Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[PeaceInChrist]

Ok,i’ll ask. So can you believe (in Christ) without being regenerated.

Of course one can. Jesus even teaches His disciples that not everyone who says to Him “Lord, Lord!” will enter the Kingdom. Additionally, the goats at His left proclaim Him as Lord, and are told to depart.

The sacraments are not to put the "wind’ of regeneration, of spiritual birth, into a box. What happens to wind when you put it in a box? John 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth:so is every one that is born of the spirit”. Is regeneration in a sacrament? Maybe. Is it not in any sacrament ? Maybe. Is it in your church ? Maybe. Is it in my church? Maybe. Where it is mightily today will it be there exactly the same place tomorrow? Don’t you agree the gates of hell can not stop this “wind”?

The wind of the Holy Spirit does indeed blow where it will. So why, then, does Jesus Himself use physical signs when He heals people? For instance, spitting and rubbing someone’s eyes with mud? Or telling someone to bathe in a body of water? Or walk somewhere and do something? Can’t He do whatever He pleases?

Of course He can. Jesus does, in fact, heal some without any sign. But He does as He wishes with His grace, and He is the one that commanded we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is the one who said ‘eat, this is my Body’ and ‘this is my Blood’. He has commanded all these Sacraments of us.

Even Paul, who encountered God in a visible and mystical way, and who converted at that moment, was baptized and had hands laid on him. Again, the first priority of Peter after seeing Cornelius had been opened to the Holy Spirit was to baptize him. Why? Because the Lord has commanded that this be the normative means of the infusion of sanctifying grace.

One can certainly come to believe in God, but baptism is required for the infusion of sanctifying grace, and the other Sacraments follow, and more grace is bestowed through these. I don’t understand why anyone would be so resistant to them; considering that prayer and response to God’s grace grants a greater openness to God’s grace, imagine what these sacred Gifts do for one’s response to grace!

You must understand, my friend, that we, as the early Church and fathers throughout history, place great importance on the Sacraments. They are necessary for our salvation. Obviously the Lord does grant some measure of grace to those outside of the Sacraments, as to those Protestants who do not believe in Sacraments but still proclaim Christ (though I cannot say if the grace is sufficient for salvation, obviously I don’t know who is saved and who is not). Still, when one could have the epitome of the Gifts of grace that Christ instituted, I can see no reason why one would choose to abstain. They are for our own good, to give us the strength to persevere, and to keep us unified within His Body.

Peace.

 

[brb3]

He is the one who said ‘eat, this is my Body’ and ‘this is my Blood’. He has commanded all these Sacraments of us.

Even Paul, who encountered God in a visible and mystical way, and who converted at that moment, was baptized and had hands laid on him. Again, the first priority of Peter after seeing Cornelius had been opened to the Holy Spirit was to baptize him. Why? Because the Lord has commanded that this be the normative means of the infusion of sanctifying grace.

One can certainly come to believe in God, but baptism is required for the infusion of sanctifying grace, and the other Sacraments follow, and more grace is bestowed through these.

… the early Church and fathers throughout history, place great importance on the Sacraments. They are necessary for our salvation. Obviously the Lord does grant some measure of grace to those outside of the Sacraments, as to those Protestants who do not believe in Sacraments but still proclaim Christ (though I cannot say if the grace is sufficient for salvation, obviously I don’t know who is saved and who is not).

Well stated …

As a Reborn Baptist, I struggled to persevere. Eventually, the secular world captured me. Not suddenly, but slowly … over several years. I was not receiving sufficient graces in the Protestant ecclesial communities. I was not receiving periodic confession, and zero Eucharistic meals.

Apart from the Sacraments of the CC, perseverance is a very tough proposition for Protestants. And, even as Catholics … we too must weekly go to Mass, to be kept strong in our faith.

 

[asd72]

brb3;10638902:

Ok,i’ll ask. So can you believe (in Christ) without being regenerated.

Yes you can. The grace of the Holy Spirit is required to bring someone to conversion, along with the free response of man. You need to understand the difference between ‘sanctifying grace’ and ‘actual grace’, if you want to look them up.

 

[WD615]

No you contradict scripture when you say we are justified by our deeds.

Am I really?

“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24 (ESV)

Notice I also didn’t say that we are only justified by deeds. But all the Bible verses that save we are justified by faith do not say “faith alone.” The only Bible verse that does say “faith alone” is the one above. I’m not sure how you can say that James 2:24 is unscriptural.

This is also why I think OSAS has a shaky foundation. This may have already been addressed in such a long discussion thread, but I have heard “faith” described by certain preachers as a sort of strong conviction about the truths of Christianity. One has to “accept Jesus Christ as lord and savior” in the Sinner’s Prayer. Many Evangelical Protestants point to this as when they “got saved.” However, isn’t “faith” then just another deed? A deed of the heart or mind if not of the body?

This also makes sense as to how certain Protestants can say Catholics aren’t saved or aren’t Christians. Because they don’t believe in Sola Fide, i.e. don’t have the right beliefs or “faith”, they aren’t saved.

 

[paul_c]

brb3;10642528:

So one can "believe"without regeneration you say.How is that possible? What do you think regeneration is ?

Poco,
Satan KNOWS that Jesus is the son of God as do all the evil spirits that Jesus exorcizes during his ministry. Lets look at one example, [BIBLEDRB]Luke 4:41[/BIBLEDRB].

So obviously belief in Jesus in insufficient to get to heaven. You need to do God’s will to demonstrate that faith. St. James couldn’t be more clear: [BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-26[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I have heard it said that Catholics do not have ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation but that they can have a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation if they are living their lives in a state of grace and are partaking of the sacraments and are trying to do God’s will.

What exactly is a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation?

Does it mean that Catholics do not spend ALL of their time on Earth trembling with fear about their salvation?

In other words while it is true that we should "WORK OUT our salvation with “FEAR and TREMBLING”–that we don’t fear and tremble all the time?

I know when I receive Jesus in the eucharist and go pack to the pew and am kneeling and praying and just being with Jesus–I don’t fear and tremble at that moment–that’s the closest thing there is to heaven on earth.

At moments like those would it be fair to say that Catholics at those moments have not an ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation but they do have a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation?

 

[paul_c]

I have heard it said that Catholics do not have ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation but that they can have a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation if they are living their lives in a state of grace and are partaking of the sacraments and are trying to do God’s will.

What exactly is a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation?

Does it mean that Catholics do not spend ALL of their time on Earth trembling with fear about their salvation?

In other words while it is true that we should "WORK OUT our salvation with “FEAR and TREMBLING”–that we don’t fear and tremble all the time?

I know when I receive Jesus in the eucharist and go pack to the pew and am kneeling and praying and just being with Jesus–I don’t fear and tremble at that moment–that’s the closest thing there is to heaven on earth.

At moments like those would it be fair to say that Catholics at those moments have not an ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation but they do have a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation?

I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that I NEVER worry about going to hell and I never presume to think I am going to heaven. I just do my best to follow the church’s teachings and pray that God will have mercy on my soul. I feel completely at peace with this. I would never presume to claim that I have moral certainty of any kind. Our job is to love. That is what we should worry about. We should have faith that Jesus will judge us fairly and with more mercy than we deserve.

I never hear Catholics worry about assurance of salvation. That seems to be a huge concern for Protestants, though. It makes you wonder if that is their consciences calling them home to the Catholic church where they will find grace in the sacraments and the fullness of truth.

 

[OldProf]

I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that I NEVER worry about going to hell and I never presume to think I am going to heaven. I just do my best to follow the church’s teachings and pray that God will have mercy on my soul. I feel completely at peace with this. I would never presume to claim that I have moral certainty of any kind. Our job is to love. That is what we should worry about. We should have faith that Jesus will judge us fairly and with more mercy than we deserve.

I never hear Catholics worry about assurance of salvation. That seems to be a huge concern for Protestants, though. It makes you wonder if that is their consciences calling them home to the Catholic church where they will find grace in the sacraments and the fullness of truth.

paul c, I’m surprised you NEVER worry about assurance and don’t know any Catholics who do. That has not been my experience in personally speaking with Catholics. The ones who will even speak with me about it say something like, “I have a hope of heaven. I believe I’ve lived a good life and helped others. I can’t think of anything I’ve done that has been that bad.” And in almost all cases, they have “zero” interest in sharing or defending their faith (I can only think of one exception out of maybe 25 RC Christians, and this was a man who attended a Bible study with me 19 years ago - he was a really good guy and fellow Air Force officer, you could see the Love of Jesus in him).

(Note for all of those who have been wondering, What happened to OldProf? My sincere apologies. I’ve been seriously engaged with an atheist and just haven’t been back to this thread that much. And in some cases, I’ve seen they were off topic and I’m not engaging off topic items. So I’m pretty far behind where this discussion has gone. So, I’m going to try to get back up to speed with our discussion.)

Back to the assurance discussion, I’ve mentioned the Amplified Bible and how it is designed to bring out nuances of the original languages, such as tenses or emphasis that can provide helpful clarification. John 10:28 is a good example:

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.

That provides a pretty explicit argument that eternal life is, well, eternal! And, that Jesus’ sheep (the elect) will never perish, not now or at ANY future time. We have a crystal clear SALVATION statement here, and, with the undergirding of additional texts, some of which I’ve provided over this discourse, we can see that those who are known by Jesus, that is His sheep, really do have eternal life. Hence, OSAS (once-saved-always-saved).

Here’s my question, since I may have missed the definitive answer over the last 2 months. Can a believer (one of the sheep, one of the elect) lose their salvation and perish? Is that what Jesus is actually saying in John 10:22-30?

In Christ, OldProf

 

[PRmerger]

paul c, I’m surprised you NEVER worry about assurance and don’t know any Catholics who do.

I echo paulc’s sentiments.

As there are, apparently, such entities as “faux believers”, it appears that even those who claim to have ASSURANCE could be one of those hapless folks who think he’s saved but actually isn’t.

As such, there is no such thing as assurance. Even for those who believe that the Bible claims there is.

 

[paul_c]

paul c, I’m surprised you NEVER worry about assurance and don’t know any Catholics who do. That has not been my experience in personally speaking with Catholics. The ones who will even speak with me about it say something like, “I have a hope of heaven. I believe I’ve lived a good life and helped others. I can’t think of anything I’ve done that has been that bad.” And in almost all cases, they have “zero” interest in sharing or defending their faith (I can only think of one exception out of maybe 25 RC Christians, and this was a man who attended a Bible study with me 19 years ago - he was a really good guy and fellow Air Force officer, you could see the Love of Jesus in him).

I repeat, I never worry about going to hell, not because I am assured of salvation, but merely because my soul is at peace. Why do you think you are so worried about being damned, anyway?

As for the Catholics you encounter, I’m guessing that you simply don’t travel in circles that expose you to devout Catholics. AFterall, in your whole life, you only admit to speaking to 25 Catholics. You have much more exposure to that here and we are more than happy to share and defend our faith.

(Note for all of those who have been wondering, What happened to OldProf? My sincere apologies. I’ve been seriously engaged with an atheist and just haven’t been back to this thread that much. And in some cases, I’ve seen they were off topic and I’m not engaging off topic items. So I’m pretty far behind where this discussion has gone. So, I’m going to try to get back up to speed with our discussion.)

No problem, we are here for YOUR benefit. Come in and out as you see fit.

Back to the assurance discussion, I’ve mentioned the Amplified Bible and how it is designed to bring out nuances of the original languages, such as tenses or emphasis that can provide helpful clarification. John 10:28 is a good example:

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.

That provides a pretty explicit argument that eternal life is, well, eternal! And, that Jesus’ sheep (the elect) will never perish, not now or at ANY future time. We have a crystal clear SALVATION statement here, and, with the undergirding of additional texts, some of which I’ve provided over this discourse, we can see that those who are known by Jesus, that is His sheep, really do have eternal life. Hence, OSAS (once-saved-always-saved).

Here’s my question, since I may have missed the definitive answer over the last 2 months. Can a believer (one of the sheep, one of the elect) lose their salvation and perish? Is that what Jesus is actually saying in John 10:22-30?

In Christ, OldProf

Your question betrays a series of false assumptions. It suggests that salvation is by faith alone and also suggests that it is predestined. Neither of these assumptions is true.

Here’s the truth of salvation.

it starts out by the grace of God. He calls to all of us to enter into communion with Him. Some answer that call and are Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism is freely given to all those that ask but it is the mark of a covenantial relationship. God forgives our sins and places us in the state of grace with the understanding that we will do His will. It is when we fail to do His will that we fall from grace and are condemned, if we do not reconcile sacramentally. In John 10: 20-30, Jesus tells us that no one can take the sheep away from him. And so it is. But that doesn’t mean that the sheep can’t leave of their own free will. Indeed, Jesus says this 5 chapters later in [BIBLEDRB]john 15: 1-10[/BIBLEDRB]

You see, we HAVE a choice. We can either do Gods will, which is to Love (see 1Corinthians 13 to fully understand the relationship between Faith and Love) and see James 2 to understand that you can’t get to heaven based on faith alone → you must demonstrate your faith through love. And if you fail to do this, your assurance of salvation is voided.

 

[OldProf]

I repeat, I never worry about going to hell, not because I am assured of salvation, but merely because my soul is at peace. Why do you think you are so worried about being damned, anyway?

As for the Catholics you encounter, I’m guessing that you simply don’t travel in circles that expose you to devout Catholics. AFterall, in your whole life, you only admit to speaking to 25 Catholics. You have much more exposure to that here and we are more than happy to share and defend our faith.

Your question betrays a series of false assumptions. It suggests that salvation is by faith alone and also suggests that it is predestined. Neither of these assumptions is true.

Here’s the truth of salvation.

it starts out by the grace of God. He calls to all of us to enter into communion with Him. Some answer that call and are Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism is freely given to all those that ask but it is the mark of a covenantial relationship. God forgives our sins and places us in the state of grace with the understanding that we will do His will. It is when we fail to do His will that we fall from grace and are condemned, if we do not reconcile sacramentally. In John 10: 20-30, Jesus tells us that no one can take the sheep away from him. And so it is. But that doesn’t mean that the sheep can’t leave of their own free will. Indeed, Jesus says this 5 chapters later in [BIBLEDRB]john 15: 1-10[/BIBLEDRB]

You see, we HAVE a choice. We can either do Gods will, which is to Love (see 1Corinthians 13 to fully understand the relationship between Faith and Love) and see James 2 to understand that you can’t get to heaven based on faith alone → you must demonstrate your faith through love. And if you fail to do this, your assurance of salvation is voided.

paul c, nice to hear from you. I’ve provided the evidence lists and have examined myself against them as Paul says, so I have the assurance John says I should have (1 John 5:13). And I do trust the CA has the best answers the RCC can give.

Now, I repeat:

Here’s my question, since I may have missed the definitive answer over the last 2 months. Can a believer (one of the sheep, one of the elect) lose their salvation and perish? Is that what Jesus is actually saying in John 10:22-30?

Since your response had zero exegesis of John 10:28 AND you deflected to the all too common John 15 response, I can only ask again for some exegesis. I’ve dealt with John 15 before, often actually since it always comes up, including in part I of this assurance thread, and I’ll be happy to do it again, but we need first to establish what Jesus is saying here in John 10.

See next post.

In Christ, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

I repeat, … snip

paul c, I believe the clear statements by Jesus indicate that his sheep have eternal life, and they will never, not now or at any future time, perish. That is what Jesus directly states in John 10:28. The specific context is John 10:22-30. And there is more. The Johannine literature provides rich teaching on salvation and eternal (or everlasting) life. A few verses of note:

We know that people believe because they are born of God. “12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12-13

John 3 has a bunch. Jesus tells Nicodemus you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and Jesus continues with this: 14 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” And this is followed by John the Baptist who lifts up Christ while humbling himself and finishes in verse 36 with “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Then in John 5:24 Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” We know, of course, that this refers to spiritual death to spiritual life for the believer. And we know that believers have eternal life as defined in John 3.

John 6 provides a very strong case for the Father drawing all believers, and all believers will be saved to the end since Jesus will do His Father’s will. Jesus said, “37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” … “44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.”

And in John 11, where Lazarus has died and Jesus is with Martha, 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

That should be enough to make the point. John provides very rich Scripture, each with there own context, however, the teaching is clear. Eternal life is eternal. The sheep never perish, not now or at any future time. Clearly the “life” in Jesus’ sheep is eternal.

I realize this teaching must be a difficult admission by Roman Catholics. Isn’t that why you won’t answer John 10:28 other than to say that, “The sheep can perish if they choose not to believe any more” (the freewill of man trumps the a direct statement of Jesus - but there are implications).

IF the Christian (true Believer) headed for heaven can end up in hell, then we have some serious questions.

Lord Jesus, why did You so forcefully state that believers have “eternal life” and they would “not now or at any future time” perish, if the fact is that some of them will not have eternal life and will perish? (As taught by the RCC - thru mortal sin - and in some Protestant Churches)

And since that is the case, Lord Jesus, how have you, the Good Shepherd, fulfilled the Fathers will that you would “lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day” as stated in John 6:39-40, 44?

Lord Jesus, what did Paul mean in his very forceful statements in Romans 8? Doesn’t it appear that he had it wrong in many of his statements if a person is a believer with eternal life and then is under condemnation, separated from God’s love, and in hell for eternity after they die?

Lord Jesus, if a beliver who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, known by you, and has Your mind (1 Cor 2:16), then how is it possible that You, as the Good Shepherd, can allow them to leave the flock and perish? In Ephesians 1:13-14, why does Paul write “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory” if the believer can perish in hell after they die? And why was Paul so confident that when You begin a good work in a believer, that You would complete it? (Philippians 1:6)

Lord Jesus, why does John say, “11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” in 1 John 5:11-13 if the believer can really perish in the end?

Those questions go away easily if Jesus is telling the truth in John 10:28, don’t they? OldProf

 

[OldProf]

I echo paulc’s sentiments.

As there are, apparently, such entities as “faux believers”, it appears that even those who claim to have ASSURANCE could be one of those hapless folks who think he’s saved but actually isn’t.

As such, there is no such thing as assurance. Even for those who believe that the Bible claims there is.

Hi PRmerger, don’t remember if I’ve replied to you before. I love the cartoon! But, it’s maybe a bit “presumptuous” don’t you think!?

I agree - no question there are “faux believers” (professing believers who really are not - I think that is what you mean).

Is it my “belief” that the Bible claims there is an assurance of salvation, or does the Bible simply state that fact?

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

I think that means that if you agree with what John writes previously in this letter, and you believe in Jesus, then “you may know that you have eternal life.”

That is a biblical statement of fact. Am I wrong?

Regards, OldProf

 

[asd72]

Hi PRmerger, don’t remember if I’ve replied to you before. I love the cartoon! But, it’s maybe a bit “presumptuous” don’t you think!?

I agree - no question there are “faux believers” (professing believers who really are not - I think that is what you mean).

Is it my “belief” that the Bible claims there is an assurance of salvation, or does the Bible simply state that fact?

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

I think that means that if you agree with what John writes previously in this letter, and you believe in Jesus, then “you may know that you have eternal life.”

That is a biblical statement of fact. Am I wrong?

Regards, OldProf

What is a faux believer? Either you believe or you disbelief surely.

 

[paul_c]

paul c, nice to hear from you. I’ve provided the evidence lists and have examined myself against them as Paul says, so I have the assurance John says I should have (1 John 5:13). And I do trust the CA has the best answers the RCC can give.

We went through you evidence list 2 months ago. Remember I pointed out that not one item in it mentioned Jesus or His Church. It is just standard morality that a jew or a Muslim could follow. I suggest to you that your evidence list is insufficient to get you into heaven. Just because you believe something doesn’t mean its the truth. As for Catholic Answers, there are indeed many knowledgeable Catholics here but the best answers come directly from the Bishops and the Pope. They are authoritative.

Now, I repeat:

Here’s my question, since I may have missed the definitive answer over the last 2 months. Can a believer (one of the sheep, one of the elect) lose their salvation and perish? Is that what Jesus is actually saying in John 10:22-30?

Since your response had zero exegesis of John 10:28 AND you deflected to the all too common John 15 response, I can only ask again for some exegesis. I’ve dealt with John 15 before, often actually since it always comes up, including in part I of this assurance thread, and I’ll be happy to do it again, but we need first to establish what Jesus is saying here in John 10.

The basic problem with Protestant exegesis is that it tends to address small snippets of the bible rather than scripture and Tradition in its entirety. This leads to misunderstanding and error. The reason that John 15 is used is because you need to understand the Gospel in its fullness to understand the truth that it teaches. [BIBLEDRB]John 10: 28[/BIBLEDRB]

You want it to say that You are assured of salvation if you believe in Jesus, but it just doesn’t say that does it. It simply says that eternal life is for ever for that that achieve heaven and that no man can force you to be condemned. This is a statement of the power of Christ. But it does not say that you can not abandon your faith of your own free will - thus assurance of salvation is false. And John 15: 1-10 shows this in no uncertain terms.
Which is

 

[pocohombre]

Of course one can. Jesus even teaches His disciples that not everyone who says to Him “Lord, Lord!” will enter the Kingdom. Additionally, the goats at His left proclaim Him as Lord, and are told to depart.

The wind of the Holy Spirit does indeed blow where it will. So why, then, does Jesus Himself use physical signs when He heals people? For instance, spitting and rubbing someone’s eyes with mud? Or telling someone to bathe in a body of water? Or walk somewhere and do something? Can’t He do whatever He pleases?

Of course He can. Jesus does, in fact, heal some without any sign. But He does as He wishes with His grace, and He is the one that commanded we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is the one who said ‘eat, this is my Body’ and ‘this is my Blood’. He has commanded all these Sacraments of us.

Even Paul, who encountered God in a visible and mystical way, and who converted at that moment, was baptized and had hands laid on him. Again, the first priority of Peter after seeing Cornelius had been opened to the Holy Spirit was to baptize him. Why? Because the Lord has commanded that this be the normative means of the infusion of sanctifying grace.

One can certainly come to believe in God, but baptism is required for the infusion of sanctifying grace, and the other Sacraments follow, and more grace is bestowed through these. I don’t understand why anyone would be so resistant to them; considering that prayer and response to God’s grace grants a greater openness to God’s grace, imagine what these sacred Gifts do for one’s response to grace!

You must understand, my friend, that we, as the early Church and fathers throughout history, place great importance on the Sacraments. They are necessary for our salvation. Obviously the Lord does grant some measure of grace to those outside of the Sacraments, as to those Protestants who do not believe in Sacraments but still proclaim Christ (though I cannot say if the grace is sufficient for salvation, obviously I don’t know who is saved and who is not). Still, when one could have the epitome of the Gifts of grace that Christ instituted, I can see no reason why one would choose to abstain. They are for our own good, to give us the strength to persevere, and to keep us unified within His Body.

Peace.

Normative means of infusing grace was baptism to Cornelius ? You got it backward .They had grace BEFORE baptism of water

 

[paul_c]

paul c, I believe the clear statements by Jesus indicate that his sheep have eternal life, and they will never, not now or at any future time, perish. That is what Jesus directly states in John 10:28. The specific context is John 10:22-30. And there is more. The Johannine literature provides rich teaching on salvation and eternal (or everlasting) life. A few verses of note:

You are mislead because you don’t have Tradition to guide your exegesis. Let’s go over your scripture and look at the Catholic alternative to your personal interpretation

We know that people believe because they are born of God. “12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12-13

Doesn’t verse 12 in fact say " to all who DID receive him"? Do you not understand that this means to receive Him in the Eucharist? The gift of the Eucharist comes from God, not men.

John 3 has a bunch. Jesus tells Nicodemus you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and Jesus continues with this: 14 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” And this is followed by John the Baptist who lifts up Christ while humbling himself and finishes in verse 36 with “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Do you not understand that when Jesus talked to Nicodemus about being born again of water and spirit, He was talking about baptism? And that when Jesus talked about being lifted up, he was talking about the redemptive power of the Cross. He came not to condemn the world but to save it through his Passion. And the fact that those who didn’t believe in Jesus would be condemned is also straight forward so its obvious that only those that believe in Him could be saved. But belief by itself is not enough and that is made clear in subsequent passages. That’s why if your exegesis is limited to a few verses, you can be mislead.

Then in John 5:24 Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” We know, of course, that this refers to spiritual death to spiritual life for the believer. And we know that believers have eternal life as defined in John 3.

Again, you chose to stop at half the message. You DO need to believe in Jesus to have eternal life. But there are more requirements than that. As we shall see shortly.

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;10643763:

Poco,
Satan KNOWS that Jesus is the son of God as do all the evil spirits that Jesus exorcizes during his ministry. Lets look at one example, [BIBLEDRB]Luke 4:41[/BIBLEDRB].

So obviously belief in Jesus in insufficient to get to heaven. You need to do God’s will to demonstrate that faith. St. James couldn’t be more clear: [BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-26[/BIBLEDRB]

Ummm gentlemen ,I guess I should Always put it the words “saving” faith ,saving believing. We have already discussed “not” saving belief(devil,false believrs) .Can you have saving belief, proper belief that Jesus is indeed your Lord(true believre,sheep),without regeneration?

 

[brb3]

Old Prof …

I agree with u that John teaches we are to live with assurance of salvation. How could we be worthy disciples of Christ, but that we see in scripture that Christ won’t forsake us & supports us 24-7 via abiding presence of HS. This is what Christ & John wished the elect to get as the ‘take home’ message in NT scriptures …that are taking in present tense. We live in the present, the past is behind, and we have every hope we will continue walking with Christ tomorrow. But, we both know u could decide to walk away tomorrow…and Christ would respect that free-will decision.

A few decades ago, I did just that … and just recently returned, after being severely judged. But for God judging me …I was not gonna make the Kingdom…Christ knew it, and put on a ’ full court press’ to warn me of impending doom.

Christ won’t forsake us …but, a reborn son/daughter can & often does walk away from Christ, back into secular world.

 

[paul_c]

John 6 provides a very strong case for the Father drawing all believers, and all believers will be saved to the end since Jesus will do His Father’s will. Jesus said, “37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” … “44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.”

Do you not recognize that John 6 is the great Bread of life discourse where the Eucharistic discussion he started in John 1:12 is further elaborated on. It seems you stopped right before he explains this> Lets continue from where you stopped:[BIBLEDRB] John 6: 48-59 [/BIBLEDRB]

How can you fail to note that if YOU don’t partake of the Eucharist, you will be condemned. So you see, you need to do more than just believe.

And in John 11, where Lazarus has died and Jesus is with Martha, 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Again, there are lots of statements that say you need to have faith to be saved. Because it is true. But it is equally true that there are lots of other statements of additional requirements for salvation and they are also true. If you stop where you stop, you simply deceive yourself. You know , in Luke 18: 18-23, a man asked Jesus directly what he must do to gain eternal life. Do you know what Jesus told him? I’ll save you from looking it up. Jesus told him to follow the 10 commandments. Did that mean that that was sufficient and that faith wasn’t required? Hardly. It just means there are multiple requirements. Again, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says that merely calling him lord is insufficient to gain eternal life, you must do the will of the Father.

That should be enough to make the point. John provides very rich Scripture, each with there own context, however, the teaching is clear. Eternal life is eternal. The sheep never perish, not now or at any future time. Clearly the “life” in Jesus’ sheep is eternal.

I realize this teaching must be a difficult admission by Roman Catholics. Isn’t that why you won’t answer John 10:28 other than to say that, “The sheep can perish if they choose not to believe any more” (the freewill of man trumps the a direct statement of Jesus - but there are implications).

IF the Christian (true Believer) headed for heaven can end up in hell, then we have some serious questions.

Lord Jesus, why did You so forcefully state that believers have “eternal life” and they would “not now or at any future time” perish, if the fact is that some of them will not have eternal life and will perish? (As taught by the RCC - thru mortal sin - and in some Protestant Churches)

And since that is the case, Lord Jesus, how have you, the Good Shepherd, fulfilled the Fathers will that you would “lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day” as stated in John 6:39-40, 44?

Old Prof, you are so sure of your personal interpretations. But I have shown you several examples of other requriements beyond faith that are also required for eternal life: doing the will of the Father, partaking of the sacraments, following the commandments. Take that to heart.

Lord Jesus, what did Paul mean in his very forceful statements in Romans 8? Doesn’t it appear that he had it wrong in many of his statements if a person is a believer with eternal life and then is under condemnation, separated from God’s love, and in hell for eternity after they die?

Lord Jesus, if a beliver who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, known by you, and has Your mind (1 Cor 2:16), then how is it possible that You, as the Good Shepherd, can allow them to leave the flock and perish? In Ephesians 1:13-14, why does Paul write “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory” if the believer can perish in hell after they die? And why was Paul so confident that when You begin a good work in a believer, that You would complete it? (Philippians 1:6)

Lord Jesus, why does John say, “11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” in 1 John 5:11-13 if the believer can really perish in the end?

Those questions go away easily if Jesus is telling the truth in John 10:28, don’t they? OldProf

These are not impediments. Jesus and Paul say that Faith is required and so it is. But they also say there are other requirements. Paul says very forcefully points out in 1 Corinthians 13 that if you had faith enough to move mountains but do not have love, you are nothing. and James says very clearly that Faith without works is dead.