Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[paul_c]

Normative means of infusing grace was baptism to Cornelius ? You got it backward .They had grace BEFORE baptism of water

Cornelius was given the gifts of the Holy spirit (speaking in tongues) in advance of baptism
to signal to Peter that it was acceptable to baptize him. But he was still baptized (as was Paul) to gain the grace of God and forgiveness of sins. You are assuming because he spoke in tongues that he got God’s grace in its fullness. But that seems unlikely, otherwise why would Peter have baptized him?

 

[paul_c]

Hi PRmerger, don’t remember if I’ve replied to you before. I love the cartoon! But, it’s maybe a bit “presumptuous” don’t you think!?

I agree - no question there are “faux believers” (professing believers who really are not - I think that is what you mean).

This is a ridiculous concept. Belief by definition is what the person beliefs. If he thinks that Jesus is his lord and savior, then he is a believer. The fact that he may not be saved doesn’t change that. In fact, that is more that reality that more than simple belief is required to get to heaven.

Is it my “belief” that the Bible claims there is an assurance of salvation, or does the Bible simply state that fact?

It is your misunderstanding that makes you believe this.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

I think that means that if you agree with what John writes previously in this letter, and you believe in Jesus, then “you may know that you have eternal life.”

That is a biblical statement of fact. Am I wrong?

You are wrong to assume that just because you have faith or at one time had faith, that you are assured of heaven. Do you partake of the Eucharist? Jesus says that if you don’t, there is no life within you (John 6:53). And he says that if you don’t remain in Christ, then you will be thrown into the fire (John 15: 6) Read the whole truth, not only what you would like to be the truth.

 

[brb3]

Cornelius was given the gifts of the Holy spirit (speaking in tongues) in advance of baptism
to signal to Peter that it was acceptable to baptize him. But he was still baptized (as was Paul) to gain the grace of God and forgiveness of sins. You are assuming because he spoke in tongues that he got God’s grace in its fullness. But that seems unlikely, otherwise why would Peter have baptized him?

Good point. In almost all cases … Baptism preceeds Confirmation in H.S.
But, if God needs to reverse the order, to build up the Church … who are we to contest the exception to the Rule.

For example, God desires all Christians to discover the Catholic Church and her salvific, Sacraments unto final Perseverance. But, some of us enter her as believing Protestants … not unlike situation of Cornelius. Cornelius and family knew the Lord … but, not the Church & her Sacraments.

 

[brb3]

A.) You are wrong to assume that just because you have faith or at one time had faith, that you are assured of heaven.

B.) Do you partake of the Eucharist? Jesus says that if you don’t, there is no life within you (John 6:53).

C.)And he says that if you don’t remain in Christ, then you will be thrown into the fire (John 15: 6) Read the whole truth, not only what you would like to be the truth.

A : Right. One may walk away … at any time. Free-will demands this truth. Life experience confirms it as well. We all know those once ‘on fire’ for the Lord … whose lives have grown cold.

B : Protestant believers may not know of it’s literal meaning. But, this is where the Catholic brethren can be of assistance to them. God has ways of feeding the Protestants … via the Scriptures, via prayer, fasting, good works, keeping commandments, etc. Nevertheless, Protestants are severely handicapped and deprived of the efficacious graces available via the True Presence Eucharist.

C : Yes, only those who Abide in Christ, forgiven of all Post-baptismal mortal sins — will see the Kingdom.

–

 

[pocohombre]

Cornelius was given the gifts of the Holy spirit (speaking in tongues) in advance of baptism
to signal to Peter that it was acceptable to baptize him. But he was still baptized (as was Paul) to gain the grace of God and forgiveness of sins. You are assuming because he spoke in tongues that he got God’s grace in its fullness. But that seems unlikely, otherwise why would Peter have baptized him?

Good question why did he water baptize? CC say for regeneration,wash away original sin.So Cornelius believed with saving faith, baptized in HS, praised God, yet was unregenerate? The old man in him praised God ? The flesh praised God ? I do not think one can be baptized in HS unless he is first born again… Not sure Paul says he received forgiveness of sins only after he was water baptized,as apart from the moment he first believed in the efficacy of Christ crucified.

 

[pocohombre]

I have heard it said that Catholics do not have ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation but that they can have a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation if they are living their lives in a state of grace and are partaking of the sacraments and are trying to do God’s will.

What exactly is a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation?

Does it mean that Catholics do not spend ALL of their time on Earth trembling with fear about their salvation?

In other words while it is true that we should "WORK OUT our salvation with “FEAR and TREMBLING”–that we don’t fear and tremble all the time?

I know when I receive Jesus in the eucharist and go pack to the pew and am kneeling and praying and just being with Jesus–I don’t fear and tremble at that moment–that’s the closest thing there is to heaven on earth.

At moments like those would it be fair to say that Catholics at those moments have not an ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation but they do have a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation?

Good, now you can empathize with a Protetstant who feels the same way after being with, talking with Jesus ( after prayer or scripture time etc). As I put forth earlier in a post, the old song, “He walks with me, and He talks with me, and He tells me I am his own…”

 

[pocohombre]

I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that I NEVER worry about going to hell and I never presume to think I am going to heaven. I just do my best to follow the church’s teachings and pray that God will have mercy on my soul. I feel completely at peace with this. I would never presume to claim that I have moral certainty of any kind. Our job is to love. That is what we should worry about. We should have faith that Jesus will judge us fairly and with more mercy than we deserve.

I never hear Catholics worry about assurance of salvation. That seems to be a huge concern for Protestants, though. It makes you wonder if that is their consciences calling them home to the Catholic church where they will find grace in the sacraments and the fullness of truth.

That is right, Protestants do not have the luxury of being on the big old, unsinkable luxury cruise liner, giving you everything necessary for a safe journey. Protetstants indeed must be concerned with what, or whom they are relying on for their salvation. They have learned not to place their faith in anything claiming to be unsinkable, who claim moral and spiritual certainty…Sorry paulc, but for many that is how we see it, and we are greatful for the truth and seeds the mother ship has left us.

 

[paul_c]

Good question why did he water baptize? CC say for regeneration,wash away original sin.So Cornelius believed with saving faith, baptized in HS, praised God, yet was unregenerate? The old man in him praised God ? The flesh praised God ? I do not think one can be baptized in HS unless he is first born again… Not sure Paul says he received forgiveness of sins only after he was water baptized,as apart from the moment he first believed in the efficacy of Christ crucified.

Peter baptized Cornelius because that was his commission from Jesus: baptize all the nations in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is what the church has always done: follow the teachings of Jesus. That is why the popes are infallible when they teach on matters of faith and morals: because they are only repeating what has been told to them by the ultimate authority: Jesus himself. The sacraments IMPART grace, they are not merely symbols of grace already provided. Cornelius believed and therefore was giving the gifts of the Holy spirit. This allowed him to be baptized and that resulted in his sins being forgiven and being placed in the state of grace

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that I NEVER worry about going to hell and I never presume to think I am going to heaven. I just do my best to follow the church’s teachings and pray that God will have mercy on my soul. I feel completely at peace with this. I would never presume to claim that I have moral certainty of any kind. Our job is to love. That is what we should worry about. We should have faith that Jesus will judge us fairly and with more mercy than we deserve.

Protestants absolutely have the luxury of being on the unsinkable cruise liner that provides everything necessary for a safe journey. The Catholic church is open to all who desire entrance. Why anyone would want to jump off the ship and fend for themselves is beyond my comprehension. Or why they would climb aboard when thrown a life vest. Particularly when they spend so much time and effort trying to convince themselves and others that they have been saved, when in fact they know they passed on the life saver given to them.

 

[pocohombre]

Protestants absolutely have the luxury of being on the unsinkable cruise liner that provides everything necessary for a safe journey. The Catholic church is open to all who desire entrance. Why anyone would want to jump off the ship and fend for themselves is beyond my comprehension. Or why they would climb aboard when thrown a life vest. Particularly when they spend so much time and effort trying to convince themselves and others that they have been saved, when in fact they know they passed on the life saver given to them.

thank you for gracious repsonse. The CC speaks of absolute certainty and assurance in it’s mission, and I would question her when she says you can not.

 

[pocohombre]

Peter baptized Cornelius because that was his commission from Jesus: baptize all the nations in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is what the church has always done: follow the teachings of Jesus. That is why the popes are infallible when they teach on matters of faith and morals: because they are only repeating what has been told to them by the ultimate authority: Jesus himself. The sacraments IMPART grace, they are not merely symbols of grace already provided. Cornelius believed and therefore was giving the gifts of the Holy spirit. This allowed him to be baptized and that resulted in his sins being forgiven and being placed in the state of grace

Where does Jesus say they impart grace, even saving grace?

 

[paul_c]

thank you for gracious repsonse. The CC speaks of absolute certainty and assurance in it’s mission, and I would question her when she says you can not.

The Church’s mission comes from Jesus. He set it up to teach the truths about salvation and to administer the sacraments. (Matthew 28: 18-20) of this, there is no doubt. This is different than the assurance that any individual is guaranteed that they will go to heaven prior to the book being closed on their lives.

 

[paul_c]

Where does Jesus say they impart grace, even saving grace?

Jesus described the eucharist in John 6 and in the last supper discources and describes partaking of His body and blood as necessary for salvation. He states that you need to be born again with water and the spirit to be saved and then commissioned the apostles to baptize all the nations. Why would you assume that Jesus would initiate the sacraments if they weren’t efficacious?

 

[brb3]

thank you for gracious re

psonse. The CC speaks of absolute certainty and assurance in it’s mission, and I would question her when she says you can not.

Ahh!!! You think the Catholic Church teaches we can’t know of our salvation status ?

You were misinformed. The CC teaches us exactly what is needed to be saved …and is the only Church that provides it ‘In Toto’ …

You still haven’t taken time to read the CCC …
Until you do, you are not getting the Full Story.

Start quoting Chp./Verse ( CCC #'s) …then we can help u into Fuller Truth.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I can carry my cross without assurance of salvation as long as I have hope.

Faith, hope, and love abide.

Who needs assurance?

If you have assurance then basically what you’re saying is “I know how God will judge”.

If that were true then how would God be God?

I do know that Jesus said that if you don’t eat Jesus’ body and drink His blood that you do not have life within you.

I used to be a Protestant. I had some close spiritual experiences of God–but I can tell you this much for sure–NOTHING in my entire life–and that includes being baptized at age 10–though that was certainly a very special event for me and I really felt close to God that day–

NOTHING was as PROFOUND and like HEAVEN then the first time I received Jesus in the Eucharist as a Catholic Confirmed by the Holy Spirit!.

Now of course you can’t base your faith in God on just your own personal experiences but the Catholic Church teaches that the CENTER, SOURCE, and SUMMIT of the Catholic faith is the Eucharist!

Malachi said that that SACRIFICE would be offered all over the Earth.

I don’t see it being offered in Protestant churches.

The Catholic Church is the greatest thing that ever happened in my life!

Now do I know how God will judge all the people in the world that don’t eat His body or drink His blood? No I don’t know how God will apply HIS judgement to all sorts of souls under all sorts of circumstances.

I do know because the Catholic Church teaches me that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin will go to Hell!

Do I know how Jesus reads human hearts and is able to tell the state of their souls? No. All I know is IF Jesus judges that they are in a state of mortal sin that they will go to Hell.

I also know that God gives us freedom of will–if we choose to LEAVE God he LETS us Go! If God didn’t LET us Go then God wouldn’t be love for “Love does not demand its own way” like St. Paul told us in Romans.

God Loves people so much that He LETS them go to Hell if they don’t love Him!

He lets them do that AFTER they are saved if that’s what they want to do. And the person who is behind the OSAS theory is Satan! He wants people to believe it–not worry about working their salvation out with fear and trembling–MORTALLY sin–and then he takes them right to Hell!

And they don’t protest about OSAS on the way down to Hell because they never REALLY believed that anyway-they know it–God knows it–and Satan knows it!

Jesus didn’t bear all the sins that have been–are now–and will in the future be committed just to brand robots that He gives the gift of faith to so they can live in heaven FOREVER–REGARDLESS of whether they are transformed to perfection–but just waltz straight in there with the DEPRAVED smell of dung!

Yes friends–Jesus knows that if His cloak is on them and they really ARE DUNG like Luther says that YES they WILL stink and should not be in Heaven–they BELONG in Hell!

The only people that believe this garbage are people who have been DUPED by Satan! The bad thing though is they try to bring people down to Hell with them!

If OSAS is true then really there was no reason for Jesus to die on the cross anyway! If God can and does declare people as justified who have not been CHANGED then why mess with dying on the Cross in the first place–just declare whoever you want to be in Heaven–bring them straight there–and be done with it!

The reason that isn’t the case is that Jesus bore our sins in his body on the Tree–and experienced in His humanity what sin feels like to us–without ever sinning Himself–so that any time we would be repentant we would remember His sacrifice–and the pain of that memory and our sadness for committing ANY sin which is an INFINITE OFFENSE against God since God is INFINITE love–and even more than that Jesus on the Cross gave an INFINITE act of love–THAT’S what justifies and saves people!

It’s not a branding of cattle–yes Jesus does ALL the saving but He allows us to COOPERATE with Him by not acting against Him!

The same Jesus that LETS us COOPERATE in salvation is the same Jesus that gives us a free will to LEAVE Him at anytime!

The Devil cannot SNATCH the sheep from Jesus’ hands but Jesus will let us–whom He called FRIENDS–LEAVE the party! If He MADE us HAVE to come to the party in Heaven if we didn’t want to go–then He wouldn’t be our friend–He would be a monster God that MADE people love Him rather than LET people love Him!

That’s the ultimate reason why Once Saved Always Saved is a crock! The branches that are UNITED to Jesus CAN BE cut off and burned if they don’t bear fruit–and yes friends and neighbors those branches which are ALIVE and are SAVED because of Jesus can be cut off–and burned!

The people in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-32 ARE SAVED people!

Jesus didn’t teach for three years if all it took to be saved was FAITH that He would give and then POOF!–whatever happened after that didn’t matter!

What kind of SENSE does that make?

God who is the great “I AM” and is CONTINUING wants us to CONTINUE–ABIDE–in Him! He won’t MAKE US CONTINUE and ABIDE in Him–if that were true then NOTHING matters–He’ll save who He wants to and send to Hell who He wants to and what we do makes NO DIFFERENCE! OSAS means we don’t COOPERATE on a CONTINUING basis–we’re just branded ONCE and then go to Heaven like DUNG!

If you truly believe that then you have no concept of how much Jesus really did love us on the Cross and the price He paid–He didn’t pay that price for CONTINUING DUNG!!!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I can carry my cross without assurance of salvation as long as I have hope.

Faith, hope, and love abide.

Who needs assurance?

If you have assurance then basically what you’re saying is “I know how God will judge”.

If that were true then how would God be God?

I do know that Jesus said that if you don’t eat Jesus’ body and drink His blood that you do not have life within you.

I used to be a Protestant. I had some close spiritual experiences of god–but i can tell you this much for sure–NOTHING in my entire life–and that includes being baptized at age 10–though that was certainly a very special event for me and I really felt close to God that day–

NOTHING was as PROFOUND and like HEAVEN then the first time I received Jesus in the Eucharist as a Catholic Confirmed by the Holy Spirit!.

Now of course you can’t base your faith in God on just your own personal experiences but the Catholic Church teaches that the CENTER, SOURCE, and SUMMIT of the Catholic faith is the Eucharist!

Malachi said that that SACRIFICE would be offered all over the Earth.

I don’t see it being offered in Protestant churches.

The Catholic Church is the greatest thing that ever happened in my life!

Now do I know how God will judge all the people in the world that don’t eat His body or drink his blood? No i don’t know how God will apply HIS judgement to all sorts of souls under all sorts of circumstances.

I do know because the Catholic church teaches me that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin will go to Hell!

Do i know how Jesus reads human hearts and is able to tell the state of their souls? No. All I know is IF Jesus judges that they are in a state of mortal sin that they will go to Hell.

I also know that God gives us freedom of will–if we choose to LEAVE God he LETS us Go! If God didn’t LET us Go then God wouldn’t be love for “Love does not demand its own way.”

God Loves people so much that He LETS them go to hell if they don’t love Him!

He lets them do that AFTER they are saved if that’s what they want to do. And the person who is behind the OSAS theory is Satan! He wants people to believe it–not worry about working their salvation out with fear and trembling–MORTALLY sin–and then he takes them right to Hell!

And they don’t protest about OSAS on the way down there because they never REALLY believed that anyway-they know it–God knows it–and Satan knows it!

Jesus didn’t bear all the sins that have been–are now–and will in the future be committed just to brand robots that He gives the gift of faith to so they can live in heaven FOREVER–REGARDLESS of whether they are transformed to perfection–but just waltz straight in there with the DEPRAVED smell of dung!

Yes friends–Jesus knows that if His cloak is on them and they really ARE DUNG like Luther says that YES they WILL stink and should not be in Heaven–they BELONG in Hell!

The only people that believe this garbage are people who have been DUPED by Satan! The bad thing though is they try to bring people down to Hell with them!

If OSAS is true then really there was no reason for Jesus to die on the cross anyway! If God can and does declare people as justified who have not been CHANGED then why mess with dying on the Cross in the first place–just declare whoever you want to be in heaven–bring them straight there–and be done with it!

The reason that isn’t the case is that Jesus bore our sins in his body on the Tree–and experienced in his humanity what sin feels like to us–without ever sinning Himself–so that any time we would be repentant we would remember His sacrifice–and the pain of that memory and our sadness for committing ANY sin which is an INFINITE OFFENSE against God sin God is INFINITE love–and even more than that sin Jesus on the Cross gave an INFINITE act of love–THAT’S what justifies and saves people!

It’s not a branding of cattle–yes Jesus does ALL the saving but he allows us to COOPERATE with Him by not acting against Him!

The same Jesus that LETS us COOPERATE in salvation is the same Jesus that gives us a free will to LEAVE Him at anytime!

The Devil cannot SNATCH the sheep from Jesus’ hands but Jesus will let us–whom He call FRIENDS–LEAVE the party! If He MADE us HAVE to come to the party in Heaven if we didn’t want to go–then He wouldn’t be our friend–he would be a monster God that MADE people love him rather than LET people love Him!

That’s the ultimate reason why Once Saved Always Saved is a crock! The branches that are UNITED to Jesus CAN BE cut off and burned if they don’t bear fruit–and yes friends and neighbors those branches which are ALIVE and are SAVED because of Jesus can be cut off–and burned!

The people in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-32 ARE SAVED people!

Jesus didn’t teach for three years if all it took to be saved was FAITH that he would give and then POOF!–whatever happened after that didn’t matter!

What kind of SENSE does that make?

God who is I AM and is CONTINUING wants us to CONTINUE–ABIDE–in Him! He won’t MAKE US CONTINUE and ABIDE in Him–if that were true then NOTHING matters–He’ll saved who He wants to and send to hell who He wants to and what we do makes NO DIFFERENCE! OSAS means we don’t COOPERATE on a CONTINUING basis–we’re just branded ONCE and then go to Heaven like DUNG!

If you truly believe that then you have no concept of how much Jesus really did love us on the Cross and the price He paid–He didn’t pay that price for CONTINUING DUNG!!!

 

[Porknpie]

Old Prof, you are so sure of your personal interpretations. But I have shown you several examples of other requriements beyond faith that are also required for eternal life: doing the will of the Father, partaking of the sacraments, following the commandments. Take that to heart.

It’s always interesting that Protestants remove the bible from the apostolic faith that produced it. The books of the bible, written by, for and about the Catholic Church were determined to be inspired and inerrant based on the Tradition handed down to the Church by the apostles. And of course, it’s interesting that Protestants believe that the Catholic Church was infallible in selecting the books of the bible (out of 300-400 writings in circulation) but don’t believe that it is infallible on faith and morals.

To the point of following the commandments to be saved. From the 2nd century…200+ before the bible:

**“But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, **and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; ‘not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,’ or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.’” Polycarp, To the Philippians, 2 (A.D. 135).

"They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them." Shepherd of Hermas, 2 Comm 7 (A.D. 155).

"But those who do not keep his commandments, flee from his life, and despise him. But he has his own honour with the Lord. All, therefore, who shall despise him, and not follow his commands, deliver themselves to death, and every one of them will be guilty of his own blood. But I enjoin you, that you obey his commands, and you will have a cure for your former sins." Shepherd of Hermas, 3 Sim 10:2 (A.D. 155).

 

[Porknpie]

Jesus described the eucharist in John 6 and in the last supper discources and describes partaking of His body and blood as necessary for salvation. He states that you need to be born again with water and the spirit to be saved and then commissioned the apostles to baptize all the nations. Why would you assume that Jesus would initiate the sacraments if they weren’t efficacious?

And we see an early Church…believing in the Real Presence immediately, almost 300 years before the bible existed

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

Justin Martyr and the early Church was taught (by the apostles & their descendants) in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Protestants have been taught, 1,500 years later that it is only symbolic.

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

More can be read of what the early church wrote in Scripture Catholic .com on the Eucharist.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree - no question there are “faux believers” (professing believers who really are not - I think that is what you mean).

How does one know if he’s a faux believer or a true believer?

Is it my “belief” that the Bible claims there is an assurance of salvation, or does the Bible simply state that fact?

There is no question that there is assurance of salvation. Some of us will be saved.

The question is: can *you * (or I) know that you’re one of these people who will be saved?

The Bible doesn’t say, does it?

That’s a man made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, OldProf.

 

[pocohombre]

Jesus described the eucharist in John 6 and in the last supper discources and describes partaking of His body and blood as necessary for salvation. He states that you need to be born again with water and the spirit to be saved and then commissioned the apostles to baptize all the nations. Why would you assume that Jesus would initiate the sacraments if they weren’t efficacious?

Was circumcision efficacious, for all who were?