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PRmerger
Guest
Exactly. I would be quite worried that I am one of those faux believers who thinks he’s saved when he really isn’t.
That is absolutely NOT assurance of salvation.
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That is absolutely NOT assurance of salvation.
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
If there is such a thing as assurance why did St. Paul tell us to "WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING?
Why would you have FEAR and TREMBLE if you had assurance?
And why would you WORK it out if salvation came from FAITH ALONE and was a onme time discrete event?
How could there be a PROCESS of WORKING it out?
Believe the WHOLE bible–don’t throw out the parts that the Catholic Church didn’t throw out for 1500 years in favor of the SELECTIVE belief of men without authority who picked and chose what they wanted to believe in and then sold it because it was an easier way!
Why would you have FEAR and TREMBLE if you had assurance?
And why would you WORK it out if salvation came from FAITH ALONE and was a onme time discrete event?
How could there be a PROCESS of WORKING it out?
Believe the WHOLE bible–don’t throw out the parts that the Catholic Church didn’t throw out for 1500 years in favor of the SELECTIVE belief of men without authority who picked and chose what they wanted to believe in and then sold it because it was an easier way!
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brb3
Guest
Ask em their testimony. Every born-again of water & fire has one.
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brb3
Guest
We ‘work it out’ (live it out) each day of lives. If we don’t continue in well-doing, we won’t finish the race. Perseverance is every bit as essential as our day 1 rebirths. We must progress from milk to the real meat (The Eucharist) !!!
Am I wrong …was St Paul wrong on essential need for Eucharist ?
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pocohombre
Guest
Where does paul say eucharist is essential, that it is ‘booster’? he mentions many times to be filled with the spirit ,yo walk in spirirt ,but not thru sacramnets .he only mentions to partake of eucharist worthily.or properly,othet than that with thoudands of verese no mentionof eucharist i think.But show me
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PRmerger
Guest
Hiya, poco.
Could you please answer the question as to how one discerns whether he is a faux believer or a true believer?
Could you please answer the question as to how one discerns whether he is a faux believer or a true believer?
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pocohombre
Guest
.I don’t want to-it’s late and now I’m laughing, but seriously, just caught up on this thread with slight quick review of last few posts .Tell me, don’t be coy like me (just kidding) but do you think St. Peter had some sort of salvation assurance ? Or any of the apostles ? Would they state there hope was to remain in grace at the time of their death ? Would their hope be that they would confess any mortal sin before death if needed?
And now I am thinking of an old song , “He walks with me and He talks with me, and He tells me I am His own”. Have you heard it ? Isn’t it possible for God to give us the proper assurance, despite our worrying that we could be wrong ( cause others thought they were saved but were actually not). For the record, I think the apostles had no doubt of their salvation and eternal destination.(The verses used against this to me are unfortunately misinterpreted). The apostles made disciples and disciples are to be like the original-be as I am (even if different “office”/place in the body). The disciple link comes down to us, and we should have the same assurance.
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PRmerger
Guest
Quite right, you “don’t want to.”
You proclaim that there are faux believers, and that “of course” you can tell the difference between someone who’s truly saved and someone who’s not.
But, really, you know that you can’t tell. We all know this.
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PRmerger
Guest
This concept of the faux believer brings to mind an amusing exchange I read between apologist John Martignoni and a non-Catholic Christian:
Every believer in once saved always saved that I have ever met, also believes that there are those out there who think they are saved, but really are not – the faux believers, as I call them. So, ask anyone who believes in OSAS these questions (this is from an actual conversation):
Question: Are there people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?
Answer: Yes, there are.
Question: Are you saved?
Answer: Yes, I am.
Question: How do you know you’re not one of those people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?
Answer: I know in my heart that I am saved.
Question: Wouldn’t someone who thinks they’re saved, but really aren’t saved, say the same thing?
Answer: I suppose so.
Question: Then how do you know you’re really saved?
Answer: I just know.
Question: How do you know?
Answer: I just do.
The whole point of this line of questioning is that, if it is possible to think you’re saved, but not really be saved, then no one can have eternal security – no one can know for sure that they are saved – because anyone who thinks they’re saved could actually be one of those who think they are but really aren’t.
Indeed, there is not a single soul out in the OSAS world that believes he’s a faux believer. But he believes that there’s lots of other hapless folks who are these faux believers.
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pocohombre
Guest
Ok it is sat morning and i thought I’d squeeze a moment here before hard work and it was definitley worth it to see “I won this”. Actually what was the question,is it can one know for themselves about themselves or can one know it about someone else. Actually when the wheat and tares still look alike you just tear up the plant and check out the roots.(That is supposed to be funny ,cause of course you kill the plant -which is what sometimes are temtpted to do)
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pocohombre
Guest
Thanks .deserves some thought .Can anyone know if they are truly born of God,born again,regenerated ? To me it is the same thing. There are those who think they are but are not. PS still laughing at" I won this" above
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PRmerger
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
Right–that is your argument.
So I want to know how you know if you’re a faux believer or a true believer.
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pocohombre
Guest
I think the question is different from assurance or osas. This question asks how do you know if you are born again? Once born again, the next question is will you make to the finish line?
Just because a false believer doesn’t know that he may indeed be false, it does not mean that a true believer can not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is born again,righteous by the Blood and a true believer with an unction from the Holy Spirit. I mean we have talked about St. Ignatius and his letters written in the last year of his life. Wouldn’t you say he had full assurance of where he was headed? Where do you think he got such love and zeal to spit in the face of death, even embrace it and praise God and exhort others fully in the faith?
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PRmerger
Guest
All of the above is interesting…and I don’t necessarily disagree.
But I want to know if you know if you’re one of those people who thinks he’s saved but isn’t.
Clearly, they are out there. You have acknowledged that fact.
So how do you know which one you are?
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brb3
Guest
SA = Born again + perseverance from that point forward in time, til our last day.
Many have started well, but then they forsake their high calling in Christ, and went Prodigal route, some recovered …but, some would not — of own free-will defiance or indifference.
Can, a BA insure their perseverance ? Yes !
But, will they ??
Many have started well, but then they forsake their high calling in Christ, and went Prodigal route, some recovered …but, some would not — of own free-will defiance or indifference.
Can, a BA insure their perseverance ? Yes !
But, will they ??
W
WD615
Guest
I remember learning about the Puritans and all their wild ideas about how to tell who the “elect” are and who aren’t. Cause if you know you’re saved, then you’re not saved because you’re not humble. But if you act like you’re not saved then you’re not saved cause you’re just not. Etc. I never got it cause I grew up not believing in OSAS.
Reading that dialogue above reminds me of all those Puritan debates. “I know I’m saved.” “Why?” “Cause I just am.” Lol
Reading that dialogue above reminds me of all those Puritan debates. “I know I’m saved.” “Why?” “Cause I just am.” Lol
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PRmerger
Guest
'zactly, WD. Exactly.
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paul_c
Guest
Why is it clear the goats were never saved? They call Jesus “lord” just as the sheep do. doesn’t that imply faith. Isn’t that all you need- to call Jesus your lord and savior?
They were saved by their lives of love and ultimately their faith when Jesus preached to them. They were not saved by faith alone, nor were they assured of salvation simply by believing in Jesus.
REmember, you must love until death to go toheaven. There is no assurance of salvation unless you persevere to the end.
As for no loving ourselves enough, that’s hardly the problem. The problem is putting other’s needs before our own.
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pocohombre
Guest
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