Ask a pentecostal.

[KingJohn]

KingJohn,

I would like to say as well that if the Bible is meant to help guide us. It seems contrary that there are dozens of verses that indicate and clearly dictate baptize upon belief in Christ. Wouldn’t there be some verses just as plain indicating otherwise. Maybe a story if someone being baptized years after becoming a Christian? Maybe stories if groups who decided never to be baptized?

Even the reformers, Luther, Calvin, Zuigli, and the Anabaptists acknowledged the necessity of baptism.

It was not really until the big tent revival days in America that baptism fell out if favor. (Too time consuming, too big a commitment)

Yet, Baptism is not a necessity for SAL-VA-TION according to my belief system. In due time I will get baptized, but I must gather myself first. I must think.

I’m a thinker. I like to think a lot. So, eventually once I can, I will consider baptism. Why? I don’t want to be disobidient.

 

[Jon_S_1]

“In the Bible you’ll never find a witch fighting another witch. You’ll never find a demon fighting against another Demon. Yet, when you look at Church folk, you see Preachers fighting against preachers and Methodists fighting against Baptists, and Baptists fighting against Methodists. We need order! Order in the house, order in the house!” -T.D. Jakes.

Exactly why Chrust founded an authoritative church. The only way Matt 18 can work is if there is one true church with the authority of God.

15 “If your brother or sister** sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”**

 

[KingJohn]

Can you tell me how Acts 2:41 is misinterpreted? How is the Greek misused there?

You used it in a misinterpitated stance. To understand we must translate the Greek language and understand it, which I did do in my posts. I’ve provided evidence contrary to the claim that Baptism is needed for Salvation. I’m waiting for that to be debunked.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yet, Baptism is not a necessity for SAL-VA-TION according to my belief system. In due time I will get baptized, but I must gather myself first. I must think.

I’m a thinker. I like to think a lot. So, eventually once I can, I will consider baptism. Why? I don’t want to be disobidient.

Is this verse in your bible ?

1 Peter 3:21

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Or this one

Acts 22:16

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Or this one:

Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

[po18guy]

“In the Bible you’ll never find a witch fighting another witch. You’ll never find a demon fighting against another Demon. Yet, when you look at Church folk, you see Preachers fighting against preachers and Methodists fighting against Baptists, and Baptists fighting against Methodists. We need order! Order in the house, order in the house!” -T.D. Jakes.

Yet, even the educated, literate (extremely rare in those days) Ethiopian Eunuch could not understand the scriptures until Philip was sent to him with the authority to interpret (Acts 8:26-35). This is also shown in Nehemiah 8:5-8. Ezra had the levites not only read the scriptures, but also interpret them. Why do this if scripture is clear? And, you will note that Ezra, those under him, and Philip had the authority to interpret. Who does today?

Possession of a bible confers no interpretive authority whatsoever. If it does, then Catholics win by default because they have more scripture. But, isn’t that a silly argument?

And, what was the very first thing the eunuch did after accepting Jesus?

He was baptized.

 

[po18guy]

Is this verse in your bible ?

1 Peter 3:21

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Or this one

Acts 22:16

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Or this one:

Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

"Well, the ‘Holy Spirit’ tells me that it may say that, but what it realy means is …"

You know the rest.

 

[Jon_S_1]

You used it in a misinterpitated stance. To understand we must translate the Greek language and understand it, which I did do in my posts. I’ve provided evidence contrary to the claim that Baptism is needed for Salvation. I’m waiting for that to be debunked.

No you completely glossed over the fact that the people standing there listening and accepting the message were in fact baptized.

Acts 2:41

41 οἱ μὲν οὖν ἀποδεξάμενοι τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ ἐβαπτίσθησαν καὶ προσετέθησαν ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ ψυχαὶ ὡσεὶ τρισχίλιαι.

41 oi men oun apodexamenoi ton logon autou ebaptisqhsan kai proseteqhsan en th hmera ekeinh yucai wsei trisciliai

Oi: Oh
Men pun: therefore
Apondexamenoi: to welcome, accept, receive; acknowledge, acclaim
Ton logon: to make an official announcement
Autou: here there
ebaptisqhsan: they were [all] baptized/ were immersed.

 

[po18guy]

Yet, Baptism is not a necessity for SAL-VA-TION according to my belief system. In due time I will get baptized, but I must gather myself first. I must think.

I’m a thinker. I like to think a lot. So, eventually once I can, I will consider baptism. Why? I don’t want to be disobidient.

If you think, you question. Please then question your current belief system, as it disagrees with scripture! The first thing every new believer did was get baptized! You are not the thief on the cross. This is not an area where you should over think. This is an area where you should submit. The Pharisees refused even John’s baptism, and Jesus condemned them seven-fold. Don’t think - act!

 

[KingJohn]

Is this verse in your bible ?

1 Peter 3:21

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Or this one

Acts 22:16

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Or this one:

Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I’l quote my argument again

The grammatical evidence surrounding this verse and the preposition eis are clear that while both views on this verse are well within the context and the range of possible meanings of the passage, the majority of the evidence is in favor that the best possible definition of the word “for” in this context is either “because of” or “in regard to” and not “in order to get.” Therefore, Acts 2:38, when interpreted correctly, does not teach that baptism is required for salvation.

My Bible says this:

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your

Luke 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I also believe by the grace of Jesus Christ, by his sacrifice, we can be saved. Good works aren’t responsible for this grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I believe if you keep his commandments, his laws, repent and such you can continue salvation, but some people just lay off repenting and say “I’m fine, I’m fine” when really they’re in the belly of sin, far from Grace.

1 John 2:3-4 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

I believe if you follow Jesus, truly follow him, he gives Eternal life.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

I believe in exchange of being born in God you protect his word, defend it, and the evil one can not touch that person.

1 John 5:4 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

I believe he has already saved us, and we need to accept him as our lord and savior.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

I believe you can become a child of God. by believing and recieving.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

I believe Christ is the only name we can gain salvation under, no exceptions.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Now you know my poistion on salvation and why I think salvation is not mandatory.

 

[KingJohn]

Now, I’m going to sleep. You both may continue to attempt to disprove me by grasping at straws. Night, night!

 

[MJCamp]

Yes. And it’s !? not ! since your asking a question. Yes, we fall into sin, yet I believe we can maintain our salvation through repentence and confessing your sins to JESUS, which the Bible also says.

No, I don’t confess my sins to Priests or to humans. It’s all about Jesus my friend.

Yes, I can see your confusion. Let me explain.

The concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. First, the New Testament does not teach that there are to be priests in the New Covenant. Instead, the New Testament teaches that all believers are priests. First Peter 2:5-9 describes believers as a “holy priesthood” and a “royal priesthood.” Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 both describe believers as “a kingdom of priests.” In the Old Covenant, the faithful had to approach God through the priests.

The priests were mediators between the people and God. The priests offered sacrifices to God on behalf of the people. That is no longer necessary. Because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we can now approach God’s throne with boldness (Hebrews 4:16). The temple veil tearing in two at Jesus’ death was symbolic of the dividing wall between God and humanity being destroyed. We can approach God directly, ourselves, without the use of a human mediator. Why? Because Jesus Christ is our great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-15; 10:21) and the only mediator between us and God (1 Timothy 2:5).

Now, is your confusion cleared up…?

I am confused…priestly duties are reference in scripture. So is the implementation of Holy Orders. Nothing in Catholicism is not backed by scripture and early Church teachings. We’ve been blessed to have centuries of study and critique from some of the great minds of our time.

The Protestant interpretation of Hebrews 7 is contradicted by 1 Peter 2:5-9. Peter says: "like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ . . . But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people . . ."When Peter declares all Christians to be priests, he does not contradict Christ as our “one mediator between God and men,” which is the definition of a priest (1 Tm 2:5). The Catholic Church affirms and harmonizes both texts and both concepts.There are two keys to understanding Hebrews 7.Context: The inspired author is showing the superiority of Christ’s priesthood in contrast with the Old Covenant priesthood. He never denies the existence of a New Covenant priesthood.Distinction: Christians do not usurp or diminish the unique priesthood of Christ when they are made to be priests. Unlike Old Covenant priests, they participate in the one priesthood of Christ. So intimate is the union of the baptized with Christ that St. Paul describes it as a body (cf. Rom 12:5,1 Cor 12:12-27) with Christ as its head (cf. Eph 1:22-23). What can be attributed to a hand in the body does not somehow take away from the head. It is Christ who empowers all Christians to participate in his priesthood. Indeed, it is “Christ [and his priesthood] living in them” (cf. Gal 2:20).First Peter 2 indicates that all Christians are priests—but it does not mention the existence of a ministerial priesthood. Indeed, the ordained ministers of the New Covenant are called apostles (cf. Eph. 4:11), presbyters (cf. Jas 5:14), bishops (cf. 1 Tm 3:1), and deacons (cf. 1 Tm 3:8ff), but never priests (Gk.hiereus). So how do Catholics demonstrate the existence of a ministerial priesthood distinct from the universal priesthood?First of all, a careful reading of 1 Peter 2, verses 5 and 9 reveals a reference to Exodus 19:6: “. . . and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” This text from Exodus indicates a universal priesthood in the Old Testament. And yet, in Exodus 19:22, we read, "And also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves . . . " In other words, a universal priesthood in the Old Covenant did not exclude the possibility of a distinct ministerial priesthood as well. It would be natural then to expect the same in the New Covenant. And indeed, that is precisely what we discover.We should not be surprised that the noun “priest” (Gk.hiereus) was not used as a title for New Covenant ministers: This same term was used by the more numerous Jewish and even pagan priests of the first century (cf. Lk 1:8-9, Acts 14:13). Using different titles for New Covenant priests would be one way of distinguishing them. However, the verb form ofhiereusis used for New Testament ministers. It is found when Paul speaks specifically of his ministry as an apostle, referring to it as a “priestly service”: ". . . because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service (Gk.hierourgounta) of the gospel of God…" (Rom 15:15b-16a).Here we see a central clue to the priestly nature of New Covenant ministers that becomes more and more telling as we traverse Scripture. New Covenant ministers reveal their essence as priests by their priestly functions. We do not find this priestly function ascribed to deacons, but we do in the cases of apostles, bishops, and “elders.” In this brief analysis, we will only consider apostles and "elders."In Scripture, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as priests, or “mediators between God and men.” For example, after the Resurrection, our Lord appears to the apostles and says to them: “‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’” (Jn 20:21-23).Here, Jesus communicated the power to forgive and retain sins—just as he himself had done—to the apostles. This is apriestly*ministry (see also Lv 19:21-22).

 

[MJCamp]

Oh no, much greater now.

Why do you reject Holy Scripture that says in John chapter 20:21-22

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Please tell me how the Apostles forgave sins never told to them?

Or how about James 5:14-16

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Do you do anything like this?

If not why not? It’s in the Bible to call on the elders to pray over you, to anoint with oil, to hear their sins and confess.

Yet you reject it and rely in your own comfort and knowledge.

More examples of ministerial priesthood in ancient times.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. First, the New Testament does not teach that there are to be priests in the New Covenant.

Now, is your confusion cleared up…?

Whoa, let’s just slow down a bit. Because you don’t agree with an interpretation, does not make a ‘concept,’ doctrine is a more appropriate word, non biblical. We can provide scriptures that support confession.

Christ, speaking only to those He chose and appointed, told them, ‘Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ These men were the authority over His Church. He did not teach this, or the bind and loose doctrine to the multitudes. One has to read in context, and a part of context is exactly what was said to whom. When He was alone with His Apostles, He gave specific instructions, with multitudes teachings not so specific. Scriptures even states, ‘Mar 4:34 And without parable he did not speak unto them; but apart, he explained all things to his disciples.’

Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

As I tried to explain once before, you have opened a lot of topics in one thread; too many to address any properly. Laundry list of ‘objections’ is not a way to discuss theology ‘intellectually.’

Also, love and charity in all things. You seem to be taking a ‘tone’ with some questions; a tone of condescension at the very least. Respect, requires respect.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m going to write a few paragraphs to litterily rip apart your argument, so stand by.

I thought you said you didn’t come to ‘debate?’ Now, you’re going to ‘rip apart your argument?’ By what authority is you interpretation correct over all others?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What’s a charismatic Catholic?

If they believe the Church is the only way to Heaven, I have no interest in even pondering it.

Aren’t you explaining your view is the only way to heaven?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I respect Catholic beliefs. However, I do not accept the view that outside of the Church people are condemed.

I went to my local Catholic church, the lady herself said that if you don’t join the Church you don’t go to hell. She was very nice and made me consider Catholicism. But, when I see almost everyone on this site say “If you do not join the Church you condem yourself” it just makes me…Ugh.

See, you snidely request others go back and read everything, yet overlook the explanation I gave you that Catholics are taught, ‘we cannot know who will go to heaven and who will not.’ There is only one Judge, and He will judge us all.

You really should ask Catholics what we believe, and stop trying to tell us what we believe.

 

[Miriam1947]

See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By enduring to the end…Matt.24:13

Thank you PRmerger.

 

[Jon_S_1]

:
Originally Posted by Jon S
Is this verse in your bible ?

1 Peter 3:21

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Or this one

Acts 22:16

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Or this one:

Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I’l quote my argument again

Quote:
The grammatical evidence surrounding this verse and the preposition eis are clear that while both views on this verse are well within the context and the range of possible meanings of the passage, the majority of the evidence is in favor that the best possible definition of the word “for” in this context is either “because of” or “in regard to” and not “in order to get.” Therefore, Acts 2:38, when interpreted correctly, does not teach that baptism is required for salvation.

Can you please show me where. "The preposition ‘eis’ is regarding baptism (your argument) in these verses? Here is the Greek to help:

1 Peter 3:21
21 ὁ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

The only place eis appears in this verse is at the end, away from baptism; ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, which means “demand toward God”

Acts 22:16

καὶ νῦν τί μέλλεις; ἀναστὰς βάπτισαι καὶ ἀπόλουσαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας σου ἐπικαλεσάμενος τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ.

The word “eis” does not appear in this verse.

Mark 16:16

16 ὁ πιστεύσας καὶ βαπτισθεὶς σωθήσεται, ὁ δὲ ἀπιστήσας κατακριθήσεται

This one does say 'eis" but I can find no lexicon which supports your theory.

Strong’s Concordance: βαπτισθεὶς Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.

NAS Concordence: Baptist (3), baptize (9), baptized (51), baptizes (1), baptizing (10), ceremonially washed (1), undergo (1).

But for fun lets use your interpretation so you can see it makes no difference in this context.

Whoever believes and is baptized because/in regard to/will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Your manipulation of the Greek in this verse, does not hold up at all!!!

Not to mention the other two verses do not even contain the word you claim proves your argument!!!

Try again…

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’l quote my argument again

My Bible says this:

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your

Luke 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I also believe by the grace of Jesus Christ, by his sacrifice, we can be saved. Good works aren’t responsible for this grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I believe if you keep his commandments, his laws, repent and such you can continue salvation, but some people just lay off repenting and say “I’m fine, I’m fine” when really they’re in the belly of sin, far from Grace.

1 John 2:3-4 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

I believe if you follow Jesus, truly follow him, he gives Eternal life.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

I believe in exchange of being born in God you protect his word, defend it, and the evil one can not touch that person.

1 John 5:4 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

I believe he has already saved us, and we need to accept him as our lord and savior.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

I believe you can become a child of God. by believing and recieving.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

I believe Christ is the only name we can gain salvation under, no exceptions.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Now you know my poistion on salvation and why I think salvation is not mandatory.

I am sorry to tell you, I’m sure your shocked, but the Catholic Bible has all these verses too.

We have no problem with any of these verses. We read them coupled with the entire scripture. We don’t twist or explain away, we have a systemic theology. We have a theology which correlated with the teachings of the apostles, a living historic faith that was practiced before the New Testament was written.

Think about this.

you are a professor and started teaching a class on a new field of study. Your students really love your teaching. So much so they go out to teach themselves and after a while thousands are teaching your class. As you get older, you decide to write a book on all you’ve learned and taught to aid future generations.

Now a dispute arises between a new instructor (who only read the book) and the faculty of instructors who were taught by people who went to the class. The person who only read claims the text says x, but everyone else who learned a living tradition from people in practice says y.

Who has a stronger argument?

To be clear you are the reader and the Early Church Fathers are the faculty.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Appearently, there aren’t many pentecostals on this forum and theres’ been major misconceptions.

So, ask me anything.

Were Pentecostals founded by humans?