same chapter that Pentecostals quote so much Paul says women should be silent in church. Yet the Pentecostal movement seems to ignore that part?"

I didn’t ask to read articles on the subject. Could you please just give me a simple answer.

I do not know if this is the simple answer you are requesting. But I noticed a change in subject matter between 1 Corinthians 14: 33a and 1 Corinthians 14: 33b. St. Paul is correcting Corinthian abuses of the ministry gifts in that the gifts should follow a rule of order. It seems that he shifts from the ministry gifts per se to a new subject which is the current relationship between wives and husbands in church. .

 

[ltwin]

Where do you get the number of 500 million? There are 1.2 billion Catholics and about 230 million EO. That’s 1.43 billion out of a total of about 2.2 billion Christians. There are 350 million mainline Protestants. There are 274 million members of modern Protestantism which would include Pentecostalism at 130 million. That doesn’t seem even close to 500 million. I must admit you are brave starting one of these threads, it must be time consuming. Thank you for your contributions to CAF.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

I edit Wikipedia, so I will give you a tip . . . Wikipedia is not a reliable source for anything.

The 500 million is not for classical Pentecostalism alone. It is for all Pentecostals and charismatic Christians. Charismatic Christians include those Christians in mainline Protestant and the Catholic Church who participate in the Charismatic Renewal.

According to a Pew Forum analysis of estimates from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are about 279 million pentecostal Christians and 305 million charismatic Christians in the world. (See Defining Christian Movements on page 69.) This means that, according to this analysis, pentecostal and charismatic Christians together make up about 27% of all Christians and more than 8% of the world’s total population.

(Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life (December 19, 2011,), Global Christianity: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World’s Christian Population, p. 67.)

My point is that 500 million Christians, whether they are Pentecostals, Charismatic Protestants, or Charismatic Catholics, believe that speaking in tongues is a gift for today that is commonly available for those who are open to it.

That is not a “tiny minority” as the poster stated.

 

[ltwin]

Could you clarify how phophecy works within Pentacostalism?

In the popular imagination, prophecy is akin to fortune telling or the propagation of new and strange doctrines and revelations. That’s not really what prophecy is in Pentecostalism. Most of the time when someone prophesies it is according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:3, “the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.”

Sometimes this could mean revealing something that God might have in store for a person. For example, David du Plessis, a Pentecostal leader in the early charismatic movement, was given a prophecy by Smith Wigglesworth years before the charismatic movement ever began. You can listen to du Plessis’ testimony at this youtube link: David du Plessis Talks On Wigglesworth Prophecy. This is typically how a personal prophecy might work.

How does a Pentacostal know their prophesy does not suspercede the teaching of the Apostles?

Because we know that God never lies. We know that God has already given us His written word recorded in Holy Scripture. Therefore, we know that if something in a prophecy contradicts, denies, or diminishes anything in the word of God that we know then it is false and counterfeit.

Most of the time prophecies are not really “doctrinal” in content. It’s more like God just sharing what is on His mind with the church. For example, there is another youtube video that features tongues and interpretation. The interpretation is an example of prophecy: tongues with interpretation.

In the video, the message in tongues begins about 1:49. Notice how the speaker is lead to pause what he is saying and there is this natural opening in the service. Then you began to hear someone speaking in an unknown tongues around 2:05. The message in tongues ends around 3:45. There is a pause of a few seconds while people wait for someone with the interpretation. Around 4:07, the person with the interpretation stands up and begins speaking.

This is typically how a congregational prophecy might look like.

 

[ltwin]

I’m sorry if this sounds rude but I do not have the time nor desire to read articles on the matter. You started the thread “Ask a Pentecostal”. I asked a very good question. Here it is again:

I didn’t ask to read articles on the subject. Could you please just give me a simple answer.

Well excuse me. I thought I was doing you a favor giving you resources that could frame the issue a lot better than I could. But if you want me to answer then I will.

Pentecostals start at Pentecost. On the day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2, the Spirit is poured out. Peter speaks to the people explaining to them what is going on. He says,

*“Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’*

Combined with this fact that the Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh and that both men and women prophesy, speaking out the word of God, Pentecostals know by experience that the Lord gifts men and women for ministry and that He calls both men and women for ministries. We know that Paul served with women. 1 Corinthians 14 then must be explained. Women were not forbidden to speak in regards to prayer or prophecy, because earlier he gave instructions on how women should cover their head while prophesying (1 Cor. 11:2-16). There must be another explanation for what Paul was forbidding. Most likely it was a local situation in which there were disturbances caused by women calling questions out to their husbands in church. Given the dysfunction already present in the Corinthian church with people giving entire messages in tongues with no interpretation, women carrying on conversations during church doesn’t sound all that surprising. In any case, Paul tells them, “If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home.” Paul was dealing with a dysfunctional church and trying to impose order on it.

 

[ltwin]

Hi Itwin,

You state that you were baptized in the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, my question is: Is speaking in tongues a gift of the Holy Spirit?

Classical Pentecostal theology has traditionally made a distinction between speaking in tongues as evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit (one’s prayer language) and the gift of tongues (when one is given messages for the edification of others). They are not different in essence (both are unknown languages) only different in purpose (one is for private edification and one is for the edification of others). Every Christian has a potential prayer language, but not every Christian can operate in a gift of tongues.

However, they are both gifts in the general sense of the word because both come from God and we do nothing to “deserve” them.

 

[ltwin]

Ok.So if Scripture does not teach it,then how can one state Purgatory is false, if Scripture is their only means of making such a determination? I sense a contradiction in your argument or position.

It’s not a contradiction. We have no reason based on Scripture to teach the existence of purgatory (unless by purgatory we mean our existence on earth now). What we find in Scripture is indications that those who have died in Christ are in the presence of Christ.

 

[Steveabrous]

Well excuse me. I thought I was doing you a favor giving you resources that could frame the issue a lot better than I could. But if you want me to answer then I will.

Pentecostals start at Pentecost. On the day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2, the Spirit is poured out. Peter speaks to the people explaining to them what is going on. He says,

*“Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’*

Combined with this fact that the Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh and that both men and women prophesy, speaking out the word of God, Pentecostals know by experience that the Lord gifts men and women for ministry and that He calls both men and women for ministries. We know that Paul served with women. 1 Corinthians 14 then must be explained. Women were not forbidden to speak in regards to prayer or prophecy, because earlier he gave instructions on how women should cover their head while prophesying (1 Cor. 11:2-16). There must be another explanation for what Paul was forbidding. Most likely it was a local situation in which there were disturbances caused by women calling questions out to their husbands in church. Given the dysfunction already present in the Corinthian church with people giving entire messages in tongues with no interpretation, women carrying on conversations during church doesn’t sound all that surprising. In any case, Paul tells them, “If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home.” Paul was dealing with a dysfunctional church and trying to impose order on it.

I don’t know of any passage that describes Paul serving along side women in a Pastoral fashion, and I don’t quite buy the explaination. I believe Men are the only ones who are called to Pastoral ministry. that’s not to say women do not have a ministorial role, obviously nuns have ministries. But I believe the passage says they should be silent in church and that’s what it means.

But, No biggie. I to respect your opinion on the matter, though I disagree.

 

[ltwin]

I don’t know of any passage that describes Paul serving along side women in a Pastoral fashion, and I don’t quite buy the explaination.

Philippians 4:2-3:
I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord. Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

In Romans 16:3-16, Paul greets a number of his “fellow workers in Christ Jesus” several of them women, such as Prisca and Aquila. Other women are mentioned as workers in the Gospel as well. In Romans 16:1, Paul identifies Phoebe as a deacon of the church at Cenchreae.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Question for the OP.

I have heard people speaking in tongues before many times. In non-denominational churches, on television, I have even heard relatives of mine supposedly speaking in tongues. I believe that it could be from God. as written in The Bible. However, I have yet to hear anyone try to interpret what someone has spoke in tongues. That seems a little convenient to me. If speaking in tongues is so prevalent now and evidence of the Spirit, why does it seem that interpretation is not as prevalent?

 

[ltwin]

Question for the OP.

I have heard people speaking in tongues before many times. In non-denominational churches, on television, I have even heard relatives of mine supposedly speaking in tongues. I believe that it could be from God. as written in The Bible. However, I have yet to hear anyone try to interpret what someone has spoke in tongues. That seems a little convenient to me. If speaking in tongues is so prevalent now and evidence of the Spirit, why does it seem that interpretation is not as prevalent?

Quite a leap don’t you think. “I’ve never heard tongues interpreted, therefore there is no interpretation of tongues ever among Pentecostal and charismatic Christians.”

Interpretation of tongues is alive and well. Please refer to posts:

number 111, page 8 where I explain the customary procedure in a Pentecostal church of tongues and interpretation. You will also find a link to a youtube video that illustrates it.

number 64, page 5 where I explain the Pentecostal distinction between “prayer in tongues” and a “message in tongues.”

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Quite a leap don’t you think. “I’ve never heard tongues interpreted, therefore there is no interpretation of tongues ever among Pentecostal and charismatic Christians.”

Interpretation of tongues is alive and well. Please refer to posts:

number 111, page 8 where I explain the customary procedure in a Pentecostal church of tongues and interpretation. You will also find a link to a youtube video that illustrates it.

number 64, page 5 where I explain the Pentecostal distinction between “prayer in tongues” and a “message in tongues.”

Whoa there. I never said since I never heard it, it does not exist. That still does not answer my question of why so much speaking in tongues and not so much interpretation. Also, who makes sure that the prophesies interpreted come true? Since we know that if someone makes a prophecy and it does not come true, they are a false prophet.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Most of the time prophecies are not really “doctrinal” in content. It’s more like God just sharing what is on His mind with the church.

What has God had to say to your congregation recently?