Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[pablope]

Except the requirements are also fulfilled in sacraments, particularily confession, and having faith in what the CC teaches on forgiveness. Why is it presumption to have faith in what the CC teaches -you must be in state of grace ? Is it too vague ? Just to love can be vague too.

Again, is it presumptuous to know your sins are forgiven and you are back in the state of grace after Confession ?

Pardon me Poco…let me clear up your statement…are you asking that after confession, we are to presume we are forgiven?

A Catholic will go to confession because he/she has convicted himself/herself of sin and have a desire to do right by God and ask, in all humility, to be forgive. And when the priest says the absolution, we are not presuming, we are sure we have been forgiven.

Think about this…in Job 42:

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

Question: Why did God tell or order Eliphaz and his friends to go through Job to be forgiven?

Or here in 2sam 12:

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

Why did God need to send Nathan to David? Why does David say to Nathan he has sinned, and then Nathan pronounces the absolution?

Do you think in this passage, David did not think he was forgiven/

 

[mackbrislawn]

Very well said ! After 4 yrs now a convert, I can truthfully say that Catholics ‘live’ life with more SA, than many Protestants …who talk a good game/race.

Our lives lived … are the true measure of the Heart within. And, if that heart is One with Christ’s…a Bosom friendship, then we sleep soundly as a baby.

Quite true. Devout children do not worry about being disinherited by their father.

 

[pocohombre]

]Pardon me Poco…let me clear up your statement…are you asking that after confession, we are to presume we are forgiven?

No. I asked if it was presumptuous, knowing you would properly say it is not. I would then ask why would it then be presumptuous for the forgiven, graced soul to go to heaven (if he were to die right after the confession) ?

… the priest says the absolution, we are not presuming, we are sure we have been forgiven.

To be consistent then you should be sure you would go to heaven immediately thereafter, presumption not being the better option just like with absolution after confession.

Do you think in this passage, David did not think he was forgiven

Agree. Again there are passages to help with salvation assurance. also

 

[pocohombre]

Quite true. Devout children do not worry about being disinherited by their father.

Again, it is not a question of worrying but about being assured. Is that more pious, not to worry but also not to be assured ? Yes, devout children are assured of being one with the Father.

 

[paul_c]

No. I asked if it was presumptuous, knowing you would properly say it is not. I would then ask why would it then be presumptuous for the forgiven, graced soul to go to heaven (if he were to die right after the confession) ?

To be consistent then you should be sure you would go to heaven immediately thereafter, presumption not being the better option just like with absolution after confession.

Agree. Again there are passages to help with salvation assurance. also

Again. You are missing the point. Catholics do not think in terms of eliciting salvation guarantees from God. Who are we to demand anything from our maker? On earth, we do our best to love . At the last judgment, we will acknowledge our sins, and ask for His mercy. And we will humbly accept His right judgment, whatever it may be. If we are condemned, we will understand that it is our fault. If we enter heaven, it will be by His mercy.

 

[pocohombre]

There are two wills involved: God’s will and man’s will. If only God’s will were involved then free will would not be possible, and therefore neither would sin be possible. God’s will is that none should perish; His forgiveness is freely lavished upon His creation. But His creation isn’t forced to accept it-and can always reject His forgiveness, His Grace, Himself, at any point along the way.

The wildcard is us, not Him, and this is why humility is called for in assessing one’s fate vis a vis our eternal destiny; in recognition of our weakness. God won’t force us to be saved anymore than He forced Adam to refrain from falling to begin with. And scripture is chock full of admonitions for believers to remain faithfully living in the Spirit, lest they fall and lose their way again.

Having assurance does not do away with free will unless you are a rare strict Calvinist. Secondly, I believe St. Paul says we have two wills ourselves, warring against each other. They are the old carnal man and the new inner man in Christ. The old man at death and judgement (some would say purgatory) will be burned up . The new man has the Lord as the author and finisher of himself and his his faith. The only wild card is if one commits the unpardonable sin, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which a true Christian can not do. I don’t think Jesus ever said, “Depart from for I knew you but not anymore.” Even when some of His disciples left him after the discourse about eating His flesh scripture says Jesus knew they did not believe “from the beginning”. Apparently they were disciples on the outside but not really.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Again, it is not a question of worrying but about being assured. Is that more pious, not to worry but also not to be assured ? Yes, devout children are assured of being one with the Father.

Devout children of God do not worry because they are assured that their Father will keep his promises.

 

[paul_c]

Having assurance does not do away with free will unless you are a rare strict Calvinist. Secondly, I believe St. Paul says we have two wills ourselves, warring against each other. They are the old carnal man and the new inner man in Christ. The old man at death and judgement (some would say purgatory) will be burned up . The new man has the Lord as the author and finisher of himself and his his faith. The only wild card is if one commits the unpardonable sin, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which a true Christian can not do. I don’t think Jesus ever said, “Depart from for I knew you but not anymore.” Even when some of His disciples left him after the discourse about eating His flesh scripture says Jesus knew they did not believe “from the beginning”. Apparently they were disciples on the outside but not really.

Do you think God owes you the assurance of heaven for your faith in Him? Will you humbly accept it if He finds you wanting, or will you feel cheated by the all powerful and Just God?

 

[fhansen]

Having assurance does not do away with free will unless you are a rare strict Calvinist. Secondly, I believe St. Paul says we have two wills ourselves, warring against each other. They are the old carnal man and the new inner man in Christ. The old man at death and judgement (some would say purgatory) will be burned up . The new man has the Lord as the author and finisher of himself and his his faith. The only wild card is if one commits the unpardonable sin, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which a true Christian can not do. I don’t think Jesus ever said, “Depart from for I knew you but not anymore.”

The point is that they thought He knew them. The goats, as well, thought they were just fine. IOW, Jesus knows who His sheep are, but we can fool ourselves; we put the cart ahead of the horse when we presume too easily to know what God, alone, can know.

Add to that the fuller counsel of scripture, with its many admonitions, to believers, to be vigilant, refrain from sin, do good, keep oil in their lamps, live in the spirit, remain in Christ, be perfect, be holy, feed the poor, clothe the naked, strive, persevere, invest their talents, let their lamp shine, be unashamed of the gospel, etc, etc, generally with the loss of the kingdom at stake for not heeding these warnings, and we find that, while assurance at some level is called for, 100% certainty is presumptuous, arrogant, and foolish.

Even Paul, in Phil 3:7-14, tells us that he was striving for, but hadn’t yet attained, the resurrection-eternal life.

 

[pocohombre]

Again. You are missing the point. Catholics do not think in terms of eliciting salvation guarantees from God. Who are we to demand anything from our maker? On earth, we do our best to love . At the last judgment, we will acknowledge our sins, and ask for His mercy. And we will humbly accept His right judgment, whatever it may be. If we are condemned, we will understand that it is our fault. If we enter heaven, it will be by His mercy.

Yikes, I think we are going backwards. The issue is to be settled here. It is too late to do anything later. Today is the day of salvation. Today is the day we acknowledge our sins and ask for mercy, even grace, even salvation. I think the Lord wants us to apprehend more with His gift of faith to us . It reminds me of Mose at the Red Sea, and the Lord said, " Why criest thou to me ? Go forward use your rod…". Was it a semi rebuke/exhortation, for Moses to use what he already had ? Is it like St. Peter walking on the water ? The walking was done by faith in the Lord, eyes on Him. Did Peter then look to himself and say I can not presume to be like Christ and also walk on water , I am a sinful man " . Christ rebukes such humility and calls it little faith.

 

[pocohombre]

The point is that they thought He knew them. The goats, as well, thought they were just fine. IOW, Jesus knows who His sheep are, but we can fool ourselves; we put the cart ahead of the horse when we presume too easily to know what God, alone, can know.

Add to that the fuller counsel of scripture, with its many admonitions, to believers, to be vigilant, refrain from sin, do good, keep oil in their lamps, live in the spirit, remain in Christ, be perfect, be holy, feed the poor, clothe the naked, strive, persevere, invest their talents, let their lamp shine, be unashamed of the gospel, etc, etc, generally with the loss of the kingdom at stake for not heeding these warnings, and we find that, while assurance at some level is called for, 100% certainty is presumptuous, arrogant, and foolish.

Even Paul, in Phil 3:7-14, tells us that he was striving for, but hadn’t yet attained, the resurrection-eternal life.

Understand but the point remains, they were not sheep that turned into goats. Yes, the tares are in amongst the wheat. The 5 foolish virgins were amongst the 5 wise virgins who had oil in the lamps. Jesus never knew the foolish ones. Yes, God knows and we know too, we hear His voice, as only a sheep can. We are to go thru our journey knowing we are not goats, knowing we are wise and have the oil in our lamps, the Spirit in our bosom, knowing, knowing, as St. John exhorts . These passages must be part of our meal. Free will makes it a cafeteria style meal, to apprehend all that He has for us. So I accept your passages of perseverance, humility, love, good works, free will, confession, etc., etc. along with assurance scriptures, election and predestination scriptures…

 

[pablope]

[SIGN]

=pocohombre;10352108]

[/SIGN]

A catholic would not presume…but would expect the just judgement of God and His mercy.

To be consistent then you should be sure you would go to heaven immediately thereafter, presumption not being the better option just like with absolution after confession.

I would not presume but hope…and trust in God’s mercy…if God sends me to purgatory out of His love to further cleanse me…i would be gracious and thank Him endlessly for His mercy.

Agree. Again there are passages to help with salvation assurance. also

From my post…these are really the question I would like you to focus and think about and answer:

Question: From Job 42…Why did God tell or order Eliphaz and his friends to go through Job to be forgiven?

 

[fhansen]

Understand but the point remains, they were not sheep that turned into goats. Yes, the tares are in amongst the wheat. The 5 foolish virgins were amongst the 5 wise virgins who had oil in the lamps. Jesus never knew the foolish ones. Yes, God knows and we know too, we hear His voice, as only a sheep can. We are to go thru our journey knowing we are not goats, knowing we are wise and have the oil in our lamps, the Spirit in our bosom, knowing, knowing, as St. John exhorts . These passages must be part of our meal. Free will makes it a cafeteria style meal, to apprehend all that He has for us. So I accept your passages of perseverance, humility, love, good works, free will, confession, etc., etc. along with assurance scriptures, election and predestination scriptures…

Along with the very real possibility that we can fall away, branches that were grafted in and cut off, thinking all the while that we were were numbered among the elect. What would happen if someone like yourself, who believes absolutely in their salvation today, would be no longer even be concerned about it at some point, say, several years from now? What happens if he were to stop believing?

 

[pocohombre]

Do you think God owes you the assurance of heaven for your faith in Him? Will you humbly accept it if He finds you wanting, or will you feel cheated by the all powerful and Just God?

By grace we are to face that judgement NOW, and whenever I think about it, like now per your good question. It is always back to basics. I have and will be found to be wanting, and His justice is perfect and I deserve Hellfire. Except for one thing, His gift of faith in His propitiation for me/us. So assurance is not owed but given graciously. It is part of the package of having “faith in Him”.

 

[pocohombre]

Along with the very real possibility that we can fall away, branches that were grafted in and cut off, thinking all the while that we were were numbered among the elect. What would happen if someone like yourself, who believes absolutely in their salvation today, would be no longer even be concerned about it at some point, say, several years from now? What happens if he were to stop believing?

Was St. Paul wrong in saying nothing can separate us from the love of Christ ? I stated much earlier I have the free will /capability to denounce Him now and up to the day I die, and yet, it is His will that works in me/us. Anything else is vain presumption…Good nights fellow pilgrims. Lord willing tomorrow some more sharpening.

 

[fhansen]

Was St. Paul wrong in saying nothing can separate us from the love of Christ ? I stated much earlier I have the free will /capability to denounce Him now and up to the day I die, and yet, it is His will that works in me/us. Anything else is vain presumption…Good nights fellow pilgrims. Lord willing tomorrow some more sharpening.

It’s vain presumption to know with certainty that you’re necessarily one of the ones whom He’s working in, that you’re one of the ones who’ll persevere rather than fall away, that your free will won’t ultimately lead you astray. All you’re really conceiving of here is a simple truism-that some are written in the Book of Life-that those who will be saved will, um, be saved. The presumption comes with a claim of absolute certainty to know just who those saved ones will be.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Again. You are missing the point. Catholics do not think in terms of eliciting salvation guarantees from God. Who are we to demand anything from our maker? On earth, we do our best to love . At the last judgment, we will acknowledge our sins, and ask for His mercy. And we will humbly accept His right judgment, whatever it may be. If we are condemned, we will understand that it is our fault. If we enter heaven, it will be by His mercy.

You are making two errors in your extrapolations here

1. You are taking God’s exhortations to do His will to mean that assurance of salvation is already guaranteed. The opposite is actually true. We will not gain heaven UNLESS we persevere in doing God’s will.
2. You are interpreting humility (self awareness) to be a lack of faith that marks the reprobate. Instead, recognize that the meek will inherit the land.

You seem to be blocking out what we are sharing with you. Do you at least comprehend why Catholics don’t claim to be saved? Could you paraphrase our position in your own words, even if you disagree with the points. Just want to see whether you are absorbing our rationale…

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Do you think God owes you the assurance of heaven for your faith in Him? Will you humbly accept it if He finds you wanting, or will you feel cheated by the all powerful and Just God?

So now we get back to Saint James. Do you believe him when he says, “Faith without Works is dead?” If so, isn’t it obvious that if you ever stop doing the works of love, your faith has died and you assurance is in vain? If you don’t believe this, what are your reasons for ignoring the biblical passages?

 

[pablope]

A thought just occured to me…what you are seeing as “assurance”…we catholics are seeing as “hope”… when all the sections to of the Bible are taken into account. You are seeing them as assurance because you are limiting what you want to read or look at…

 

[brb3]

pocohombre;10352108:

A thought just occured to me…what you are seeing as “assurance”…we catholics are seeing as “hope”… when all the sections to of the Bible are taken into account. You are seeing them as assurance because you are limiting what you want to read or look at…

Well, in actuality, real world application…yes.
But, many Protestants, esp. Evangelicals, think in terms of certitude, 100 % levels, believing God would never allow them to fall away. Even if they sin, even mortal type sins, …somehow their minds convince them Christ knew about that sin in advance, and forgave them of …back on that day they first confessed and believed.

Been there, made that mistake, & its a slippery slope towards the abyss !!