Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[pablope]

pablope;10354584:

Well, in actuality, real world application…yes.
But, many Protestants, esp. Evangelicals, think in terms of certitude, 100 % levels, believing God would never allow them to fall away. Even if they sin, even mortal type sins, …somehow their minds convince them Christ knew about that sin in advance, and forgave them of …back on that day they first confessed and believed.

Been there, made that mistake, & its a slippery slope towards the abyss

!!



What I have seen is somehow, this part is overlooked:

heb 10:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[brb3]

brb3;10355066:

What I have seen is somehow, this part is overlooked:

heb 10:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Yes, …that got our attention. Some would wonder, not sure how to interpret!

I would read and think …maybe its talking out those who the HS has drawn to make confession, via altar call, or opportunity to pray Sinner’s Prayer …knowing they need to ---- yet they would not respond to God’s’ ‘drawing, invitational’ grace. These I thought, must be the ones it is referring to …not those who did respond affirmatively, and were thereby OSAS. That was the only option I could see …since we were taught by pastors, etc since elementary school, that once we made public decision for Christ…salvation was settled for all time & eternity !!

Yet, as I grew older I learned how gradually, progressively I could fall away, … until I was utterly corrupted, again, belonging to Satan …fully under his spell. I had totally grieved HS, … was unrepentant, unchurched & never thought of God or read Bible for 20 years.

 

[pocohombre]

pablope;10355458:

Yes, …that got our attention. Some would wonder, not sure how to interpret!

I would read and think …maybe its talking out those who the HS has drawn to make confession, via altar call, or opportunity to pray Sinner’s Prayer …knowing they need to ---- yet they would not respond to God’s’ ‘drawing, invitational’ grace. These I thought, must be the ones it is referring to …not those who did respond affirmatively, and were thereby OSAS. That was the only option I could see …since we were taught by pastors, etc since elementary school, that once we made public decision for Christ…salvation was settled for all time & eternity !!

Yet, as I grew older I learned how gradually, progressively I could fall away, … until I was utterly corrupted, again, belonging to Satan …fully under his spell. I had totally grieved HS, … was unrepentant, unchurched & never thought of God or read Bible for 20 years.

Did you make a profession of faith as a youngster ? “Hold on to what you have, lest you lose even that which you do have” , said Jesus. That happens to many. The “having” are seeds on which some actions were taken, and I don’t think they are born again, even with the actions of bapstisms, confirmation, altar call, sinners prayer etc. Some are though, and they do persevere, and bear fruit, and it will be forever. The proof of being born again is in the pudding (fruit), but the pudding does not make one born again.

 

[pablope]

brb3;10355741:

Did you make a profession of faith as a youngster ? "

The proof of being born again is in the pudding (fruit), but the pudding does not make one born again.

What if the pudding or fruit becomes or became spoiled/rotten…is that still proof be being born again?

Also, can the pudding make one to cause to be born again?

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;10359337:

What if the pudding or fruit becomes or became spoiled/rotten…is that still proof be being born again?

Also, can the pudding make one to cause to be born again?

Do you mean what if they don’t persevere ? Then I would say they weren’t saved in the first place. Otherwise any good work /fruit done for Christ does not "go bad’. A fruit is a done deed, past tense. If you stop bearing fruit, then perhaps you were not born again also, and any good deed will serve you nought towards justification…A pudding /fruit does not make one born again. If one is born again he will shows signs of such new life, with fruit.

 

[paul_c]

pablope;10359537:

Do you mean what if they don’t persevere ? Then I would say they weren’t saved in the first place. Otherwise any good work /fruit done for Christ does not "go bad’. A fruit is a done deed, past tense. If you stop bearing fruit, then perhaps you were not born again also, and any good deed will serve you nought towards justification…A pudding /fruit does not make one born again. If one is born again he will shows signs of such new life, with fruit.

Okay. So let’s get this all out on the table. I think this is what you are saying. If not please correct.

If you are born again, you will persevere in good works to the end.
If you fail to persevere in good work (sin), then you weren’t really born again
If you weren’t born again, then you are reprobate and are damned into hell.
So if you find that you sin, you must assume that you are condemned.
In the end, the only way you are assured of your salvation is if you don’t sin.

In practice, That’s not much different than the Catholic Church teaches, except that you can get back in the state of grace through sacramental confession if you sin

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;10360049:

Okay. So let’s get this all out on the table. I think this is what you are saying. If not please correct.

ok

So if you find that you sin, you must assume that you are condemned.

No. but we both agree venial sin types does not damn you, not even mortal if you repent. Regenerated people are not perfect, yet.

In the end, the only way you are assured of your salvation is if you don’t sin.

NO

 

[brb3]

brb3;10355741:

Did you make a profession of faith as a youngster ? “Hold on to what you have, lest you lose even that which you do have” , said Jesus. That happens to many. The “having” are seeds on which some actions were taken, and I don’t think they are born again, even with the actions of bapstisms, confirmation, altar call, sinners prayer etc. Some are though, and they do persevere, and bear fruit, and it will be forever. The proof of being born again is in the pudding (fruit), but the pudding does not make one born again.

Trinitarian baptism at age 9 (after responding to Altar Call in Church Revival), then Confirmation @ 18, ( Protestant Elders, laying on of hands, after Sinner Prayer repentance) – received HS / Enlightenment ( an overpowering experience, lasted 4 yrs)…then slowly fell from grace, over several years, ---- then did rapid fall, Prodigal son style – hit rock bottom.

Recovered via Catholic Church & amazing Sacraments, had 2nd Confirmation( as Catholic), Protestant baptism accepted as valid & not repeated.

 

[pocohombre]

=paul c;10339903

]How so? and what do you think the Catholic Churches teaching is about faith outside the Church? I believe that CC views all baptism said in fight formula are valid. These other Christian faiths are headed to heaven . Your ship analogy to be in line with CC teaching is that CC is the big mother ship and perhaps others not in union with Rome are in smaller, “second class” vessels but still headed towards heaven. CC says we are all graced thru the CC church, whether we recognize it (as Catholics do ) or not (as protestants may not). I believe she (CC) recognizes Christians outside her are still quite Christian, headed to eternal life, though the pilgrimage may not be with the the fullness as if it were in full communion with Rome.

 

[paul_c]

paul c;10360569:

Quote:
Okay. So let’s get this all out on the table. I think this is what you are saying. If not please correct.

If you are born again, you will persevere in good works to the end.
If you fail to persevere in good work (sin), then you weren’t really born again
If you weren’t born again, then you are reprobate and are damned into hell.

ok

paul c;10360569:

Quote:
So if you find that you sin, you must assume that you are condemned.

No. but we both agree venial sin types does not damn you, not even mortal if you repent. Regenerated people are not perfect, yet.

So mortal sinners are not assured heaven, unless they repent. Do I have that right? And if they don’t repent, they’ve never been saved?

paul c;10360569:

Quote:
In the end, the only way you are assured of your salvation is if you don’t sin.

NO

Okay. so the only way you are assured of heaven is if you avoid mortal sin after being born again or are repentent when you do. Do I have that right?

Explain again, how that differs from Catholic teaching in practice (other than ignoring the efficacy of the sacraments.

 

[paul_c]

I believe that CC views all baptism said in right formula are valid.

this is correct.

These other Christian faiths are headed to heaven . Your ship analogy to be in line with CC teaching is that CC is the big mother ship and perhaps others not in union with Rome are in smaller, “second class” vessels but still headed towards heaven. CC says we are all graced thru the CC church, whether we recognize it (as Catholics do ) or not (as protestants may not). I believe she (CC) recognizes Christians outside her are still quite Christian, headed to eternal life, though the pilgrimage may not be with the the fullness as if it were in full communion with Rome.

The Catholic Church teaches that anyone who enters heaven, will do so because of the Catholic Church. To reach heaven, you must die in the state of grace. You can get in the state of grace through

a) valid baptism
b) baptism of desire (for catechumens who want to be baptized but are prevented from doing so by death or force- St. Dismas, the good thief on the cross is an example)
c) baptism of blood (those who die for the faith without being baptized)
d) those who are completely ignorant of the need to be baptized but live completely moral lives according to the natural law (think of it as someone who lived in North America before Columbus who lived a life of love because it was the right thing to do)

You stay in the state of grace by avoiding mortal sin. This is possible for non-Catholic Christians, but certainly not easy. That’s why the sacrament of reconciliation is such an advantage for Catholics. So are the other sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, because they give us the grace to avoid sin. Even so, if a person offers perfect contrition for their sins, true sorrow, not because of God’s just punishment, but because sin offends God, they can still be saved. But this is a higher bar to cross than sacramental confession. in the end, to get to heaven you need to do what the Catholic Church teaches. If you are protesting against those very truths, then how can you expect to enter heaven?

 

[OldProf]

I’ve been absent from the thread for awhile because of some discussions I’m having with an atheist. But I’ll get back to it, and I need to respond to some of the older posts.

Old prof. The disconnect here is a function of Traditional understanding. You think people persevere because they are the elect. Catholics think people become the elect through their perseverance. If you think about it, the verses you quote are all applicable to the Catholic teaching. And when you find clear teaching that those that don’t persevere don’t go to heaven, your only recourse is to explain it away by saying they were never saved to begin with.

Yes paul c, people persevere because they are the Elect (or Sheep of Jesus). Explain it away? Can’t agree there. See my next post to provide an exegetical argument - this is what the Bible seems to teach.

But they thought they were believers, didn’t they? But they failed to works of love, just as the goats in Matthew 25: 31-46 and thus were condemned. Now I’m sure based on your past answers that you would respond that the goats were never saved, but there is nothing in the text that supports this. In fact, the goats response to the Lord is identical to that of the sheep. They weren’t condemned because of their unbelief, they were condemned for their lack of love.

As unbelievers, they were never known by Jesus - never one of His sheep. True, they identified with Christ as Lord, but they failed in works of love, which is always true of any unbeliever who never brings glory to God. But it is their unbelief which results in personal pride and personal works that become their own self-righteousness to that unbeliever. I think we all agree that that is very dangerous. We need God’s perspective, not our own regarding our “righteousness.”

It doesn’t say that though. It says they “believed for a while and then fell away”
Why can’t you believe Jesus? Can’t you see that its His word against John Calvin’s and you have chosen Calvin over the Lord. I hope this opens your eyes to that fact.

I DO believe Jesus, but I also understand him from context and not contradiction. See next post.

And remember, Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” So I ask you your own question, “Why can’t you believe Jesus?”

Please consider my next post following this.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Friends, here is an argument I know I will have to answer if I become a Roman Catholic. It is where I am at, currently, and why I think people are “elect” because of biblical exegesis. Here is some of the argument:

Jesus says, 35…“I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” (John 6:35-40 NIV, and remember verse 44 where Jesus responds, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.”)

Seems pretty clear what He is saying. If you believe in Jesus, then you will never be lost - you will be raised “up at the last day.” I would not expect Jesus, the Good Shepherd, to lose any of the Sheep given to Him by the Father (or drawn to Him by the Father per v. 44).

And consider Paul:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:3-14 NIV)

Once again, pretty clear, the Elect are chosen and sealed. If all my sins were in the future, then it seems to follow that all my sins are forgiven IF (big “little” word, IF) I actually am one of the Elect.

And more Paul:

38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39 ESV, full context is all about God’s everlasting love in Romans 8:31-39.)

That is another example. Nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” means that even we, who of course are created, and created with our own free will, but even that will not “be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” That is a fantastic revelation! Nothing will separate us (the Elect, the Sheep) from the Love of God!

(And I could go on with many more examples, but we already have a strong case and we need to press on…)

Now, with that as a backdrop, then the explicit Greek - so very clear - in John 10:28 states that Jesus’ sheep will never, not now or at any future time, perish. When do ANY of Jesus sheep perish? Never. Jesus says clearly, never. Completely consistent, and the full context of the verses above will corroborate the conclusion - the Elect, the Sheep, have everlasting life and never perish. The Good Shepherd doesn’t lose any sheep.

If I have John 10:28 as a baseline - a standard indisputable fact because of the indisputable Greek - AND THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT - then I can understand what Jesus is talking about in Luke 8:13,15 regarding the rocky soil. Jesus placed those who “believe for a while” among those who were not saved, in contrast to those who persevere in belief.

Remember, if a person can become a Sheep that then perishes, then Jesus was wrong!

So, how can I confirm that I’m one of the sheep? There is, of course, a way.

Regards, OldProf

 

[paul_c]

I’ve been absent from the thread for awhile because of some discussions I’m having with an atheist. But I’ll get back to it, and I need to respond to some of the older posts.

Okay, thanks for responding

Yes paul c, people persevere because they are the Elect (or Sheep of Jesus). Explain it away? Can’t agree there. See my next post to provide an exegetical argument - this is what the Bible seems to teach.

So lets explore this. If they don’t persevere in good works, they are not elect, right? So if you find yourself sinning, do you regard yourself as reprobate?

As unbelievers, they were never known by Jesus - never one of His sheep. True, they identified with Christ as Lord, but they failed in works of love, which is always true of any unbeliever who never brings glory to God. But it is their unbelief which results in personal pride and personal works that become their own self-righteousness to that unbeliever. I think we all agree that that is very dangerous. We need God’s perspective, not our own regarding our “righteousness.”

So if you can’t trust in your own view of self-righteousness, how can you be truly assured of your salvation? How can you judge yourself?

I DO believe Jesus, but I also understand him from context and not contradiction. See next post.

And remember, Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” So I ask you your own question, “Why can’t you believe Jesus?”

Jesus protects those that come willingly to him. but he doesn’t force us to come to him…

Please consider my next post following this.

Regards, OldProf

Should be interesting

 

[brb3]

Friends, here is an argument I know I will have to answer if I become a Roman Catholic. It is where I am at, currently, and why I think people are “elect” because of biblical exegesis. Here is some of the argument:

Jesus says, 35…“I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” (John 6:35-40 NIV, and remember verse 44 where Jesus responds, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.”)

Seems pretty clear what He is saying. If you believe in Jesus, then you will never be lost - you will be raised “up at the last day.” I would not expect Jesus, the Good Shepherd, to lose any of the Sheep given to Him by the Father (or drawn to Him by the Father per v. 44).

And consider Paul:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:3-14 NIV)

Once again, pretty clear, the Elect are chosen and sealed. If all my sins were in the future, then it seems to follow that all my sins are forgiven IF (big “little” word, IF) I actually am one of the Elect.

And more Paul:

38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39 ESV, full context is all about God’s everlasting love in Romans 8:31-39.)

That is another example. Nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” means that even we, who of course are created, and created with our own free will, but even that will not “be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” That is a fantastic revelation! Nothing will separate us (the Elect, the Sheep) from the Love of God!

(And I could go on with many more examples, but we already have a strong case and we need to press on…)

Now, with that as a backdrop, then the explicit Greek - so very clear - in John 10:28 states that Jesus’ sheep will never, not now or at any future time, perish. When do ANY of Jesus sheep perish? Never. Jesus says clearly, never. Completely consistent, and the full context of the verses above will corroborate the conclusion - the Elect, the Sheep, have everlasting life and never perish. The Good Shepherd doesn’t lose any sheep.

If I have John 10:28 as a baseline - a standard indisputable fact because of the indisputable Greek - AND THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT - then I can understand what Jesus is talking about in Luke 8:13,15 regarding the rocky soil. Jesus placed those who “believe for a while” among those who were not saved, in contrast to those who persevere in belief.

Remember, if a person can become a Sheep that then perishes, then Jesus was wrong!

So, how can I confirm that I’m one of the sheep? There is, of course, a way.

Regards, OldProf

Welcome back !! I knew you would engage, when u had time to give and support your best apologetics !
Bear with us …it may take a week or so, maybe less …but each of your above scripture passages can be rightly understood, context is key !!

 

[pocohombre]

So mortal sinners are not assured heaven, unless they repent. Do I have that right? And if they don’t repent, they’ve never been saved? Okay. so the only way you are assured of heaven is if you avoid mortal sin after being born again or are repentent when you do. Do I have that right?

.

That is right from your point of view, while I view mortal sin differently, as the unpardonable sin, blasphemeing the Holy Ghost, rejecting the gospel . I do not view it as much as state of grace but whetehr you are a spiritual creature, regegnerated, a son. So I wouldn’t say if you committed a mortal sin-catholic definition (like King David) you spiritually died and then when you confess you were born all over again,. Like when you are married and you goof up, injure the realtionship, but you are still married, and need a right heart restored, but you don’t have to get married again.

 

[brb3]

That is right from your point of view, while I view mortal sin differently, as the unpardonable sin, blasphemeing the Holy Ghost, rejecting the gospel . I do not view it as much as state of grace but whetehr you are a spiritual creature, regegnerated, a son. So I wouldn’t say if you committed a mortal sin-catholic definition (like King David) you spiritually died and then when you confess you were born all over again,. Like when you are married and you goof up, injure the realtionship, but you are still married, and need a right heart restored, but you don’t have to get married again.

True …Catholics acknowledge only one Rebirth/Adoption…but, we understand we can walk away from it, and forsake our In Christ status. As in Prodigal son ways, like David did, as I did, and David & I had to be recovered ( not reborn ) via repentance/confession/penance !!!

 

[paul_c]

Friends, here is an argument I know I will have to answer if I become a Roman Catholic. It is where I am at, currently, and why I think people are “elect” because of biblical exegesis. Here is some of the argument:

Good way to think about it. Lets see if we can answer your questions so that you can embrace the fullness of truth available in the Catholic Church.

**Jesus says, 35…"I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
** Note, Jesus points out that You must come to Him. he does not force it and once you come to him you must believe…
OldProf;10362515:

36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

Making the point that not everyone who comes to Him believes in him

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Jesus will accept all those that come to Him, including of course those that the Father directs his way (some are predestined for heaven)

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Jesus acknowledges that he has been sent to do God’s will. This is an example for us.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Jesus will lose none that the Father has predestined to heaven. But notice He does not say that anyone is predestined for Hell. In other readings, He notes that we will all be judged on our love for others (as do the apostles). Note also, that no one comes to Jesus against his own will.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

(John 6:35-40 NIV, and remember verse 44 where Jesus responds, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.”)

Note also that later in St. John’s gospel, Jesus says" When I am lifted up, I will call all men to myself. God wills no one to be condemned but He allows them free will, which means that some will undoubtedly chose poorly.

Seems pretty clear what He is saying. If you believe in Jesus, then you will never be lost - you will be raised “up at the last day.” I would not expect Jesus, the Good Shepherd, to lose any of the Sheep given to Him by the Father (or drawn to Him by the Father per v. 44).

Remember, this is from the “Bread of Life” discourses. In the end, all were invited to follow Jesus and eat His body and drink His blood. Given that choice, most thought that the teaching was too hard and stopped following Jesus. When that happened, Jesus turned to His Apostles and poignantly asked them if they too wanted to leave (notice, they were given the choice- they were not compelled). They chose to follow Christ because they believed He had the words of eternal life.

 

[paul_c]

And consider Paul:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:3-14 NIV)

Once again, pretty clear, the Elect are chosen and sealed. If all my sins were in the future, then it seems to follow that all my sins are forgiven IF (big “little” word, IF) I actually am one of the Elect.

You are drawing a conclusion from thin air that God will condone your future sins. You can get that misunderstanding if you read selected scriptural passages in a vacuum. Ephesians is a beautiful letter, but you must take it as a whole. Paul starts out by building up the Ephesians, explaining how blessed they were to hear the message of salvation. He then spends considerable time explaining how to live the Christian life (which would be unnecessary if they were all guaranteed salvation. Paul concludes in Ephesians 6 by telling them to persevere in the faith and not fall to sin (exactly the opposite of the assurance of salvation you thought he was talking about in the first chapter)
Battle against Evil. 10* Finally, draw your strength from the Lord and from his mighty power. 11Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil.g 12For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens.h 13Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground.i 14So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate,j 15and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.k 16In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all [the] flaming arrows of the evil one.l 17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.m

Constant Prayer. 18With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy onesn 19and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospelo 20for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.p

And more Paul:

38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39 ESV, full context is all about God’s everlasting love in Romans 8:31-39.)

That is another example. Nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” means that even we, who of course are created, and created with our own free will, but even that will not “be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” That is a fantastic revelation! Nothing will separate us (the Elect, the Sheep) from the Love of God!

We can never be separated from God’s love. As Jesus said in the sermon on the mount, God lets the sun shine on the just and the unjust. That does not keep man from turning his back to God though. You have made an extrapolation that undermines man’s free will as well as limiting the love of God. (Forcing us to do His will is not love.

 

[paul_c]

(And I could go on with many more examples, but we already have a strong case and we need to press on…)

Now, with that as a backdrop, then the explicit Greek - so very clear - in John 10:28 states that Jesus’ sheep will never, not now or at any future time, perish. When do ANY of Jesus sheep perish? Never. Jesus says clearly, never. Completely consistent, and the full context of the verses above will corroborate the conclusion - the Elect, the Sheep, have everlasting life and never perish. The Good Shepherd doesn’t lose any sheep.

If I have John 10:28 as a baseline - a standard indisputable fact because of the indisputable Greek - AND THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT - then I can understand what Jesus is talking about in Luke 8:13,15 regarding the rocky soil. Jesus placed those who “believe for a while” among those who were not saved, in contrast to those who persevere in belief.

Remember, if a person can become a Sheep that then perishes, then Jesus was wrong!

So, how can I confirm that I’m one of the sheep? There is, of course, a way.

Regards, OldProf

OldProf, John 10:27-28 says
27My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand

It doesn’t say that a sheep can’t become lost. It says no one can take them from Jesus’s hand. In other words, he will protect those that follow him, like the good shepherd, He will not allow them to be devoured by wolves as a hired hand would. But note, in other Good Shepherd discourses, it is said that God has more joy about finding a lost sheep than in the 99 that don’t need to be found. This shows that sheep can indeed get lost if they leave the shepherd.