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brb3
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Apparently so. John 3:1-21 is key text.No it implies “religion”. What did Jesus mean to Nicodemus, a ruler/teacher in the one, true, Abrahamic religion that he needed to be born again? Was Nicodemus only born of the flesh at that time he met Jesus at "night’?
Verse 10 Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this ? Nicodemus doesn’t answer. Finally in Verse 21 Jesus concludes “But, he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.”
Christ is talking to him in all these verses about two essentials, Baptism by Water & by Fire. Nicodemus came by night, to question Jesus … to keep his travel secret from the other Pharisees. He is curious about Jesus, but not yet convinced to become disciple. Is he a righteous man of the Jewish law ? Probably, but so was Saul … and that alone was not enuf. Saul needed the two essentials … to become Jesus’ disciple.
Here is the crux of matter. We aren’t told here what Nicodemus decided. But, John gives us hints later in his Gospel that Nicodemus decided to Born Again of water & spirit, and become his disciple. In John 7:50 … Nico speaks up at Jesus trial to defend him. And, in 19:39 Nico comes with the disciples to annoint Jesus body before burial. This was a risky thing for him to do, it was now daylight. Nico was no longer a secret admirer of Christ… but, now doing works of belief. He had probably watched the Crucifixion … and been converted by events, and seeing storm and torn curtain in temple, etc.
So, same applies for us. First we must seek Christ, then we must ask him how to become his disciple, then we must act on what Christ provides to us [Spiritual enlightment & water baptisms] … and finally, letting our discipleship be seen in the daylight. We must enter thru the front door of the Catholic Church … not the rear. We must be bold, not timid.
Sons and daughters of thunder ! All true believers, not the faux ones, … are fully committed to Christ, 24-7. No prodigal Christians will enter the Kingdom …except they repent of their post-baptismal sins … and follow in the Way, in the Light…Keeping the Commandments, and doing Good Works of God, by grace …for no one will enter the Kingdom who is unclean.
Water baptism, Fire baptism, Devoted discipleship via perserverance. These 3 are the essentials. So it is written … so we must accept… so the Catholic Church teaches, provides us, and enables us ------ via the Mass / Eucharist / Sacraments of Confession-Penance.
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paul_c
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How does it imply religion? The sheep and the goats used virtually the very same words with Jesus did they not? " Lord, when did we see you hungry or thristy or a stranger of naked or ill or in prison and not minister to your needs?" They were not the unbelievers- they recognized Jesus and were surprised at their condemnation because they did not recognize that faith must be demonstrated by love. AS for Jesus and Nicodemus, isn’t it rather obvious that Jesus was showing him the new covenant requirements, which would shortly supersede the old covenant requirements?paul c;10625799:
No it implies “religion”. What did Jesus mean to Nicodemus, a ruler/teacher in the one, true, Abrahamic religion that he needed to be born again? Was Nicodemus only born of the flesh at that time he met Jesus at "night’?Quote:
Why is it clear the goats were never saved? They call Jesus “lord” just as the sheep do. doesn’t that imply faith. Isn’t that all you need- to call Jesus your lord and savior?
That is the Catholic formula Faith demonstrated by good works. If you don’t do the Good works, you faith is worthless. See 1 corinthians 13.paul c;10625799:
Well anyways Paul speaks of Old Testament saints being justified by faith which produced great works.They were saved by their lives of love and ultimately their faith when Jesus preached to them. They were not saved by faith alone, nor were they assured of salvation simply by believing in Jesus.
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pocohombre
Guest
They were saved by their lives ? and then ultimately their faith as in decisive ,or maximum or as in last in progression of “requirements” ? faith alone does not mean faith with no works to follow.But faith and nothing else is trhe beginning of all spiritual life.They were saved by their lives of love and ultimately their faith when Jesus preached to them. They were not saved by faith alone, nor were they assured of salvation simply by believing in Jesus.
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WD615
Guest
Pocohombre,
So does faith without works save?
So does faith without works save?
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pocohombre
Guest
Nope,it is dead,as in not saving faith, as in not born again. Does faith that produces works mean the works save you ?Pocohombre,
So does faith without works save?
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pocohombre
Guest
Can’t one be religious and not saved,not born again ,a goat ?Just cause you hang out in a garage does not turn you into a carHow does it imply religion?
What do you mean "recognize Jesus? Most of the world knows about Jesus, can recognize Him, so is the whole world saved if they would only love like He did? No, goats are not born again. In Jesus’s day you if you were circumcised and barhmitvahed you must be “right” with God regenerated which would mean pretty much every Jew?(they all rejected Him).And today if you are baptized and confirmed you are born again , so every single baptized person is assumed regenerated, and we just need to love more,be in his grace? Sorry for many they are not "right’ though very religious rites.That was true in Jesus’s day as it is today. Goats are not sheep, and have no shepherd,cause they are not born again.which would have turned them into a sheep..The sheep and the goats used virtually the very same words with Jesus did they not? " Lord, when did we see you hungry or thristy or a stranger of naked or ill or in prison and not minister to your needs?" They were not the unbelievers- they recognized Jesus and were surprised at their condemnation because they did not recognize that faith must be demonstrated by love.
No. Regeneration is OT. Being born of the Spirit is OT and NT.AS for Jesus and Nicodemus, isn’t it rather obvious that Jesus was showing him the new covenant requirements, which would shortly supersede the old covenant requirements?
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pocohombre
Guest
Thanks for a thought out answer but…I don’t think Nicodemus was “saved”, or a good Jew at first. Many Jews did believe,but not Nicodemus. Jesus was talking about what a teacher should know ,in old testament theology ,not new stuff about to transpire on Pentecost. Born of water could be water baptism, but it could be born in the flesh (amniotic fluid, breaking of water etc). Why do you think he immediately says flesh bears flesh and spirit spirit? Nicodemus started the "topic"of entering his mother again, but you can be born in the flesh a thousand times and still not be born of spirit. You must be born, yes in the flesh, but also in the spirit.Read it again and it makes sense, though you don’t have to buy it. Anyways, Nicodemus was not spiritual for he was spiritually dead,even though very religious in this nigh encounter. He was being drawn ,but that does not mean you are spiritual,yet.Apparently so. John 3:1-21 is key text.
Verse 10 Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this ? Nicodemus doesn’t answer. Finally in Verse 21 Jesus concludes “But, he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.”
Christ is talking to him in all these verses about two essentials, Baptism by Water & by Fire. Nicodemus came by night, to question Jesus … to keep his travel secret from the other Pharisees. He is curious about Jesus, but not yet convinced to become disciple. Is he a righteous man of the Jewish law ? Probably, but so was Saul … and that alone was not enuf. Saul needed the two essentials … to become Jesus’ disciple.
Here is the crux of matter. We aren’t told here what Nicodemus decided. But, John gives us hints later in his Gospel that Nicodemus decided to Born Again of water & spirit, and become his disciple. In John 7:50 … Nico speaks up at Jesus trial to defend him. And, in 19:39 Nico comes with the disciples to annoint Jesus body before burial. This was a risky thing for him to do, it was now daylight. Nico was no longer a secret admirer of Christ… but, now doing works of belief. He had probably watched the Crucifixion … and been converted by events, and seeing storm and torn curtain in temple, etc.
So, same applies for us. First we must seek Christ, then we must ask him how to become his disciple, then we must act on what Christ provides to us [Spiritual enlightment & water baptisms] … and finally, letting our discipleship be seen in the daylight. We must enter thru the front door of the Catholic Church … not the rear. We must be bold, not timid.
Sons and daughters of thunder ! All true believers, not the faux ones, … are fully committed to Christ, 24-7. No prodigal Christians will enter the Kingdom …except they repent of their post-baptismal sins … and follow in the Way, in the Light…Keeping the Commandments, and doing Good Works of God, by grace …for no one will enter the Kingdom who is unclean.
Water baptism, Fire baptism, Devoted discipleship via perserverance. These 3 are the essentials. So it is written … so we must accept… so the Catholic Church teaches, provides us, and enables us ------ via the Mass / Eucharist / Sacraments of Confession-Penance.
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WD615
Guest
So if faith without works doesn’t save, then faith with works is the only other alternative. Which would be the Catholic position.
Btw, regeneration means born again. So I don’t understand why you seem to be saying that it belongs to the OT.
Btw, regeneration means born again. So I don’t understand why you seem to be saying that it belongs to the OT.
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pocohombre
Guest
.You are saved unto good works not by good works .Big difference.You most show good works to be saved,while others have good works because they are already saved.So if faith without works doesn’t save, then faith with works is the only other alternative
Because it does.You think Moses,David,Abraham remained dead in spirit,dead to God because of original sin? Did they love God with the physical/spiritual capacities they received from the day they were born of water from their mothers womb that is? Yes,born again,regeneration,born of the spirit,the new inner man are common terminology of same thing,though dispensation of Holy Spirit might differ, but not the actual rebirth of a dead spirit,that is a spirit cut off from God.Btw, regeneration means born again. So I don’t understand why you seem to be saying that it belongs to the OT./
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WD615
Guest
So what was the stuff about regeneration being OT vs born of the spirit being OT/NT?
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WD615
Guest
And what do you mean by “dead spirit?” Are you saying that a “dead spirit” that is cut off from God being born again is not regeneration?
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WD615
Guest
And sorry for posting three in a row, but aren’t we considered righteous by our deeds not that we do our deeds because we are already righteous? If you say we do good works because we are already justified then you contradict scripture. I know that is off topic for the thread so I’m just gonna leave it there
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brb3
Guest
Initially, we are declared righteous in Christ — 100 % lily pure. But, after that initial justification/sanctification occasion … thereafter, we are called to good works, enabled by Christ. If we fail to become a disciple, don’t see need for Church and Sacraments … we are not living lives as Christ intended … and the sins will soon mount up to top of Mt. Olympus.And sorry for posting three in a row, but aren’t we considered righteous by our deeds not that we do our deeds because we are already righteous? If you say we do good works because we are already justified then you contradict scripture. I know that is off topic for the thread so I’m just gonna leave it there
So, post-baptismal/post-confirmational ‘good works’ … are part and parcel of a believer’s life. So says St. James … so it is written, so it is forever true, as scripture doesn’t lie.
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brb3
Guest
I use to buy that explanation, many Protestants do. But, it is wrongo POCO.Born of water could be water baptism, but it could be born in the flesh (amniotic fluid, breaking of water etc). Why do you think he immediately says flesh bears flesh and spirit spirit? Nicodemus started the "topic"of entering his mother again, but you can be born in the flesh a thousand times and still not be born of spirit. You must be born, yes in the flesh, but also in the spirit.Read it again and it makes sense, though you don’t have to buy it.
There is zero support for it … elsewhere in scripture. Water Baptism is essential Sacrament. The Church has always held so … even from Day 1 of Pentecost … when Peter taught what he had received from Christ.
Christ makes the rules … we are not allow to pick and choose what we will accept/reject.
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brb3
Guest
This make no sense ….
You are saved unto good works not by good works .///// You most show good works to be saved,
look at what you typed above. You have created a ‘chicken vs egg’ connundrum !
Which is it ?
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Aaron_Creagh
Guest
Born of water and born of the Spirit?
Hmmm.
…think Jesus…
I think this possibly could be pointing to these two facts.
Jesus is the living water…
And Jesus is the spirit of prophesy.
I could be wrong though.
Hmmm.
…think Jesus…
I think this possibly could be pointing to these two facts.
Jesus is the living water…
And Jesus is the spirit of prophesy.
I could be wrong though.
A
Aaron_Creagh
Guest
Born of water and born of the Spirit?
Hmmm.
…think Jesus…
I think this possibly could be pointing to these two facts.
Jesus is the living water…
And Jesus is the Spirit of prophesy.
I could be wrong though.
A
Aaron_Creagh
Guest
Well…before we learn that Jesus is the Spirit of prophesy, we learn that he is a quickening Spirit.
quickening = life giving.
quickening = life giving.
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Aaron_Creagh
Guest
Before we are born again…
we are basically…dead men walking, in a sense.
we are basically…dead men walking, in a sense.
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