Assurance of Salvation

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zrs6v4 #20
im also a protestant
i then would encourage you to look into the scriptures and let your belief (Spirit willing) come from there rather than someones interpretation.
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Welcome to this Thread.

Who faithful Catholics follow is Christ who did not give us anything written but gave us His Church who gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the inspired Word of God.

So no one’s “belief” suffices for His truth unless it is based on the teaching of His Church and She is the only correct interpreter of Her Sacred Scriptures. The Holy Spirit protects His Church from teaching error, but does not protect anyone from error who chooses to disregard Her teaching.

So private interpretation is a denial of Christ who wrote nothing and used quotes from the OT, as He established His Church and explicitly made four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

“And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.’ (Jn 21:25).

The result of private interpretation has been tens of thousands of differing and confused sects and their “interpretations” among those outside of His Church.
 
zrs6v4 said:
As you said your mother had good intentions, she believes the Bible and bc she cares for you wanted to discuss your salvation. Its hard to tell anything about anyone but your way of getting out of the debate was an obvious “im done” by a fake agreement. I would take it that way at least.

Second, im also a protestant, so i want to be open there and I know this is a hot discussion. I joined the board a couple of years ago to better understand catholicism and that meant reading and respectfully staying out of debate when possible. Now there are 1,000 breads of protestant nowadays so dont look at us all as one clump :). I would not encourage you to try to stay faithful to any branch or religious system before God. This is a downfall to all systems we try to defend our systems not how we hear God. Good systems come from that foundation (bible) even though many claim to. We follow jesus and he is who we look to and directly under him are the apostles.

Anyway, id let her hearts concern soak in a bit in line with the reality you believe. Heaven, hell, God dying on a cross for you, living for Him, the second coming, etc. i then would encourage you to look into the scriptures and let your belief (Spirit willing) come from there rather than someones interpretation. Im not againts others interpretations but they must be secondary and used with good judgment.

As for your debate, i think its ok, just realize what you guys are talking about and how serious it actually is. I think you speaking to her or her to you is a must based on the weight of it.
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Hmmm… I understand where you are coming from, but surely you agree with me that truth is not something that is subjective to one’s opinion and that if something is truth, it’s truth. I’m sure that Jesus wouldn’t allow His faithful followers to be deceived and confused with so many different branches of Christianity that are all correct yet wrong at the same time. There has to be one Church out of all of them that can claim to go back to the Apostles which Jesus preserves from error, who, as you said, are directly under Jesus. Right :)?
 
Oumashta said:
I kind of don’t get the last part of the chapter from the Council of Trent. Does that mean that we cannot be sure that we have received God’s grace? Or have I just read it wrongly :p? Thanks and God bless.
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Maybe the following, from the Catechism, will help. Grace is always resistible in Catholic teaching; our wills are never uninvolved IOW. It’s not Him we’d have any reason to doubt, but ourselves.

**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
Code: 
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
**
 
Abu said:
Welcome to this Thread.

Who faithful Catholics follow is Christ who did not give us anything written but gave us His Church who gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the inspired Word of God.

So no one’s “belief” suffices for His truth unless it is based on the teaching of His Church and She is the only correct interpreter of Her Sacred Scriptures. The Holy Spirit protects His Church from teaching error, but does not protect anyone from error who chooses to disregard Her teaching.

So private interpretation is a denial of Christ who wrote nothing and used quotes from the OT, as He established His Church and explicitly made four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

“And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.’ (Jn 21:25).

The result of private interpretation has been tens of thousands of differing and confused sects and their “interpretations” among those outside of His Church.
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We have some points of agreement, points im not sure if we agree or not, and points of disagreement. I appreciate your response as I was not aware that genuine catholics put church authority over biblical authority. Im sure within that topic we would agree on apostalic authority but would take different paths as to what God meant. I will not get the thread to off topic to respond to your individual points that were helpful in understanding your view.

-zach
 
Oumashta said:
Hmmm… I understand where you are coming from, but surely you agree with me that truth is not something that is subjective to one’s opinion and that if something is truth, it’s truth. I’m sure that Jesus wouldn’t allow His faithful followers to be deceived and confused with so many different branches of Christianity that are all correct yet wrong at the same time. There has to be one Church out of all of them that can claim to go back to the Apostles which Jesus preserves from error, who, as you said, are directly under Jesus. Right :)?
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I believe in absolute truth. Or better said i know in absolute truth :), the word believe is used subjectively these days.

My view is that absolute truth is found in Scripture (given through prophets, jesus, apostles). They are the foundation for unwavering absolute truth. I believe that the church can be viewed as local and spiritual. That is that in our world she is scattered among various branches who share essential beliefs. I believe the one true church that will be with God one day will come from various christ following folks. For example not all baptists or catholics are of the church but the ones who are are apart of the church in the spiritual sense having the holy spirit making them share essential common grounds while yet not agreeing on every topic. There are a lot of things God does that doesnt make sense such as why the church is not found in one denomination or under one leader (other than christ).

I hope that helps. Im just stating my view and understanding thus far. I know i probably aroused some heat in my comments but it was not intended so please dont imagine me as the evangelist to the catholic forums but rather with a smile and having a friendlu conversation (which is my intention).
 
zrs6v4 #25
There are a lot of things God does that doesnt make sense such as why the church is not found in one denomination or under one leader (other than christ).
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God does not do anything that doesn’t make sense; otherwise He would not be God. We have to seek to understand.

We know that The Son of God “did not leave us orphans”. He founded only one Church with His full authority (post #21), and just as a man betrayed Him, Judas one of His chosen, so have others defied His Will (Acts of the Apostles), to the extent of forming their own sects.

Only His Church is able to teach the fullness of truth in His Name on faith and morals and feed us with His Body and Blood.
 
Abu said:
God does not do anything that doesn’t make sense; otherwise He would not be God. We have to seek to understand.

We know that The Son of God “did not leave us orphans”. He founded only one Church with His full authority (post #21), and just as a man betrayed Him, Judas one of His chosen, so have others defied His Will (Acts of the Apostles), to the extent of forming their own sects.

Only His Church is able to teach the fullness of truth in His Name on faith and morals and feed us with His Body and Blood.
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I should have been more clear, God does many thing that dont make sense “to us”. Example: why God let Satan decieve man and allow that to lead to sin entering mankind. Another is why God gave us the bible through fallible man (inspired of course by the Spirit). My point is that we want thing black and white when God does things we not only dont understand but would do differently if we were him like avoid the whole sin thing and everyone goes to heaven. I hope that makes sense. In our discussion it would be easier for there to be one right denomination or system but (from my view) there isnt. Rather theres billions of religions/worldviews a few classify as true and most are sinful confusion.

Im going to stop here, not that this isnt a good discussion but my original intent is not to challenge the forums view of church. I feel like ive already said to much and until i hear a go from a moderater ill keep silent (i hope).

I will say that the fullness of the church can be manifest by converts who live in the jungle who meet together, worshipping God in every aspect of their odd lives, and reaching lost tribes nearby. I am not saying cultic or idol worshipping tribes but am talking about tribes who have been reached with the gospel and havent heard of catholic or protestant.
 
zrs6v4 #27,
I will say that the fullness of the church can be manifest by converts who live in the jungle who meet together, worshipping God in every aspect of their odd lives, and reaching lost tribes nearby. I am not saying cultic or idol worshipping tribes but am talking about tribes who have been reached with the gospel and havent heard of catholic or protestant.
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Of course the fullness of Christ’s truth would certainly not be present because the fact is that “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.’ (Jn 21:25).

Christ gave us His Church which includes the Bible, Tradition and His Magisterium, including the priesthood, seven sacraments and the holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
 
zrs6v4 said:
We have some points of agreement, points im not sure if we agree or not, and points of disagreement. I appreciate your response as I was not aware that genuine catholics put church authority over biblical authority. Im sure within that topic we would agree on apostalic authority but would take different paths as to what God meant. I will not get the thread to off topic to respond to your individual points that were helpful in understanding your view.

-zach
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Just as a point of clarification, genuine Catholics DO NOT put church authority over biblical authority, but rather see them as working in concert, one with the other.
This section of the Catechism might be helpful to you.

Beyond this, I agree that we should be getting further off topic and besides, there are already many threads on the subject of authority.

Peace
James
 
Oumashta said:
I hope this is the right place to put this thread 😃

I have a question about the Catholic teachings about assurance of salvation and how to defend it. My mother, who is a Protestant minister, just recently finished a course in Protestant evangelization and decided that I would be a good person to start with 😛 My mother has no problem now with me becoming a Baptized Catholic soon, but she wanted to make sure that I knew the ‘full gospel’. Although I know that she had good intentions, many of the things that she tried to convince me of were extremely contrary to Catholic teaching, such as sola fide and assurance of salvation. She repeatedly asked me the question ‘If you were to die today, would you know for sure you would go to Heaven?’ I told her that I hope to go to Heaven, but that this decision was up to God and not me. She then told me that ‘We need to rely on God’s promises because He told us that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.’ I tried to explain to her in a kind way that we are not saved by faith alone and explained to her my position on assurance of salvation, but she continued to ask me over again. Finally, she asked me again. It was 11:30 PM, I was tired, somewhat frustrated, and I wanted to go to bed, and so I just smiled and said ‘Most certainly :D!’ and then she let me off.

So my questions are:
  1. Did I do anything wrong by saying that I had assurance of salvation just to get out of my mother’s questioning, even though I didn’t mean it?
  2. How do I calm my mother fears about me ‘being saved’ and ‘being sure you’re going to Heaven’ while staying true and explaining to her the Catholic Church’s teachings?
Thanks and God bless! 😃
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mnmnmn
 
I can only give you my personal take on this, but here goes:

When you accept that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour and that He has redeamed us all you have made an act of faith. When you have made this act of faith it follows that you will want to live your life as our Lord has told us to. Not too hard from my point of view. He told us to “Love God with our whole heart …, and to love our neighbor as ourselves”. In effect we have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
So, if we truly have faith our lives will follow what our Lord has asked of us. Believing and living those beliefs puts us in harmony with our Lord. We can therefore have confidence that He has given the gift of salvation and we have accepted that gift.
I believe that one has the option of accepting or rejecting this gift but once it is truly accepted I will do my part and my Lord and Saviour will do and has done His part.
Is this presumptiom? No, it requires positive action from me. Can it be lost? As we are imperfect beings I expect that we can fall from grace but can regain it as well. But this brings us back to having true and committed faith.
So, your mother is correct as far as she goes but she needs to go just a bit farther. To answer her question I would say yes, so long as I am true to my faith and live my faith I am confident that our Lord Jesus has redeamed me and given me the gift of Salvation.
I realize that this discussion raises a multitude of questions, but for me I trust my Lord and I will do my best to walk the walk as well as talking the talk.
AMDG
 
Is it possible for a Catholic to know that he is saved if that is told to him in a private revelation?
 
zrs6v4 said:
I believe in absolute truth. Or better said i know in absolute truth :), the word believe is used subjectively these days.

My view is that absolute truth is found in Scripture (given through prophets, jesus, apostles). They are the foundation for unwavering absolute truth. I believe that the church can be viewed as local and spiritual. That is that in our world she is scattered among various branches who share essential beliefs. I believe the one true church that will be with God one day will come from various christ following folks. For example not all baptists or catholics are of the church but the ones who are are apart of the church in the spiritual sense having the holy spirit making them share essential common grounds while yet not agreeing on every topic. There are a lot of things God does that doesnt make sense such as why the church is not found in one denomination or under one leader (other than christ).

I hope that helps. Im just stating my view and understanding thus far. I know i probably aroused some heat in my comments but it was not intended so please dont imagine me as the evangelist to the catholic forums but rather with a smile and having a friendlu conversation (which is my intention).
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Your view has been expressed here so many times that It will hardly generate “heat” as you say. 😉

That said, I must offer, in response to your position, that it is almost entirely non-biblical. In fact, and this is based on my own research and questioning, the two churches who most closely approximate what the NT bible describes are the EO and the RC…In other words the two most ancient of the Christian Churches…both of whom teach that the Church is visible and Authoritative.
In my discussions with Protestants, I have laid out how the NT clearly points to this - the visible and authoritative Church model. Of course as often happens they disagree with me at which point I ask them to show - From the bible (their ultimate authority) - where the "invisible church, multiple denomination, only agreeing on (so called) essentials is spelled out.
If you can show me this in Scripture…you would be the first.

That is why I can confidently say that the view you express, of the “invisible church” is in error…Though I will say this. While it is a fundamentally flawed premise, there is an element of truth contained in it. An element that no right thinking Catholic will disagree with.
That element of Truth is that those who will be saved will not come exclusively from the RCC, likewise being a member of the RCC is not a guarantee of being saved.

Peace
James
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Is it possible for a Catholic to know that he is saved if that is told to him in a private revelation?
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This is what the Council of Trent, session 6, chapter 12 says:

**"That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself."
**
And even then I’m sure the Church would caution us to be very discerning about it.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Has anyone ever had a special revelation like that?
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I’d like to hear what others know of this but, while the Church apparently allows for this experience, and while I’d bet their have been those who’ve received it, I tend to think this would be a kind of revelation most would hesitate to share.
 
“Assurance of Salvation” is not taught in our church. Seems like it’s common in a lot of other Protestant churches though.
 
After attending Protestant Churches for the past 30 yrs, I recently came back to the Catholic Church. I read this in a Catholic brochure, “When someone asks us whether we’re ‘saved,’ perhaps the best short answer is this: 'Well, I’m doing what the Apostle Paul tells us to do in the Bible: I’m ‘working out’ my salvation day by day.” In the Douay-Rheims Version of the Bible it states, “with fear and trembling work out your salvation.” That hardly sounds like a guarantee of salvation, right? I was taught for years that the verse is referring to our walk with God, not our salvation, but that just doesn’t make any sense to me. Why would I have to “with fear and trembling” work out my walk with God. This is one of the verses that brought me back home to the Catholic Church.
 
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