Ask about Islam

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habibian said:
No. It is not a cop-out. In fact all religious order is from God and we must perform it for God.

On the other hand, it is not a social control. We don’t ask people about their belief. If they just discuss with known people, nobody can prevent them.
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I have a few follow-up questions:
  1. Is announcing on social media that one is an ex-Muslim worthy of punishment (death or otherwise)?
  2. In a similar vein to 1, is looking to officially change from Islam in government documentation worthy of punishment (death or otherwise)? (See the case of Mohammed Hegazy.)
  3. Is suggesting to a person who is Muslim that they should study the matter and decide for themselves what is or is not true regarding religion worthy of punishment (death or otherwise)?
 
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When will the Muslim people stand up and fight against the radical Muslims like ISIS? Your religion has what? A billion followers and the percentage of radicals is less than 1 percent so when will they take charge and bring the sword to them instead of non Muslims? Or your religion wont because you all believe the same thing and if you did you would not be following Allah and the Quran?
 
Concerning apostasy in Islam:

Although the Qur’an speaks of apostasy more than a dozen times; nowhere does it authorise an earthly punishment for abandoning faith. On the contrary, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) reserves for Himself the right to judge such behaviour; and to do so on the Day of Judgement.

It is claimed that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) required the death penalty for apostasy. In order to buttress this claim, certain folk refer to a number of aḥādīth; the best known being:

‘Ibn Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.”’ (Sahih Al-Bukhari).

I opine that the Prophet said no such thing; and that this ḥādīth – and others like it – was fabricated to support corrupt rulers and governments; and is now being employed for that very purpose.

Here are my reasons:

The Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (written by him, some may say) over a period of approximately 23 years; beginning when he was 40, and concluding in the year of his death. At no time was he authorised (or gave himself authority, some may say) to judge, or to execute, apostates. On the contrary, the Qur’an makes it perfectly clear that his role was to convey the message – to preach and teach the Faith, as expressed in the Qur’an – and nothing more. He was not to impose it by force:

‘Ask those who were given the Scripture, as well as those without one: “Do you too devote yourselves to Him alone?” If they do, they will be guided, but if they turn away, your only duty is to convey the message. Allāh is aware of His servants.’ (Al-‘Imran: 18-20; my emphasis). See also Al-Kahf: 29; Al-Ma’ida: 92.

In short, if the Prophet – who never ordered the death of a single person for apostasy – truly believed (and taught) that apostates must be killed, then why is this teaching not found in the Qur’an?

Apostasy laws are enforced for political rather than religious reasons. Autocratic religious states (and organisations) have always used the threat of punishment as a means of control.

All Muslims consider the Qur’an to be the very the word of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla). This is why it is considered to be the primary and supreme source of jurisprudence in Islam. The Sunnah (the practice of Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) comes next. Both leave no doubt that apostasy – of itself – is not punishable by death. The only justification for punishing an apostate is when that person goes on to commit a criminal offence – such as murder; theft; treason; or some form of war crime.
 
Concerning Asia Bibi’s alleged blasphemy against the Prophet:

The Qur’an lists a number of capital crimes; crimes that undermine the moral fabric of the Islamic community as a whole. Such crimes are known collectively as ḥirābah.

In Islamic law, ḥirābah form a category comprising armed robbery with violence; murder; rape; and terrorism.

The essential hallmark of ḥirābah is that they are intended to instil fear into the general community; to ‘corrupt the earth’.

Insulting the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) may well instil revulsion – even anger – in the listener; but not fear…not terror. It is not of the ḥirābah, and carries no death penalty in the Qur’an; indeed, no earthly penalty at all.

Shemeem Burney Abbas writes:

‘At times the Prophet’s adversaries compared him to the poets of the desert as if he were a man possessed or mad and his Qur’anic revelations madness. His anguish emanated from the ridicule cast on him, aggravated by his unlettered status, the denying of his message of social justice and human rights, his wisdom, and his sensitivity…Muhammad received solace from God…Sometimes the comfort Muhammad received was about retribution in the hereafter…The Qur’anic evidence indicates that Muhammad was counselled to leave justice to the Almighty. He was never commanded to bring blasphemy punishments against his perpetrators; he was to seek only mercy and forgiveness for them.’ (‘Pakistan’s Blasphemy Laws: From Islamic Empires to the Taliban.’; my emphasis).

We have to ask ourselves: If the Prophet wished to execute those who insulted him, then why is there no Qur’anic authority for him to do so?
 
Concerning Heaven:

The Qur’an refers to Heaven as ‘al-janna’, meaning ‘the garden’. It is the home of the righteous; the home of Peace.

Professor M.A.S. Abdel Haleem writes of al-janna:

‘In these pleasing surroundings stand ‘good, peaceful homes’ (9:72) with ‘lofty dwellings built for them, one above the other, graced with flowing streams’ (39:20). There are detailed descriptions of these goodly dwellings (e.g. 55:52–72; 56:15–34; and 88:13–16) – raised couches upholstered in brocade, goblets placed ready, cushions arranged and carpets outspread. We see the dwellers in pleasant company: ‘they will enter perpetual gardens, along with their righteous ancestors, spouses, and descendants’ (13:23; and 52:20–1) adorned in green silk. They sit on couches in a relaxed manner, engaged in pleasant conversation, recalling happy memories, absorbed in rejoicing; their faces shining, laughing and joyous (80:38–9).

‘There is no overt mention in the Qur’an of sex taking place between spouses in janna, although the relationship is lawful between spouses and the Qur’an does not shy away from mentioning it in the context of this world. The mutual love (‘uruban) between spouses in the garden (56:37–8) epitomises the most fulfilling aspect of the relationship between spouses as expressed in the Qur’an: Another of His signs is that He created spouses from among yourselves for you to live with in tranquillity: He ordained love and kindness between you (30:21).’

‘Part of God’s blessing on the righteous is that they will be joined in paradise with the righteous of their parents, spouses (azwāj) and offspring (13:23)…… Al-Janna is not the home of ‘believing men’ only but also of ‘believing women’. (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’; my emphasis).

Concerning the ḥūr:

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) says: ‘Those mindful of Allāh will be in a safe place amid Gardens and springs, clothed in silk and fine brocade, facing one another: and We shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes.’ (Al-Dukhan: 52-54).

The text ‘We shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ renders: ‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

We find the same assurance in sūrah ‘Al-Tur: 20’: ‘And We shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ (‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin’).

Biḥūrin comes from ‘ḥūri’; and applies to both sexes.

In short, men will marry fair companions who are female; and women will marry fair companions who are male.
 
False aḥādīth have no place in Islamic law.

If the penalty for apostasy is death, then why does the Qur’an not say so? This is a question that must be answered.

Easy enough for the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to have included such a penalty in the text- if that is what he truly believed - assuming, as you may do, that he is the author of the Qur’an.
 
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This does not address his presentation? Did this Muslim aggression as he illustrates take place or not?
 
Niblo said:
If the penalty for apostasy is death, then why does the Qur’an not say so? This is a question that must be answered
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is everything in the hadith in the Koran? if it was why do you need the hadith?

how does one know which sayings are false in the hadith?

is the hadith a foundation of Islam or not? is it a part of sharia law or not.
 
buffalo said:
How do Muslims answer this long history of aggression and slavery?
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I’m sorry, but how is this a valid question at all?

If I asked you how Christians answered their long history of anti-Semitism, Americans their history of segregation and slavery, etc…would you seriously post a reply?

I wouldn’t, and I wouldn’t expect you to. This is because this sort of question is not valid at all; it’s just a silly attempt to demonise and discredit an entire group of people by purposely treating them like an undifferentiated mass that all behave in the same way, which is not true at all.

I’m telling you this as a fellow Catholic-next time you feel like springing a “gotcha” card at another faith group, try for a more clever approach. Maybe something that’s slightly logical would do.
 
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Salibi said:
This is because this sort of question is not valid at all; it’s just a silly attempt to demonise and discredit an entire group of people by purposely treating them like an undifferentiated mass that all behave in the same way, which is not true at all.
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I have not heard the heads of the faith denounce these things and tell every Muslim not to do it. If they are the religion of peace they need to show it. You are aware of what is happening to Christians in the Middle East right?
 
buffalo said:
I have not heard the heads of the faith denounce these things and tell every Muslim not to do it. I
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Maybe you should listen better. I’ve seen and heard plenty of imams denounce these things.

Secondly, Islam doesn’t have a head of religion. That office died with the caliphs. Muslim mosques operate mostly on their own; plenty of their imams have denounced fundamentalism.
buffalo said:
You are aware of what is happening to Christians in the Middle East right?
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I am from the Middle East, and I kindly ask you not to use the suffering of Middle Eastern Christians to justify bigotry and ignorance. Fundamentalist Islam is a force of evil; but Muslims are not all fundamentalists. Painting Muslims with a broad fundamentalist brush is inaccurate and counterproductive, and I don’t see any point in engaging in it, other than indulging in hatred.
 
buffalo said:
Please share
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I’m telling you about the heads of congregations of ordinary Muslims, which is obviously not going to be reported on in a citable source. Furthermore, the majority of my Muslim acquaintances, from my grocer to my barber; my friends, classmates, and neighbors, are not fundamentalists and think fundamentalist Islam is a perverse misinterpretation.

I think you’d be well-served to visit a mosque and converse with ordinary Muslims. Your view that Muslims are all fundamentalists is not rooted in reality. I’m telling you this based on personal experience. You are conflating fundamentalists with ordinary, normal Muslims, and that’s just plain inaccurate.

Good day. I will be muting this thread now, as I have said everything that I wanted to say.
 
Salibi said:
Your view that Muslims are all fundamentalists is not rooted in reality
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Right, no public citations. I would be more convinced if I heard all the Inmans publicly condemn such actions and the ultimate goal of Islam.

I asked you for an estimate of how many are fundamentalists?
 
Niblo said:
False aḥādīth have no place in Islamic law.
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Would it be fair to say:
  1. The Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim both state that the penaly for apostasy is death?
  2. Those two Hadith collections are considered true by Sunni Muslims?
  3. That a majority of judges/jurists for Islam until more recently have said that the penalty for apostasy is death, and even some of those who say death is not warranted that some earthly punishment is needed?
 
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