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So you ignore the fact that Jesus says some will believe that will subsequently fall away (Luke 8:13) in favor of your interpretation of this verse. Couldn’t this verse also mean that those who persevere in the faith will never be lost?
paul c, sorry, had to clip some things. To answer your response to 1 John 2:19, note the following:
John 8:31-32 NASB 31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Perseverence is an evidence that someone is truly one of the elect (sheep). In John 8:31, the word “abide” is commonly used in the translations, which means continuance.
2 John 1:9 NASB
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
I repeat this (many times on the first “assurance” thread perseverence has been described as a true evidence of a person who is indeed a sheep of Jesus) just to emphasize that the 1 John 2:19 is not a verse in isolation - those who do not persevere were never drawn by the Father and given to Jesus (John 6:37-40,44). Those the Father gives to Jesus will, of course, persevere. They are the elect or sheep, the true disciples who will persevere and will be “raised up on the last day” (that is what Jesus explicitly says, isn’t it? - John 6:37-40).
Clearly from Scripture there is a “belief” someone may say they have and they tell to others, but it proves to be no true belief at all because there is later a rejection of Christ - that “believer” does not persevere in the faith.
And there sometimes are false believers who think they will go to heaven when they die.
Matthew 7:21-23 ESV 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
We have the important word “never” - why? They were never really a Christian at any time! They weren’t “born again” and then committed a mortal sin. No, they were “never” a true believer because Jesus never knew them (they were never one of the sheep).
Of course, this also answers
Luke 8:13 ESV “And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.” What happened? They didn’t persevere in the time of testing, so their mere profession of belief and perhaps brief fellowship with believers in the Church was a “said faith” as opposed to a “real faith” - the book of James provides clear teaching on “said faith” vs “real (or demonstrated) faith.”
Prayer for Believers is very common. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. A few examples:
“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”
John 17:9, KJV
“Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;”
Romans 15:30, KJV
“Pray without ceasing . . . Brethren, pray for us.”
1 Thessalonians 5:17, 25, KJV
“Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:”
2 Thessalonians 3:1, KJV
“Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.”
Hebrews 13:18, KJV
We pray for believers, for their spiritual growth, for them to recognize their sin and for their strength to keep from sinning.
You need to answer Php 1:6 and John 10:28 - what you have given doesn’t deal with what those verses are stating.
Philippians is written to believers, and in 1:6 Paul specifically says **“And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” ESV **
And the context surrounding John 10:28 is clear enough. Jesus, the “Good Shepherd” tells the Jews they they are not among His sheep, but His sheep hear Him and they have eternal life and will never perish. Here is more for context.
John 10:24-30 ESV 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Isn’t it true that the Greek is very emphatic in John 10:28, so the verse explicitly says His sheep will never perish, not now or at any future time? That is consistent with the idea of a Good Shepherd not losing any sheep, and is consistent with the idea that the Father gives Him the elect and Jesus will never lose any of the elect (John 6:37-40,44) because Jesus will always do the will of the Father.
I don’t think mortal sin doctrine supports Php 1:6 or John 10:28 or the other verses I’ve written about here. If I ever become a Catholic, those are verses I will have to be able to explain.
Regards, OldProf
