Assurance of Salvation

[Abu]

No one is “saved” until they have responded to the redemption of Jesus by cooperating with Him to supply what was lacking in His afflictions – when we walk in good works (Eph 2:10). As James teaches: “Faith without works is dead.” (See Jam 2:14-26).

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience.

Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part. If anyone was to be saved your way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

His Church teaches, and emphasises in Her Sacred Scriptures that to live as Christ wants we must love and obey:
“Love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Rom 13:10). The new commandment is: “Love one another as I have loved you.” (Jn 13: 34-35). If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (Jn 14:15). “If a man loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him and we will come to him and make Our home with him.” (Jn 14:21).
“He became the source of salvation to all who obey Him.” (Heb 5:9). “It is not those who say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Mt 7:21).
When asked “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

St Paul (Acts 20:17-36), in which he admonishes the elders of the Church at Ephesus: “So I solemnly declare to you this very day: if any of you should be lost, I am not responsible. For I have not held back from announcing to you the whole purpose of God. Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which He made His own through the death of His own Son. I know that after I leave, fierce wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. The time will come when some men from your own group will tell lies to lead the believers away after them. Watch, then, and remember that with many tears, day and night, I taught every one of you for three years.”

“Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.”
(Phil 2:12).

OldProf #60
You are not dealing with the Scriptures here, and that is very important - at least to me

.It is not enough to be “dealing with the Scriptures” – the only interpreter is Christ’s Church which He founded for us with His authority, and who gave us the Scriptures. Dissenters cannot speak for Christ and His Church. That is the most important truth in knowing what Christ taught.

 

[fhansen]

…quite the contrary… most personal revelations that I’ve heard of either maintain a dependency on Christ (hence no secured Salvation) or is about the person’s own feelings of frailty and spiritual failure (which I believe is due to the individual feeling inadequate in his/her surrender to Christ).

Maran atha!

Angel

I’m not sure what you mean here. The private revelations I’m speaking of are unimaginably profound and involve locutions or some such communication where it’s directly revealed to the person their eternal fate

 

[JRKH]

(SNIP)…
However, my post provided an argument that a Christian will never lose their salvation as taught by Jesus. The Christian can have an assurance about their salvation since it is secure and they will never perish, however, that is not the case in RC Church regarding mortal sins.

I’m wondering if I have made a mistake in the interpretation of John 9:35 to John 10:30. If I have, then I can learn from the proper interpretation.

Please let me know.

Sincerely, OldProf

In regards to what I Bolded above…How does one define “Christian” here? This is important in order to understand the assurance of salvation issue.

Certainly a Christian - a believer in Christ - one who has been baptized in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - and seeks to Live the life of a Christian - to Love God and neighbor - certainly such a person can have assurance of salvation…
Thus your statement above is certainly true.

But - (there’s always a but…)

Perhaps the more correct and crucial issue is this…Can a person lose their salvation? In other words, can a Christian stop being a Christian?

It seems as though he can as illustrated in the parable of the sower and seed. Of the four landing sites given by Jesus two, the rocks and the thorns, illustrate people who embrace the word, become Christian, but do not persevere.

Certainly we all see in our own lives how some who claim to be Christian do not act like a Christian…Jesus in Mt 25:31-46 - the great passage on the judgement condemns many who claim to be Christian but were, in fact, not.
So - What are we to say constitutes a Christian for the purpose of an “assurance of salvation”.

In short, it’s easy to say that a Christian is assured of salvation - but this holds true only so long as they remain Christian. (in Truth and not just in name)

Peace
James

 

[fhansen]

fhansen, I certainly do not want to ignore other verses or take things out of context. And I don’t think I did here, but instead provided the complete context - which demonstrates that Christians, Jesus’ sheep, will never perish. The Roman Catholic Church does teach that a person can be in a state of grace, meaning that they are a Christian, yet they can commit a mortal sin and die and perish. You must think I am wrong about what Jesus teaches here. Why am I wrong about this Scripture?

Regards, OldProf

I’m sure you don’t want to ignore other verses or take things out of context. It’s very simple, though. When one verse or passage apparently conflicts with many others, or when several conflict with several others for that matter, the truth must still lie somewhere and so must be ascertained somehow-if we’re to find it at all. There are many such apparent contradictions in scripture, the many arguments I’ve encountered between non-Catholic Christians on other forums I’ve participated in attest to this fact. And this is why, ultimately, we may at times need to defer to the teachings of the the Church, which was established for this particular purpose of knowing and proclaiming the gospel, to clue us in on what Gods Word means to say. She was given the deposit of faith, which she holds in her heart, and which is backed up by the Tradition which is part of her lived experience-her history-from the beginnings of the faith.

But in this particular case, IMO, there isn’t much of a problem. There are simply so many verses/passages that indicate that a believer can lose salvation-or must continuously strive for it (Paul even stated that he had not yet attained the resurrection, but was striving for towards that goal, in Phil 3 :7-14 ), that it becomes obvious that salvation isn’t considered a done deal simply because one has come to believe. Will Jesus lose any the Father has chosen? No, of course not. Can we know, with 100% certainty, that we are one of those? No, we can’t.

And yet we can have an assurance, which is based on, 1) hearing the Shepard’s voice, coming to believe, and following Him 2) experiencing the grace of subsequent growth in that virtue of faith along with the virtues of hope and love, and 3) observing various resulting fruits as expressed in our lives. But it ain’t over till the fat lady sings, as the old movie line put it, God will be the ultimate judge, and every Christian, if they’re honest, has at least some degree of anticipation, no matter how small, as to his eternal destiny, if for no other reason than by awareness of our human weaknesses and limitations. The vision faith gives us is still quite dim on this side of eternity-that’s why we need this gift to begin with- and in any case humility alone calls for some degree of trepidation, some reason to continue ‘working out our salvation in fear and trembling’, as scripture puts it.

 

[Qoeleth]

St. John of the Cross said this: “Always remember that your damnation is more assured than your salvation.”

There is no assurance of salvation…

 

[jcrichton]

…It was then that God - he deserves all the credit - opened the Scriptures for me, and my library went from two Bibles and one Christian book on marriage, to now where I have about 3000 Bibles and books on theology, apologetics, and church history (from agnostic with no interest in the Bible or time for a god to full blown Christian apologist and Bible defender). So, yes, scholar mode!

I do understand your passion for Sacred Scripture; I too have a yearning to immerse myself in God’s Word and share Christ Jesus with others… though, I must admit, I’m not the most generous and humble steward!

However, my post provided an argument that a Christian will never lose their salvation as taught by Jesus. The Christian can have an assurance about their salvation since it is secure and they will never perish, however, that is not the case in RC Church regarding mortal sins.

…perhaps the problem lies not so much with what we understand from Scriptures as much as how our distinct bodies express these understandings… it could be as simple as the early schism (Easter - Western) where a simple definition torn the unity of the Church… The Church maintains that only in Jesus is there Salvation (since the Church is the Body of Christ it stands to reason that outside of the Church there’s no Salvation); while Salvation is Granted Free and Unmerited there’s nothing we can do to Save ourselves… yet, this does not implicitly or explicitly means that there exists blanket Salvation!

Any person unwilling to humbly submit to God has not the privilege of claiming Salvation.

A Believer cannot willfully engage in sin (the rejection of God’s Authority) and expect to be received into the Kingdom. A Christian can neither claim to be free of sin nor claim automatic forgiveness of sin on the merit that Christ died once and for all for all sin… it is arrogant to claim to hold God hostage by quoting Scriptures back to Him all the while we engage in wanton disregard of His Authority.

…and while it seems that the Church has created a ranking scale of sins… I urge you to see Scriptures for the original model (Mt 12:30-32; Jn 19:10-12; 1 Co 6:16-18); in her wisdom, the Church has always attempted to bring knowledge to all through Doctrine and theological Teachings–man does not always make the connection.

I’m wondering if I have made a mistake in the interpretation of John 9:35 to John 10:30. If I have, then I can learn from the proper interpretation.

Please let me know.

Sincerely, OldProf

I don’t think that it is more a mistake than a huge dose of possitivism… I remember one fellow some years back carrying this heavy load around to the point of beginning to separate himself from Yahweh God because he could not understand why He let so many die in the Old Testament accounts of Israel’s trek to Jerusalem… and then he compiled that gruesome picture with that depicted in the book of Apocalypse (Revelation)–I assured him that on both accounts God had provided for Salvation in Christ–each individual person has the power to chose Life or death… yeah, even those who died prior to Christ’s Incarnation, death, and Resurrection!

His concern for others almost cost him his own Salvation as his anger towards God grew, further distancing him form Christ’s Gift.

St. John 9:35-41 does not demonstrate that Christians do not lose Salvation or that they are guaranteed Salvation; rather, it demonstrates that Christ is God (worshipped Him) and our humble obedience and adherence to Him Grants us Salvation… note that the man in question did not just acknowledge that Jesus did something good but he (as Abraham in the presence of Melchizedek) acknowledged that Jesus merited Worship!

St. John 10:1-30… this is charged! …it is one of those passages where so much is going on it hurts!

Firstly, Jesus defines a very special and absolute relationship between Him and His Followers (between God and man); Jesus is the Rightful and Authentic God of Israel (and by extension of the Gentiles as well); though hidden, through the Holy Spirit Jesus is able to let Himself be Known to His Followers and they are Known to Him; it is Jesus who has man’s best intention in Mind and at Heart. (vv 1-10)

Secondly, Jesus introduces a fantastic Relationship: He is the Ultimate protector of His Followers… He Gives His Life for us! …but not only that… His Relationship with the Father is extended to both Israel and Gentiles as the two peoples become One in Christ. (vv 11-16)

…all of a sudden Jesus sneaks it in again: He, Jesus Christ, is God and the division prophesied from of old and new becomes palpable! (vv 17-27)

Finally, Jesus restates His special Relationship with His Followers… this time He elevates it to the max: He Gives Eternal Life! Because of His Relationship with the Father (the Father and I Are ONE) His Followers will never be Lost or Taken from God’s Possession; yet, as with Israel, Believers possess the ability to renounce God and reject Jesus’ Authority. (vv 27-30)

Salvation, my friend, is Eternal (existed since before Creation, as attested to by St. Paul) and it is Granted Free (there’s nothing we can offer to God as exchange for Eternal Life), but it is not forced upon us by the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I’m not sure what you mean here. The private revelations I’m speaking of are unimaginably profound and involve locutions or some such communication where it’s directly revealed to the person their eternal fate

I’ve never heard of any who has expressed that “I am Saved” or “Christ has assured me Salvation.”

True I am not versed in much else then Scriptures so I cannot account for every claim of personal revelation… the only ones that I am aware of always demonstrate a dependency on fellowship with Christ and not on some special merit granted the person in question.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Will Jesus lose any the Father has chosen? No, of course not. Can we know, with 100% certainty, that we are one of those? No, we can’t.

…yet, this does not explicitly or implicitly demonstrate that there’s assurance of Salvation… only that God will not relinquish His Possession to others… anyone can choose not to accept God’s Salvation; even those who are chosen by God can reject God–in St. John 6 Jesus does not forbid the Eleven from leaving… they, goaded by Kephas, determine to stay with Jesus.

The only assurance of Salvation is that God has extended us the privilege of Becoming His and thusly gain Eternal Life.

Lucifer had it all (I’m on top to the Universe Ma…) but he chose himself rather than God… and millions followed… and many many millions more, attested to by human history and Apocalypse (I suspect that more than just a few will be reverts from Christ).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fhansen]

I’ve never heard of any who has expressed that “I am Saved” or “Christ has assured me Salvation.”

True I am not versed in much else then Scriptures so I cannot account for every claim of personal revelation… the only ones that I am aware of always demonstrate a dependency on fellowship with Christ and not on some special merit granted the person in question.

Maran atha!

Angel

As I said, Trent/the CC allows for such private revelation. They are completely different in quality and kind than what a Protestant means when he says “I am Saved” or “Christ has assured me Salvation.” They are rare, and most likely rarely spoken of, IMO, and, like all other graces, are granted I’m sure for Gods’ purposes of advancing His kingdom in some way or another.

 

[may_they_be_one]

Scripture possesses everything we need to understand Gods’ plan of salvation, so long as we take the whole thing in context. If we take one part of the bible that apparently supports the idea that a believer can know with certainty they’re saved, and ignore the myriad of verses and parables that admonish believers to strive, persevere, invest their talents, keep oil in their lamps, be vigilant, be holy, be perfect, refrain from sin, continue to live in the Spirit, do good, feed the poor, clothe the naked, express their faith in love, generally with the loss of eternal life if they don’t, then we may well be led astray. There’d be no reason for such admonitions if there was no chance of a believer losing their salvation. And, if it’s possible to lose it, then we have no way to know with 100% certainty who will persevere till the end, who God will judge to be a sheep vs a goat, who Christ counts as His own. Only He can know with that degree of certainty. Anyway, this is one more reason why the Church, as the “pillar and foundation of truth”, is so necessary to give us correct understanding of the gospel-and why Trent warns against “vain confidence” regarding ones salvation.

Another question to ask, which is at the heart of the New Covenant is:

What then is the “Good” News?

With no assurance, and only a cautious hope of eternal life (as long as we meet the “state of grace” requirements), I find it very difficult to share with non-believing people the “Good” News…

Could it be that the “living, active” Word of God is just that: alive and dynamic–always moving to fit the message to the current state of a sinner’s heart and mind, finding where they’re at in their present moment.

A new believer who lived their life as a prostitute or thief finds hope in many chapters of the Gospel of John.

Wouldn’t sharing certain “Good News” chapters–and not others–with such a person, be the most charitable thing to do? Then as they believe the truly “Good” News, know they can be forgiven and “saved” from their sinful state, and start changing their sinful behaviors & begin to mature and receive the sacraments, the rest of the truth will find fertile ground to grow… like the idea that they’d “better be careful” so as not to loose their salvation.

A good example of the Word of God speaking seemingly different gospels (or salvation promises) is in Jesus’ final recorded words in the Gospels of Mark and Luke:

St.Mark 16:16: “Tell the good news to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be judged guilty.”

St. Luke 24:47-8 “You must tell people to change their hearts and lives. If they do this, their sins will be forgiven.”

I see this as an indication that the Scriptures are meant to be applied in a way that will be most effective in the mind/heart of the individual hearer. I applaud “evangelical” Protestants for making the effort to share the words Christ commanded us to share with unbelievers. I applaud Catholics for their concern to present the rest of the story to those who’ve already heard and believed the Good News.

The work of both parties is essential for the salvation of more souls. May they be one.

 

[fhansen]

Another question to ask, which is at the heart of the New Covenant is:

What then is the “Good” News?

With no assurance, and only a cautious hope of eternal life (as long as we meet the “state of grace” requirements), I find it very difficult to share with non-believing people the “Good” News…

Could it be that the “living, active” Word of God is just that: alive and dynamic–always moving to fit the message to the current state of a sinner’s heart and mind, finding where they’re at in their present moment.

A new believer who lived their life as a prostitute or thief finds hope in many chapters of the Gospel of John.

Wouldn’t sharing certain “Good News” chapters–and not others–with such a person, be the most charitable thing to do? Then as they believe the truly “Good” News, know they can be forgiven and “saved” from their sinful state, and start changing their sinful behaviors & begin to mature and receive the sacraments, the rest of the truth will find fertile ground to grow… like the idea that they’d “better be careful” so as not to loose their salvation.

A good example of the Word of God speaking seemingly different gospels (or salvation promises) is in Jesus’ final recorded words in the Gospels of Mark and Luke:

St.Mark 16:16: “Tell the good news to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be judged guilty.”

St. Luke 24:47-8 “You must tell people to change their hearts and lives. If they do this, their sins will be forgiven.”

I see this as an indication that the Scriptures are meant to be applied in a way that will be most effective in the mind/heart of the individual hearer. I applaud “evangelical” Protestants for making the effort to share the words Christ commanded us to share with unbelievers. I applaud Catholics for their concern to present the rest of the story to those who’ve already heard and believed the Good News.

The work of both parties is essential for the salvation of more souls. May they be one.

It’s not about having no assurance-it’s about acknowledging our weaknesses and Gods’ sovereignty. We know He’s a just and merciful God, so we can know that, provided we do His will to the best extent we can according to the knowledge and capabilities we have, He’ll save us. The good news that the Atonement demonstrates and proves is that: God exists, God is trustworthy and good, and God loves humankind with a boundless, unconditional love. Forgiveness and reconciliation is fully offered. Now we must do our part and Jesus’ yoke is easy and His burden is light. But we still must do it-and continue to-and so the occasional admonishments for perseverance make sense. We know God is good, we know He’s not even angry at man, although He hates evil, but man was the source of enmity and mistrust to begin with, and undeservedly so. “They hated me without reason”, Jesus said, quoting OT scripture referring to mans’ attitude towards God. The Good News is that God wants restored relationship with man, to be our God again as per the New Covenant prophesy in Jer 31, and He wants to help us be the beings He created us to be (placing His laws on our hearts and writing them in our minds) so we can live eternally with Him in inexhaustible happiness. We just need to cooperate.

 

[OldProf]

In regards to what I Bolded above…How does one define “Christian” here? This is important in order to understand the assurance of salvation issue.

Certainly a Christian - a believer in Christ - one who has been baptized in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - and seeks to Live the life of a Christian - to Love God and neighbor - certainly such a person can have assurance of salvation…
Thus your statement above is certainly true.

But - (there’s always a but…)

Perhaps the more correct and crucial issue is this…Can a person lose their salvation? In other words, can a Christian stop being a Christian?

It seems as though he can as illustrated in the parable of the sower and seed. Of the four landing sites given by Jesus two, the rocks and the thorns, illustrate people who embrace the word, become Christian, but do not persevere.

Certainly we all see in our own lives how some who claim to be Christian do not act like a Christian…Jesus in Mt 25:31-46 - the great passage on the judgement condemns many who claim to be Christian but were, in fact, not.
So - What are we to say constitutes a Christian for the purpose of an “assurance of salvation”.

In short, it’s easy to say that a Christian is assured of salvation - but this holds true only so long as they remain Christian. (in Truth and not just in name)

Peace
James

Thank-you for these thoughts, James, and they center around the “professing Christian” (not one of Jesus’ sheep, but who claim Jesus as Lord) and the “Christian” (a true sheep of Jesus which cannot be lost because Jesus is the Good Shepherd).

According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

If list 1 is true, but not list 2, then I cannot tell if that person is a professing Christian, or if they are Christian, but such a babe in Christ that they haven’t matured to list 2.

If list 2 is true, then list 1 will also be true. List 2 “fruits” will persevere in the Christian.

I don’t have any trust in my own “good works” that fall under the category of Eph 2:10. God prepared me for those, and it is not my doing my part or my cooperating with God as I work out my salvation. Christians do good works - not to secure salvation, but because of their salvation. “Professing Christians” can leave the faith because they were never known by Jesus (Matt 7:21-23) nor ever one of His sheep (1 John 2:19). They were not born of God (John 1:13) or born again (John 3:3) or a new creation (2 Cor 5:17).

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of his/her salvation. Will Jesus, the Good Shepherd (John 9:35-10:30), lose any sheep? No. Will God who began a good work in us (Php 1:6) quit on us? No, He will complete it. Will someone, chosen by God, ever actually be lost (John 6:37-40)? No. Can we have peace with God (Rom 5:1) through our Christian faith? Yes. Seems like the Christian can have an assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13 - a wonderful letter written to address that very issue - the themes in 1 John are happiness, holiness, and security).

A Christian has the Son and has eternal life (John 5:24 and 1 John 5:12). It does seem that this teaches we have “eternal life,” and not just “the possibility of eternal life if you can avoid committing a mortal sin and die in a state of grace.”

Having “mortal sin” hanging over our heads robs us of our peace with God and of any assurance of salvation. If you review the verses above, with proper context, then how can we not have an assurance that we have salvation, that we have eternal life?

Secure in Christ, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

I do understand your passion for Sacred Scripture; I too have a yearning to immerse myself in God’s Word and share Christ Jesus with others… though, I must admit, I’m not the most generous and humble steward!

…

St. John 9:35-41 does not demonstrate that Christians do not lose Salvation or that they are guaranteed Salvation; rather, it demonstrates that Christ is God (worshipped Him) and our humble obedience and adherence to Him Grants us Salvation… note that the man in question did not just acknowledge that Jesus did something good but he (as Abraham in the presence of Melchizedek) acknowledged that Jesus merited Worship!

St. John 10:1-30… this is charged! …it is one of those passages where so much is going on it hurts!

Firstly, Jesus defines a very special and absolute relationship between Him and His Followers (between God and man); Jesus is the Rightful and Authentic God of Israel (and by extension of the Gentiles as well); though hidden, through the Holy Spirit Jesus is able to let Himself be Known to His Followers and they are Known to Him; it is Jesus who has man’s best intention in Mind and at Heart. (vv 1-10)

Secondly, Jesus introduces a fantastic Relationship: He is the Ultimate protector of His Followers… He Gives His Life for us! …but not only that… His Relationship with the Father is extended to both Israel and Gentiles as the two peoples become One in Christ. (vv 11-16)

…all of a sudden Jesus sneaks it in again: He, Jesus Christ, is God and the division prophesied from of old and new becomes palpable! (vv 17-27)

Finally, Jesus restates His special Relationship with His Followers… this time He elevates it to the max: He Gives Eternal Life! Because of His Relationship with the Father (the Father and I Are ONE) His Followers will never be Lost or Taken from God’s Possession; yet, as with Israel, Believers possess the ability to renounce God and reject Jesus’ Authority. (vv 27-30)

Salvation, my friend, is Eternal (existed since before Creation, as attested to by St. Paul) and it is Granted Free (there’s nothing we can offer to God as exchange for Eternal Life), but it is not forced upon us by the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel

Thank-you, Angel, for looking into these Scriptures . And I certainly agree, this is good stuff! You indicate that we must do something since salvation “is not forced upon us by the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit.” Considering we a “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1-9) according to Paul, and he reiterates our condition in Rom 3:9-28 where we have absolutely no room to boast, and specifically identifies righteous works as no means for salvation (Titus 3:5), it seems to me I have zero part in my own salvation. Dead in sins - dead men cannot do anything - no desire for God as an unregenerate sinner, and no room to boast about the great (righteous?) decision I made to become a Christian.

It seems to me that regeneration, as an act of God, is needed before I can make that righteous decision to be a Christian. And if God regenerates me, I will make that decision, because God has given me to Jesus (John 6:37-40), and I’m now one of His sheep. With that, I can have assurance because it is God who keeps me.

Is that unreasonable?

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

Another question to ask, which is at the heart of the New Covenant is:

What then is the “Good” News?

With no assurance, and only a cautious hope of eternal life (as long as we meet the “state of grace” requirements), I find it very difficult to share with non-believing people the “Good” News…

Could it be that the “living, active” Word of God is just that: alive and dynamic–always moving to fit the message to the current state of a sinner’s heart and mind, finding where they’re at in their present moment.

A new believer who lived their life as a prostitute or thief finds hope in many chapters of the Gospel of John.

Wouldn’t sharing certain “Good News” chapters–and not others–with such a person, be the most charitable thing to do? Then as they believe the truly “Good” News, know they can be forgiven and “saved” from their sinful state, and start changing their sinful behaviors & begin to mature and receive the sacraments, the rest of the truth will find fertile ground to grow… like the idea that they’d “better be careful” so as not to loose their salvation.

A good example of the Word of God speaking seemingly different gospels (or salvation promises) is in Jesus’ final recorded words in the Gospels of Mark and Luke:

St.Mark 16:16: “Tell the good news to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be judged guilty.”

St. Luke 24:47-8 “You must tell people to change their hearts and lives. If they do this, their sins will be forgiven.”

I see this as an indication that the Scriptures are meant to be applied in a way that will be most effective in the mind/heart of the individual hearer. I applaud “evangelical” Protestants for making the effort to share the words Christ commanded us to share with unbelievers. I applaud Catholics for their concern to present the rest of the story to those who’ve already heard and believed the Good News.

The work of both parties is essential for the salvation of more souls. May they be one.

…firstly, you have the last part wrong… the Church has been there and done that then the Protestants have moved in claiming this and that other thing…

…we may have different takes on how to go about things but Christ did not offer a free buffet so that we can accommodate our individual pallets… ‘Why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do what I say?’ or ‘If you love one another the world will believe that you are my disciples.’ (paraphrased) …these were not empty gestures.

Jesus was very succinct about what He Wants:

May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. (St. John 17:21)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Thank-you for these thoughts, James, and they center around the “professing Christian” (not one of Jesus’ sheep, but who claim Jesus as Lord) and the “Christian” (a true sheep of Jesus which cannot be lost because Jesus is the Good Shepherd).

According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

If list 1 is true, but not list 2, then I cannot tell if that person is a professing Christian, or if they are Christian, but such a babe in Christ that they haven’t matured to list 2.

If list 2 is true, then list 1 will also be true. List 2 “fruits” will persevere in the Christian.

I don’t have any trust in my own “good works” that fall under the category of Eph 2:10. God prepared me for those, and it is not my doing my part or my cooperating with God as I work out my salvation. Christians do good works - not to secure salvation, but because of their salvation. “Professing Christians” can leave the faith because they were never known by Jesus (Matt 7:21-23) nor ever one of His sheep (1 John 2:19). They were not born of God (John 1:13) or born again (John 3:3) or a new creation (2 Cor 5:17).

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of his/her salvation. Will Jesus, the Good Shepherd (John 9:35-10:30), lose any sheep? No. Will God who began a good work in us (Php 1:6) quit on us? No, He will complete it. Will someone, chosen by God, ever actually be lost (John 6:37-40)? No. Can we have peace with God (Rom 5:1) through our Christian faith? Yes. Seems like the Christian can have an assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13 - a wonderful letter written to address that very issue - the themes in 1 John are happiness, holiness, and security).

A Christian has the Son and has eternal life (John 5:24 and 1 John 5:12). It does seem that this teaches we have “eternal life,” and not just “the possibility of eternal life if you can avoid committing a mortal sin and die in a state of grace.”

Having “mortal sin” hanging over our heads robs us of our peace with God and of any assurance of salvation. If you review the verses above, with proper context, then how can we not have an assurance that we have salvation, that we have eternal life?

Secure in Christ, OldProf

…actually, what you seem to resent is that the Church reminds you that you are a sinner and that your sin keeps you from God’s Grace:

14 Everyone is put to the test by being attracted and seduced by that person’s own wrong desire. 15 Then the desire conceives and gives birth to sin, and when sin reaches full growth, it gives birth to death. (St. James 1:14-15)

…I find that pride and self assurance are two great pitfalls that many Christian are slow to master!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Thank-you, Angel, for looking into these Scriptures . And I certainly agree, this is good stuff! You indicate that we must do something since salvation “is not forced upon us by the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit.” Considering we a “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1-9) according to Paul, and he reiterates our condition in Rom 3:9-28 where we have absolutely no room to boast, and specifically identifies righteous works as no means for salvation (Titus 3:5), it seems to me I have zero part in my own salvation. Dead in sins - dead men cannot do anything - no desire for God as an unregenerate sinner, and no room to boast about the great (righteous?) decision I made to become a Christian.

It seems to me that regeneration, as an act of God, is needed before I can make that righteous decision to be a Christian. And if God regenerates me, I will make that decision, because God has given me to Jesus (John 6:37-40), and I’m now one of His sheep. With that, I can have assurance because it is God who keeps me.

Is that unreasonable?

Sincerely, OldProf

No, it is not unreasonable to know you are a sinner and, as the rest of us, your Salvation depends fully on God’s Mercy and Grace; where it is unreasonable is when you believe that your Salvation is granted even against your own will (cannot be lost)… Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life… Salvation is not some state of Eternal Bliss (that’s something called nirvana) where all we have to do is… well… partake of that cosmic bliss… Jesus has quite a different take on Salvation:

4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. (St. John 15:4-6)

…you see, Jesus requires that those who claim to be of His Fold remain (abide) in Him… otherwise we simply become more of those who call “Lord, Lord…” but do not do as He Says!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

I’m sure you don’t want to ignore other verses or take things out of context. It’s very simple, though. When one verse or passage apparently conflicts with many others, or when several conflict with several others for that matter, the truth must still lie somewhere and so must be ascertained somehow-if we’re to find it at all. There are many such apparent contradictions in scripture, the many arguments I’ve encountered between non-Catholic Christians on other forums I’ve participated in attest to this fact. And this is why, ultimately, we may at times need to defer to the teachings of the the Church, which was established for this particular purpose of knowing and proclaiming the gospel, to clue us in on what Gods Word means to say. She was given the deposit of faith, which she holds in her heart, and which is backed up by the Tradition which is part of her lived experience-her history-from the beginnings of the faith.

But in this particular case, IMO, there isn’t much of a problem. There are simply so many verses/passages that indicate that a believer can lose salvation-or must continuously strive for it (Paul even stated that he had not yet attained the resurrection, but was striving for towards that goal, in Phil 3 :7-14 ), that it becomes obvious that salvation isn’t considered a done deal simply because one has come to believe. Will Jesus lose any the Father has chosen? No, of course not. Can we know, with 100% certainty, that we are one of those? No, we can’t.

And yet we can have an assurance, which is based on, 1) hearing the Shepard’s voice, coming to believe, and following Him 2) experiencing the grace of subsequent growth in that virtue of faith along with the virtues of hope and love, and 3) observing various resulting fruits as expressed in our lives. But it ain’t over till the fat lady sings, as the old movie line put it, God will be the ultimate judge, and every Christian, if they’re honest, has at least some degree of anticipation, no matter how small, as to his eternal destiny, if for no other reason than by awareness of our human weaknesses and limitations. The vision faith gives us is still quite dim on this side of eternity-that’s why we need this gift to begin with- and in any case humility alone calls for some degree of trepidation, some reason to continue ‘working out our salvation in fear and trembling’, as scripture puts it.

fhansen, I’ve responded to a few others and you might be interested in my “logic” on those. You mention your experience on other forums - I don’t do this much - the forums thing like this. Mostly I engage face to face. I want to find the most knowledgeable people with regards to what they believe. For example, I invited some Mormon elders to my home a few years back, and they started me on their canned study program. It wasn’t long before they had me speaking with “the man” - a retired UVA professor with two earned doctorates in engineering - the perfect guy for me, they thought (these young men, elders about 19 years old, did not know their own scriptures and history very well, so I got referred to someone who did).

This really OldProf and I did get along well, but it was the very consistency of my scriptural analysis (Bible teaches only one God, proper understanding of the Trinity, no possibility of attaining godhood, proven contradictions in Mormon scriptures) that put him off and demonstrated that he would not be consistent with his own scriptures. And, in reality, Mormons can’t be consistent and remain Mormons.

I also worked with a Roman Catholic priest and theologian, and I studied (about an hour a week for 7 years) with several Jehovah’s Witness elders (long time elders, like 20-40 years in JW service). I’ve learned a lot of Christian doctrine and Christian history through that.

My point is, when you tell me about passage conflicts, as above, it is imperative (at least to me) to systematically reconcile the conflict. So, verses in the Bible that tell us Christians will never perish, that they can be assured of their salvation, etc - see my other posts today - cannot really conflict with other biblical doctrines. So, if Paul tells me in Phil 3:7-14 his desire for Christ and pressing toward the goal, I understand it in the context of the Christian who, secure in his salvation per Phil 1:6 earlier, has the new nature to desire to know God and do works to glorify God. No doubt Paul was active in Christian ministry and apologetics - that is clear from Scripture.

Furthermore, if verses tell us to be obedient, do good works, etc., and a form of punishment make be a consequence, it is likely related to chastisement, such as a father would chastise a beloved child when they are disobedient, but not to the point of death or expelling the child from the family. Thus, we would expect chastisement for our sins, but not the loss of salvation. And we would expect encouragement and instruction to do good works and have a good witness to the world for our righteous bearing and works. But that is not to gain salvation. I see biblical consistency in that.

So, the bottom line is, regarding assurance, it does seem we can have an assurance and sin will not cause us the loss of salvation, but will bring chastisement.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

No, it is not unreasonable to know you are a sinner and, as the rest of us, your Salvation depends fully on God’s Mercy and Grace; where it is unreasonable is when you believe that your Salvation is granted even against your own will (cannot be lost)… Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life… Salvation is not some state of Eternal Bliss (that’s something called nirvana) where all we have to do is… well… partake of that cosmic bliss… Jesus has quite a different take on Salvation:

…you see, Jesus requires that those who claim to be of His Fold remain (abide) in Him… otherwise we simply become more of those who call “Lord, Lord…” but do not do as He Says!

Maran atha!

Angel

Angel, a person’s will is not for God and not good per Rom 3:10-28. All Christian’s are saved against their unrighteous will. They cannot do anything to gain their salvation because they are dead in the sins per Eph 2:1-9. Do we need to correct Paul?

And a Christian will abide in Christ. If they don’t, they’re not a Christian and never ever were a Christian. Isn’t that the teaching of Scripture?

But, assurance - yes, Jesus’ sheep never perish. And that IS good news!

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[fhansen]

fhansen, I’ve responded to a few others and you might be interested in my “logic” on those. You mention your experience on other forums - I don’t do this much - the forums thing like this. Mostly I engage face to face. I want to find the most knowledgeable people with regards to what they believe. For example, I invited some Mormon elders to my home a few years back, and they started me on their canned study program. It wasn’t long before they had me speaking with “the man” - a retired UVA professor with two earned doctorates in engineering - the perfect guy for me, they thought (these young men, elders about 19 years old, did not know their own scriptures and history very well, so I got referred to someone who did).

This really OldProf and I did get along well, but it was the very consistency of my scriptural analysis (Bible teaches only one God, proper understanding of the Trinity, no possibility of attaining godhood, proven contradictions in Mormon scriptures) that put him off and demonstrated that he would not be consistent with his own scriptures. And, in reality, Mormons can’t be consistent and remain Mormons.

I also worked with a Roman Catholic priest and theologian, and I studied (about an hour a week for 7 years) with several Jehovah’s Witness elders (long time elders, like 20-40 years in JW service). I’ve learned a lot of Christian doctrine and Christian history through that.

My point is, when you tell me about passage conflicts, as above, it is imperative (at least to me) to systematically reconcile the conflict. So, verses in the Bible that tell us Christians will never perish, that they can be assured of their salvation, etc - see my other posts today - cannot really conflict with other biblical doctrines. So, if Paul tells me in Phil 3:7-14 his desire for Christ and pressing toward the goal, I understand it in the context of the Christian who, secure in his salvation per Phil 1:6 earlier, has the new nature to desire to know God and do works to glorify God. No doubt Paul was active in Christian ministry and apologetics - that is clear from Scripture.

Furthermore, if verses tell us to be obedient, do good works, etc., and a form of punishment make be a consequence, it is likely related to chastisement, such as a father would chastise a beloved child when they are disobedient, but not to the point of death or expelling the child from the family. Thus, we would expect chastisement for our sins, but not the loss of salvation. And we would expect encouragement and instruction to do good works and have a good witness to the world for our righteous bearing and works. But that is not to gain salvation. I see biblical consistency in that.

So, the bottom line is, regarding assurance, it does seem we can have an assurance and sin will not cause us the loss of salvation, but will bring chastisement.

Sincerely, OldProf

But the whole thing is still quite subjective, don’t you think? In another post you list some qualifications-some fruits-for determining ones’ status in terms of salvation. And of course it’s true; if one walks the walk they’re probably a true believer. Only God knows for sure, though, as they could be just putting on a show of holiness; the human heart can be quite deceitful, we can even fool ourselves. Anyway, God judges by the heart.

In any case when you say that ““Professing Christians” can leave the faith because they were never known by Jesus (Matt 7:21-23) nor ever one of His sheep (1 John 2:19). They were not born of God (John 1:13) or born again (John 3:3) or a new creation (2 Cor 5:17).”, we must consider that, except for outright deliberate deception, every person who “knows” they are saved is a professing Christian, isn’t planning on leaving the faith, and believes they’ll have final perseverance. Aren’t we putting the cart ahead of the horse then if we predict that, if a person sins, God will chastise them if that person is one of His own? That may well be true but it becomes a rather moot, academic point unless we can know for sure that such will happen to any particular person. If a person is disobedient, how do we know if he fits into the merely “professed Christian” status or, alternatively, into the wayward child of God who will be restored status? It seems to me we’re waffling a bit here; in the one case we know them by their fruits, that those who don’t meet the test probably aren’t saved, but in the other case we overlook the fruits and say they’re truly saved anyway, in spite of disobedience, predicting they’ll persevere in the end. I think prudence would indicate that, for our part, we simply do our best, trust in the goodness and mercy of God, and let Him be the final judge. We do have assurance, just not the 100% certainty that God alone has.

I’d consider the Parable of the Talents. Wasn’t the wicked and lazy servant a true servant of the master nonetheless, one the master knew? And yet he was cast out of the kingdom based on what he did-or failed to do-with what he was given.,

 

[JRKH]

Thank-you for these thoughts, James

You are welcome. I have found that many times we (fellow Christians) can get to talking past one another if we are not careful. I note this happening often in conversations like these. Your comments below are very good and I would like to offer a few thoughts on them. I ask your patience if my comments are somewhat disjointed…

they center around the “professing Christian” (not one of Jesus’ sheep, but who claim Jesus as Lord) and the “Christian” (a true sheep of Jesus which cannot be lost because Jesus is the Good Shepherd).

Indeed. I agree with this and am glad that you agree with my basic point. That there are those who “claim” to be Christian - and even believe they are saved, but in reality they are not.

According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

(Snip)

If list 1 is true, but not list 2, then I cannot tell if that person is a professing Christian, or if they are Christian, but such a babe in Christ that they haven’t matured to list 2.

If list 2 is true, then list 1 will also be true. List 2 “fruits” will persevere in the Christian.

This is very nicely put. We could possibly have an entire conversation just on this…
Not confrontational, but rather digging deeper into…

I don’t have any trust in my own “good works” that fall under the category of Eph 2:10. God prepared me for those, and it is not my doing my part or my cooperating with God as I work out my salvation. Christians do good works - not to secure salvation, but because of their salvation. “Professing Christians” can leave the faith because they were never known by Jesus (Matt 7:21-23) nor ever one of His sheep (1 John 2:19). They were not born of God (John 1:13) or born again (John 3:3) or a new creation (2 Cor 5:17).

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of his/her salvation.
(Snip)

I do not disagree with any of the evidences you present here. The concern, I believe, among Catholics over the matter is that these things are looking at the matter too much from “God’s viewpoint” and not enough from “Man’s viewpoint”. Indeed God knows who will be saved and He will not lose even one. However, from our viewpoint we cannot know with absolute, certainty (as in guaranteed) that we (you or I personally) which category we fall into - which “ground” we are that have received the seed.
Each person, while the seed of the word is growing, will be developing your list one and seeking to grow into your list two. During this time they believe that they are among the saved - and indeed, should they die during this period, we believe they ARE saved. However, if they do not die…and later they stop growing, and fall back into sin either leaving Christianity altogether or simply becoming, as you term it, “Professed Christians”, they will not be saved.
Jesus himself speaks to this idea in the parable of the sower but also in talking about the narrow door. In Luke 13:24 Jesus says, "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

To summarize this as briefly as possible From God’s viewpoint - He knows who are His and cannot lose them. From our viewpoint, we cannot know which category we will end up in.
Thus - from our limited view - we can be assured that, so long as we persevere, we can have confidence (assurance) in our salvation, but we should never presume upon it, for presumption is the first step toward sloth, and loss -

As Catholics, and as Christians, we do not wish to downplay assurance, we simply wish to warn against presumption.

A Christian has the Son and has eternal life (John 5:24 and 1 John 5:12). It does seem that this teaches we have “eternal life,” and not just “the possibility of eternal life if you can avoid committing a mortal sin and die in a state of grace.”

Having “mortal sin” hanging over our heads robs us of our peace with God and of any assurance of salvation. If you review the verses above, with proper context, then how can we not have an assurance that we have salvation, that we have eternal life?

I agree that the issue of mortal sin is a difficult one and one (IMHO) that is largely misunderstood by individuals both inside and outside of the Church. The result of this misunderstanding can be, as you say, a robbing of our peace and our assurance (trust) in God’s Mercy.
The problem as I see it is largely one of focus. The person who frets over “mortal sin” is like a man who is trying to get to the narrow gate while constantly looking over his shoulder, or even worse, while walking backwards. Since the road to the gate is narrow, what are the chances that such a one is going to fall into the ditch?
Those who focus too much on sin are those who are very immature in their faith.

They exist in that very early stage called by the great saints, “servile fear”, or fear of punishment. This is not an uncommon place to be and is mentioned in your first list (conviction of sin). They need to grow in their relationship with Christ so that Love drives out this fear. So that they face the light and can fairly run to the narrow gate.
The more fully we love, the more difficult it is to sin and especially to sin seriously.

Sorry if I’m rambling a bit…

Secure in Christ, OldProf

May God keep us both secure in His flock.

Peace
James