D
David_Castlen
Guest
Welcome home Christinme!!!
Your profile says you are not a Catholic… Can you change it?
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Your profile says you are not a Catholic… Can you change it?
O
OldProf
Guest
To: Oumashta Re: Can we have assurance of salvation question, posted on 24 Mar 2012.
I hope this thread is still alive, but, being new to the forum, I’m not sure how it all works.
Biblically, I see strong reasons to believe the true Christian can have an assurance of salvation. But I don’t want to go there yet.
The first response to your question from “Tietjen” listed a web site. Though that website may be impressive with “all” the bible quotations, I should tell you that it is common for apologists to blast out a bunch of verses to overwhelm you and say, “See, this confirms my position.” I’ve seen this with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc. too, so am prepared to critically review what slant their theology may have on the scriptural proofs they provide.
So, I looked at the web site to see how it handled a “real” argument, and, sure enough, it just glossed over it and moved on. I’ll demonstrate why you can’t do that in a bit.
Another response you had from “thistle” said, “The only people who are assured of salvation are those who are baptised, Catholic, and die in a state of grace.” That’s more old school Roman Catholic view that can be seen in historical documents. But, really, it can be shortened to, “No, you must die in a state of grace.” With mortal sin as an ever present possibility in your life, which removes you from a state of grace, then if you die at that time before you do the penance to get back into a state of grace, then you are lost and will go to hell.
Basically, you cannot have assurance. That is really what you need to tell your Mother to be consistent with RC theology (and you’ve seen demonstrated in the responses so far).
The Council of Trent anathematized those who would teach that you can have the assurance of salvation - that’s what my library of their documents says. And the reason I have those documents and poured over them is because I studied with a Roman Catholic priest in 1997/98 who, though 87 at that time, wanted me to teach on comparative religion. He was still sharp, and was prepping me for the RCIA program. He had been a former Dean of Theology at one of the Roman Catholic universities and was feeding me a lot of Scott Hahn materials. I guess he thought Hahn’s conversion would have the stongest impact on a man of my higher education.
When we discussed the doctrine of mortal sin, we got into this subject of assurance. I told him what I told you above - my support of assurance - and then provided several arguments. Here is one of several he simply could not answer, nor do I think any Roman Catholic theologian can answer (or at least we shall see, since this is a RC apologetics site
).
So here goes:
Please read John 9:35 through John 10:30. Are you done reading it? Good.
Here we have a clear distinction. Jesus knows his sheep and they know Him, and the Pharisees are not part of Jesus’ flock.
Jesus - and we know he is a good shepherd (v. 11 and the duty to go after strays from the flock, Luke 15:4-7) - says, v. 28, His sheep will “never” parish. This translated word “never” comes from 4 greek words, which mean, as a whole, not at this present time or at any future time.
The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28 as, “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” (On the internet, Biblegateway has this translation along with all the rest.)
So do we need to fix the Bible here? Are we to change Jesus’ words so eternal life is a possibility as long as the “believer” doesn’t choose to leave Christianity or doesn’t commit a mortal sin and die outside of a state of grace?
It seems like we can leave it as is. This is consistent with the understanding that no one can snatch them out of the hand of Jesus or the father (vv. 28-30), that a good work started by God will be completed by God (Php 1:6), that none the Father gives to the Son will ever be lost (John 6:37-40 seems pretty clear on that point), and that those non-Christians who profess to be real Christians were actually never, repeat, never a part of the His sheep flock (Matt 7:21-23, 1 John 2:19).
If you check these verses, it is difficult to let them stand as they are and still believe that a true Christian, a true sheep in Jesus flock, can actually perish in hell in the end. But, if I’m wrong about this, I would ask someone to show me why :bible1:.
The other question is, what are the evidences that a person is really a Christian? But that is another topic.
In Christ, OldProf
I hope this thread is still alive, but, being new to the forum, I’m not sure how it all works.
Biblically, I see strong reasons to believe the true Christian can have an assurance of salvation. But I don’t want to go there yet.
The first response to your question from “Tietjen” listed a web site. Though that website may be impressive with “all” the bible quotations, I should tell you that it is common for apologists to blast out a bunch of verses to overwhelm you and say, “See, this confirms my position.” I’ve seen this with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc. too, so am prepared to critically review what slant their theology may have on the scriptural proofs they provide.
So, I looked at the web site to see how it handled a “real” argument, and, sure enough, it just glossed over it and moved on. I’ll demonstrate why you can’t do that in a bit.
Another response you had from “thistle” said, “The only people who are assured of salvation are those who are baptised, Catholic, and die in a state of grace.” That’s more old school Roman Catholic view that can be seen in historical documents. But, really, it can be shortened to, “No, you must die in a state of grace.” With mortal sin as an ever present possibility in your life, which removes you from a state of grace, then if you die at that time before you do the penance to get back into a state of grace, then you are lost and will go to hell.
Basically, you cannot have assurance. That is really what you need to tell your Mother to be consistent with RC theology (and you’ve seen demonstrated in the responses so far).
The Council of Trent anathematized those who would teach that you can have the assurance of salvation - that’s what my library of their documents says. And the reason I have those documents and poured over them is because I studied with a Roman Catholic priest in 1997/98 who, though 87 at that time, wanted me to teach on comparative religion. He was still sharp, and was prepping me for the RCIA program. He had been a former Dean of Theology at one of the Roman Catholic universities and was feeding me a lot of Scott Hahn materials. I guess he thought Hahn’s conversion would have the stongest impact on a man of my higher education.
When we discussed the doctrine of mortal sin, we got into this subject of assurance. I told him what I told you above - my support of assurance - and then provided several arguments. Here is one of several he simply could not answer, nor do I think any Roman Catholic theologian can answer (or at least we shall see, since this is a RC apologetics site
).So here goes:
Please read John 9:35 through John 10:30. Are you done reading it? Good.
Here we have a clear distinction. Jesus knows his sheep and they know Him, and the Pharisees are not part of Jesus’ flock.
Jesus - and we know he is a good shepherd (v. 11 and the duty to go after strays from the flock, Luke 15:4-7) - says, v. 28, His sheep will “never” parish. This translated word “never” comes from 4 greek words, which mean, as a whole, not at this present time or at any future time.
The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28 as, “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” (On the internet, Biblegateway has this translation along with all the rest.)
So do we need to fix the Bible here? Are we to change Jesus’ words so eternal life is a possibility as long as the “believer” doesn’t choose to leave Christianity or doesn’t commit a mortal sin and die outside of a state of grace?
It seems like we can leave it as is. This is consistent with the understanding that no one can snatch them out of the hand of Jesus or the father (vv. 28-30), that a good work started by God will be completed by God (Php 1:6), that none the Father gives to the Son will ever be lost (John 6:37-40 seems pretty clear on that point), and that those non-Christians who profess to be real Christians were actually never, repeat, never a part of the His sheep flock (Matt 7:21-23, 1 John 2:19).
If you check these verses, it is difficult to let them stand as they are and still believe that a true Christian, a true sheep in Jesus flock, can actually perish in hell in the end. But, if I’m wrong about this, I would ask someone to show me why :bible1:.
The other question is, what are the evidences that a person is really a Christian? But that is another topic.
In Christ, OldProf
F
fhansen
Guest
Scripture possesses everything we need to understand Gods’ plan of salvation, so long as we take the whole thing in context. If we take one part of the bible that apparently supports the idea that a believer can know with certainty they’re saved, and ignore the myriad of verses and parables that admonish believers to strive, persevere, invest their talents, keep oil in their lamps, be vigilant, be holy, be perfect, refrain from sin, continue to live in the Spirit, do good, feed the poor, clothe the naked, express their faith in love, generally with the loss of eternal life if they don’t, then we may well be led astray. There’d be no reason for such admonitions if there was no chance of a believer losing their salvation. And, if it’s possible to lose it, then we have no way to know with 100% certainty who will persevere till the end, who God will judge to be a sheep vs a goat, who Christ counts as His own. Only He can know with that degree of certainty. Anyway, this is one more reason why the Church, as the “pillar and foundation of truth”, is so necessary to give us correct understanding of the gospel-and why Trent warns against “vain confidence” regarding ones salvation.To: Oumashta Re: Can we have assurance of salvation question, posted on 24 Mar 2012.
I hope this thread is still alive, but, being new to the forum, I’m not sure how it all works.
Biblically, I see strong reasons to believe the true Christian can have an assurance of salvation. But I don’t want to go there yet.
The first response to your question from “Tietjen” listed a web site. Though that website may be impressive with “all” the bible quotations, I should tell you that it is common for apologists to blast out a bunch of verses to overwhelm you and say, “See, this confirms my position.” I’ve seen this with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc. too, so am prepared to critically review what slant their theology may have on the scriptural proofs they provide.
So, I looked at the web site to see how it handled a “real” argument, and, sure enough, it just glossed over it and moved on. I’ll demonstrate why you can’t do that in a bit.
Another response you had from “thistle” said, “The only people who are assured of salvation are those who are baptised, Catholic, and die in a state of grace.” That’s more old school Roman Catholic view that can be seen in historical documents. But, really, it can be shortened to, “No, you must die in a state of grace.” With mortal sin as an ever present possibility in your life, which removes you from a state of grace, then if you die at that time before you do the penance to get back into a state of grace, then you are lost and will go to hell.
Basically, you cannot have assurance. That is really what you need to tell your Mother to be consistent with RC theology (and you’ve seen demonstrated in the responses so far).
The Council of Trent anathematized those who would teach that you can have the assurance of salvation - that’s what my library of their documents says. And the reason I have those documents and poured over them is because I studied with a Roman Catholic priest in 1997/98 who, though 87 at that time, wanted me to teach on comparative religion. He was still sharp, and was prepping me for the RCIA program. He had been a former Dean of Theology at one of the Roman Catholic universities and was feeding me a lot of Scott Hahn materials. I guess he thought Hahn’s conversion would have the stongest impact on a man of my higher education.
When we discussed the doctrine of mortal sin, we got into this subject of assurance. I told him what I told you above - my support of assurance - and then provided several arguments. Here is one of several he simply could not answer, nor do I think any Roman Catholic theologian can answer (or at least we shall see, since this is a RC apologetics site
So here goes:
Please read John 9:35 through John 10:30. Are you done reading it? Good.
Here we have a clear distinction. Jesus knows his sheep and they know Him, and the Pharisees are not part of Jesus’ flock.
Jesus - and we know he is a good shepherd (v. 11 and the duty to go after strays from the flock, Luke 15:4-7) - says, v. 28, His sheep will “never” parish. This translated word “never” comes from 4 greek words, which mean, as a whole, not at this present time or at any future time.
The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28 as, “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” (On the internet, Biblegateway has this translation along with all the rest.)
So do we need to fix the Bible here? Are we to change Jesus’ words so eternal life is a possibility as long as the “believer” doesn’t choose to leave Christianity or doesn’t commit a mortal sin and die outside of a state of grace?
It seems like we can leave it as is. This is consistent with the understanding that no one can snatch them out of the hand of Jesus or the father (vv. 28-30), that a good work started by God will be completed by God (Php 1:6), that none the Father gives to the Son will ever be lost (John 6:37-40 seems pretty clear on that point), and that those non-Christians who profess to be real Christians were actually never, repeat, never a part of the His sheep flock (Matt 7:21-23, 1 John 2:19).
If you check these verses, it is difficult to let them stand as they are and still believe that a true Christian, a true sheep in Jesus flock, can actually perish in hell in the end. But, if I’m wrong about this, I would ask someone to show me why :bible1:.
The other question is, what are the evidences that a person is really a Christian? But that is another topic.
In Christ, OldProf
A
Abu
Guest
Thistle’s view is false, but further, there is no such “old school Roman Catholic view” – it is totally non-historical.
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].
Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
How strange that dying without repentance should be rewarded by eternal life! A new saviour apparently.
Christ offers no one the “assurance of salvation”, regardless.
What a travesty of the work of Christ who established His Church – private interpretation is a denial of Christ who wrote nothing and used quotes from the OT, as He established His Church and explicitly made four promises to Peter alone (post #21).
J
jcrichton
Guest
**…this is an issue that does cause confusion… the term “church” is often seen only as the Catholic Church (Roman) which would necesitate that there be no other Believers; conversely, rejecting the only institution founded by Christ or relegating her to the whore of Babylon nullifies Christ’s Words and most, if not all, of the New Testament.
Maran atha!
Angel**
J
jcrichton
Guest
…but is this proliferation of “churches” or “bodies of Christ” not a direct result of man’s reengineering Christ’s Church, in his own image?Second, im also a protestant, so i want to be open there and I know this is a hot discussion. I joined the board a couple of years ago to better understand catholicism and that meant reading and respectfully staying out of debate when possible. Now there are 1,000 breads of protestant nowadays so dont look at us all as one clump
…have you not noticed that by asserting that the Church founded by Christ is part of many beliefs “systems” you are, in essence, claiming that man, not Christ, founded the “Church?”
…so the Apostles and their successors got it wrong… there was no founding of Christ’s Church nor did Christ send the other Paraclete to Dwell in her and Guide her… instead God relies on a “spiritual connection” with each individual human being?
…so when they (or any other debaters) meet, how is it determined that one was right and the other wrong since both (all) will be using Sacred Scriptures for prooftexting and both can claim that it is their belief “system” that is “Spirit willing?”
…and what if several others join in and they determine that they are both wrong on certain issues and that they are both right in other issues… would then a collective bargaining based on “majority rule” determine what Yahweh God truly means to Reveal?
(I apologize for any perceived derision; please do not take my queries as an assault, I truly like to know how non-Catholics reason.)
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…yet it is man’s guidelines and understanding that you have followed to bring you to ascertain such theological conclusions:I believe in absolute truth. Or better said i know in absolute truth
My view is that absolute truth is found in Scripture (given through prophets, jesus, apostles). They are the foundation for unwavering absolute truth. I believe that the church can be viewed as local and spiritual. That is that in our world she is scattered among various branches who share essential beliefs. I believe the one true church that will be with God one day will come from various christ following folks. For example not all baptists or catholics are of the church but the ones who are are apart of the church in the spiritual sense having the holy spirit making them share essential common grounds while yet not agreeing on every topic. There are a lot of things God does that doesnt make sense such as why the church is not found in one denomination or under one leader (other than christ).
I hope that helps. Im just stating my view and understanding thus far. I know i probably aroused some heat in my comments but it was not intended so please dont imagine me as the evangelist to the catholic forums but rather with a smile and having a friendlu conversation (which is my intention).
- Absolute Truth is found only in Scripture
- There are many differing “church bodies” from which the true Church will emerge
- Not all who belong to the various groups are the “Church”
- God has determine that the “Chruch” not be found under un denomination or leader
I cannot determine for myself what the Word of God means nor can I profess to lead others to a belief outside of that which has been patented by the other Paraclete: the Church is the Body of Christ: the Chruch is Truth!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…which necesitates that Christ did not found a Church and that all roads do lead to God… just as long as the belief system is based on God, man, Scripture… consider that not one single Apostle asked Jesus for a new set of Sacred Writings, that the first New Testament Writings emerged years after Christ’s Ascension, and that the Apostles themselves did not mandate that the Scriptures be put into a single volume format so that it could be reproduced and made compulsatory reading and carrying by every member of every Christian community that they founded and taught.
The One Faith existed as One Church with both the Written and Oral Word of God decades before the last New Testament book was written and centuries before the Bible was compiled.
It is an error to believe that Christ’s Church ceased to exist once the last of the Thirteen Apostles died!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…but my understanding of non-Catholic theology is that Salvation is somehow achieved with certainty and that it is not lost… something that seems to escape the Apostles:
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…again, God will not give me a carte blanche:
…when Jesus discharged those whom He physically healed/saved, He Commanded that they sin no more–He never stated that they were eternally Saved! Jesus guarantees only that He is Life (St. John 14:6) and that those who Believe in Him will be Saved (St. John 3:15-16)… problem is that “Believe” does not mean accept that Jesus is Who He Says He is… “Believe” means abide in Him so that He may Abide in us (St. John 14, 15, 16).
We can, through action or inaction, reject Salvation; hence, Salvation is not a guarantee!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…quite the contrary… most personal revelations that I’ve heard of either maintain a dependency on Christ (hence no secured Salvation) or is about the person’s own feelings of frailty and spiritual failure (which I believe is due to the individual feeling inadequate in his/her surrender to Christ).
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
O
OldProf
Guest
fhansen, I certainly do not want to ignore other verses or take things out of context. And I don’t think I did here, but instead provided the complete context - which demonstrates that Christians, Jesus’ sheep, will never perish. The Roman Catholic Church does teach that a person can be in a state of grace, meaning that they are a Christian, yet they can commit a mortal sin and die and perish. You must think I am wrong about what Jesus teaches here. Why am I wrong about this Scripture?
Regards, OldProf
O
OldProf
Guest
Abu #44
- I respectfully disagree that “it is totally non-historical.” Quite a few RC writings indicate salvation is only possible inside the Church - the RC Church. These writings from 400-1200 years ago don’t mince too many words. Vatican II and the CCC do teach it differently now.
- I have no idea where the “dying without repentance” comment comes from. Is it possible you were thinking of someone else’s post? You are not a Christian if you don’t recognize and repent of your sins.
- Private interpretation. Am I “interpreting” something wrong about the Scripture quoted in my post? If so, I would like to know and be corrected, please. I have a great desire to know God through His Word.
- If possible, can you stick to the scriptures I have provided and explain how a Christian can lose their salvation and therefore not have any assurance of salvation. I feel confident of the change in my life after I repented, and feel a promise from God for assurance (1 John 5:13).
J
jcrichton
Guest
I’m pedestrian and skeptical of scholars…To: Oumashta Re: Can we have assurance of salvation question, posted on 24 Mar 2012.
I hope this thread is still alive, but, being new to the forum, I’m not sure how it all works.
Biblically, I see strong reasons to believe the true Christian can have an assurance of salvation. But I don’t want to go there yet…
Basically, you cannot have assurance. That is really what you need to tell your Mother to be consistent with RC theology (and you’ve seen demonstrated in the responses so far).
The Council of Trent anathematized those who would teach that you can have the assurance of salvation - that’s what my library of their documents says. And the reason I have those documents and poured over them is because I studied with a Roman Catholic priest in 1997/98 who, though 87 at that time, wanted me to teach on comparative religion. He was still sharp, and was prepping me for the RCIA program. He had been a former Dean of Theology at one of the Roman Catholic universities and was feeding me a lot of Scott Hahn materials. I guess he thought Hahn’s conversion would have the stongest impact on a man of my higher education.
When we discussed the doctrine of mortal sin, we got into this subject of assurance. I told him what I told you above - my support of assurance - and then provided several arguments. Here is one of several he simply could not answer, nor do I think any Roman Catholic theologian can answer (or at least we shall see, since this is a RC apologetics site
So here goes:
Please read John 9:35 through John 10:30. Are you done reading it? Good.
Here we have a clear distinction. Jesus knows his sheep and they know Him, and the Pharisees are not part of Jesus’ flock.
Jesus - and we know he is a good shepherd (v. 11 and the duty to go after strays from the flock, Luke 15:4-7) - says, v. 28, His sheep will “never” parish. This translated word “never” comes from 4 greek words, which mean, as a whole, not at this present time or at any future time.
The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28 as, “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” (On the internet, Biblegateway has this translation along with all the rest.)
So do we need to fix the Bible here? Are we to change Jesus’ words so eternal life is a possibility as long as the “believer” doesn’t choose to leave Christianity or doesn’t commit a mortal sin and die outside of a state of grace?
It seems like we can leave it as is. This is consistent with the understanding that no one can snatch them out of the hand of Jesus or the father (vv. 28-30), that a good work started by God will be completed by God (Php 1:6), that none the Father gives to the Son will ever be lost (John 6:37-40 seems pretty clear on that point), and that those non-Christians who profess to be real Christians were actually never, repeat, never a part of the His sheep flock (Matt 7:21-23, 1 John 2:19).
If you check these verses, it is difficult to let them stand as they are and still believe that a true Christian, a true sheep in Jesus flock, can actually perish in hell in the end. But, if I’m wrong about this, I would ask someone to show me why :bible1:.
The other question is, what are the evidences that a person is really a Christian? But that is another topic.
In Christ, OldProf
That said, welcome to the forum!
I suggest that you do not pile up responses on one single post since it tends to confuse and prolong the texting, reading, and the length of the response…
Your first argument is not really convincing since the strongest point is that God is Omnipotent yet man is frail–I can and am able to reject God’s Gift of Salvation… this happens every single day in the news… some Catholic Priests want to promote this theology of equality and Salvation for all as they call every human being a child of God… but Scriptures state quite the difference since not all Believed (St. John 1 and 3); Salvation is quite the same… due to God’s choice to Create us in His Image and Likeness we are granted Free Will and thus the ability not only to chose Life but also the ability to chose death (Deuteronomy 30:15-20)
Is Salvation a Gift? Yes!
Can all of humanity achieve it? Yes!
Is it guaranteed? No!
St. Paul warns the Galatian Christians that they must submit to Christ for remaining in sin will forfeit Salvation (Galatians 5:13-21); and if someone still does not get it St. Paul renders the perishing powers of sin thusly: you sin you die, no matter who you are! (1 Corinthians 10:1-12)
Salvation, my friend, is free for the asking–yet optained only through Living in the Light:
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…demons knew Christ and called Him on it… but they reject Yahweh God’s Authority… it is our choice not God’s that we perish:
Israel is called the First-Born and gods… yet Israel, except for the Remnant, rejects God; conversely, many who claim Jesus as Lord reject Him through their own actions and will perish:
…it could hardly be said that Jesus made a mistake or that demons or non-Believers somehow decided to experiment with Jesus’ Name and managed to do good… Jesus is speaking to and of the body of Believers: ‘don’t just call me Lord (feel you have optained Salvation) but do the Will of my Father (abide in Me so that I may Abide in you).’
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
It is not the God part of the “feeling of assurance” that does us in… it is the “I will not lose Salvation” part that sinks us!
Claiming to be of Christ does not guarantee that the person is in Christ (“why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?”)
Maran atha!
Angel
O
OldProf
Guest
Thanks for you gracious welcome, jcrichton! I confess, I do approach things as a “scholar” to include biblical scholarship, though I am only on record as being educated in electrical engineering. But, I did a 180 degree turn in 1993 when I started to study the Bible (a challenge from a fellow faculty member where I was teaching). It was then that God - he deserves all the credit - opened the Scriptures for me, and my library went from two Bibles and one Christian book on marriage, to now where I have about 3000 Bibles and books on theology, apologetics, and church history (from agnostic with no interest in the Bible or time for a god to full blown Christian apologist and Bible defender). So, yes, scholar mode!I’m pedestrian and skeptical of scholars…
That said, welcome to the forum!
I suggest that you do not pile up responses on one single post since it tends to confuse and prolong the texting, reading, and the length of the response…
The rest of your post would bring up a lot of other issues. It would be much more enjoyable to be sitting with you over coffee and explore them.
However, my post provided an argument that a Christian will never lose their salvation as taught by Jesus. The Christian can have an assurance about their salvation since it is secure and they will never perish, however, that is not the case in RC Church regarding mortal sins.
I’m wondering if I have made a mistake in the interpretation of John 9:35 to John 10:30. If I have, then I can learn from the proper interpretation.
Please let me know.
Sincerely, OldProf
A
Abu
Guest
False. You already have the testimony of Pope St Clement, the third successor of St Peter.
Picking and choosing for private interpretation against Christ helps no one.
In post #44 you’ve seen already: “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
The Sacred Scripture, as the inspired Word of God is given to us only through the Catholic Church, one with the Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium mandated by Christ Himself. Christ never wrote anything.
The failure to understand Christ, His Church, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium is highlighted in Sacred Scripture, and solved only by Christ’s Catholic Church:
St Paul’s epistles have “some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” [2Pet 3:16]
“…no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man but, but holy men of God spoken as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” [2Pet 1: 20-21].
The Ethiopian eunuch reading Isaiah was asked by Philip who had been moved by the Holy Spirit – “Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, ‘How can I unless some man show me?’ And he asked Philip to come and sit with him.” [Acts 8:30-31].
That third successor of St Peter, St Clement, wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1). This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (2 Thess 2:15).
“Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.” (2 Tim 1:13-14). Again St Paul writes: “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2).
In Colossians 2: 4-23, St Paul calls on his flock to follow Christ “as you were taught” and warns against merely “human precepts and teachings.”
1 Cor 1:10: I urge you brothers, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jn 4:6).
“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14). Further, “For there will come a time when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but having itching ears, will heap up to themselves teachers according to their lusts. And they will turn away their hearing from the truth and turn aside rather to fables.” (2 Tim 4:3).
Thus those who persist in their own interpretations against the infallible teaching of Christ’s Church don’t have a leg to stand on.
To whom else did Jesus give that supreme authority? The NT was written within a few decades of Christ’s death by Catholics and His Church told us what books form the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God and carefully copied them for 1500 years so they would be available for all. The books were declared, no more no less, by the Church, and no one else has any authority to add or subtract any.
O
OldProf
Guest
Well, it’s true. Do you need me to demonstrate that? I’ll have to go dust off a few books.
What we have in common are the Scriptures. I believe the RCC is in error when it teaches that a Christian can commit a mortal sin, die, and go to hell. And I believe we can have an assurance of salvation because Jesus teaches that his sheep will never perish. Will you deal with John 9:35 to John 10:30 as given in my original post which agrees with what I’ve just said, or will you continue to ignore that? Look, you are doing something I also find disappointing with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons - their “authority” is right regardless of what the Scriptures clearly teach. Please correct my understanding of John 9:35 to John 10:30, since I must be wrong if true sheep, true Christians, can perish.
A former Dean of Theology at a Catholic University, a RC Priest, frankly told me that my interpretation of this Scripture is accurate. This was a mystery to him and he was quite comfortable with that. I’ve come to this website to correct my understanding if needed, and the first thing I’ve responded to is the issue of assurance of salvation.
You are not dealing with the Scriptures here, and that is very important - at least to me.
Regards, OldProf
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