Assurance of Salvation

[fbl9]

Jerry-Jet, you seem to have your own definition for “invisible church” that is not known. See wikipedia article “invisible church” for the standard understanding. The invisible church only has the elect of God as members, and as such, it is fully alive. The visible church is the body of all people who follow Christ and call themselves “Christians.” Thus, it has a mixture of spiritually alive and spiritually dead people, but they all may act and talk like Christians. Remember, Clinton, Gore, and Obama have all indicated that they are Christians, even though they govern like atheists and have a strong following of atheist supporters.

Regards, OldProf

One must assume then that the elect are the visible church. Identified by the common beleif that they are saved forever amen.

St. Matthew 24;v24. yes duly noted “if possible” but given Jesus’ many warnings to be watchful and careful of ourselves. One would more inclined to beleive it is possible.

 

[jcrichton]

I would refer you to the parable of the seed.

…sorry, I don’t get the reference…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

One must assume then that the elect are the visible church. Identified by the common beleif that they are saved forever amen.

St. Matthew 24;v24. yes duly noted “if possible” but given Jesus’ many warnings to be watchful and careful of ourselves. One would more inclined to beleive it is possible.

fbl9, here (below) is what I remember of my conversation back in 1997 with a 87 year old Roman Catholic Priest who had been the Dean of Theology at an Ohio RC College (and he was a sharp thinking man). At that time I was getting ready to retire from the US Air Force and we had regular meeting dates each week in his office, though in some cases it was twice a week. I really liked him and he really liked my zeal for theology and to understand RC theology. He said this (I’m hoping I don’t misrepresent him, and the quote is not exact, just from my memory):

“Regarding the elect, these a people that God, who knows the future, knows will have sanctifying grace when they die, and since they are in a state of grace at death, they will almost certainly go to purgatory. But they have a heavenly destination for eternity!”

I don’t agree with this, because I believe the biblical teaching is that elect are called of God unto salvation. However, this impacts the “visible” vs “invisible” church discussion in this way. The priest believed the “visible” church, the RC church, had people who would go to heaven and to hell in the future. However, his view of the elect would agree with what I believe, and that is that only the elect go to heaven, and, from my view, they are in the “visible” AND “invisible” church.

Matt 24:24 is about the ability of the elect to not be fooled even by the most convincing deception - it’s not even possible. (There’s more good theology here, but I’ll leave it at that.)

We should not be surprised that Christ and Apostles implore us to be good Christians and bring glory to God. That’s what we should do! But the sin nature we all have keeps us from being as good as we could be once God has saved us. But He does work in the elect! Php 2:13

Regards, OldProf

 

[adrift]

Matt 24:24 is about the ability of the elect to not be fooled even by the most convincing deception - it’s not even possible. (There’s more good theology here, but I’ll leave it at that.)

We should not be surprised that Christ and Apostles implore us to be good Christians and bring glory to God. That’s what we should do! But the sin nature we all have keeps us from being as good as we could be once God has saved us. But He does work in the elect! Php 2:13

Regards, OldProf

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

I would not say that Matt 24:24 is about the elect not being able to be fooled. Rather it is a warning against false prophets. We don’t have to worry because we have the guidance of the Chruch which Jesus established so that we could have assurance of the truth. We are not saved until the race is run.

Hebrew 12

1 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Timothy 4:7

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith”

 

[OldProf]

I would not say that Matt 24:24 is about the elect not being able to be fooled. Rather it is a warning against false prophets. We don’t have to worry because we have the guidance of the Chruch which Jesus established so that we could have assurance of the truth. We are not saved until the race is run.

I would have to respectfully disagree. But, since this is off-topic, I’ll forgo a response. I really need to respond to a post you had earlier in this thread with regards to John 9 and 10. Maybe I can do that this evening.

Regards, OldProf

 

[houseofsaul]

Could someone simply state the Church’s stance about it…Does the Church believe the believer can know he is saved and going to heaven?

YES OR NO

I do not believe in OSAS…I believe one can fall, but I also believe one can Know he is saved and does not have to wait til Judgment to fully know.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47)

 

[adrift]

Could someone simply state the Church’s stance about it…Does the Church believe the believer can know he is saved and going to heaven?

YES OR NO

I do not believe in OSAS…I believe one can fall, but I also believe one can Know he is saved and does not have to wait til Judgment to fully know.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47)

Paul likens salvation to a race. You don’t win a race until you cross the finish line. What is that finish line? It is when you die, and face judgment.

 

[jcrichton]

Could someone simply state the Church’s stance about it…Does the Church believe the believer can know he is saved and going to heaven?

YES OR NO

I do not believe in OSAS…I believe one can fall, but I also believe one can Know he is saved and does not have to wait til Judgment to fully know.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47)

…No… Not… No…

Salvation is not a state of “safety” where we can acomplish “x” number of factors or claim “y” knowledge or achieve “enlightenment” to the point of “I am saved!”

Jesus speaks of the end of times (at Judgment) when people will be separated and many who would claim to Belong to Christ will meet with Christ Himself Who will expedite a curt rejection:

“I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers!” (St. Matthew 7:22-23)

This, of course, does not mean that all Believers will fall short of Salvation… but the emphasis from Scriptures is not that we are “Saved” or that we know that we are “Saved;” rather, the emphasis is that we humbly submit our will to God’s and that we rely on Christ rather than our intellect or wisdom or some formula found in Scriptures or some safety umbrella provided by the Church or well-meaning people:

9 'Then you will be handed over to be tortured and put to death; and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name. 10 And then many will fall away; people will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise; they will deceive many, 12 and with the increase of lawlessness, love in most people will grow cold;
13 but anyone who stands firm to the end will be saved.

42 'So stay awake, because you do not know the day when your master is coming. 43 You may be quite sure of this, that if the householder had known at what time of the night the burglar would come, he would have stayed awake and would not have allowed anyone to break through the wall of his house. 44 Therefore, you too must stand ready because the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 ‘Who, then, is the wise and trustworthy servant whom the master placed over his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed that servant if his master’s arrival finds him doing exactly that. 47 In truth I tell you, he will put him in charge of everything he owns. 48 But if the servant is dishonest and says to himself, “My master is taking his time,” 49 and sets about beating his fellow-servants and eating and drinking with drunkards, 50 his master will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know. 51 The master will cut him off and send him to the same fate as the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.’ (St. Matthew 24:9-13, 42-51)

…finally, Christ is not concerned with who knows what or what level of enlightenment (spirituality) a person has achieved… Christ’s concern is that we abide in Him (St. John 15:1-10) so that He may Abide in us:

7 Now, will not God see justice done to his elect if they keep calling to him day and night even though he still delays to help them? 8 I promise you, he will see justice done to them, and done speedily. But when the Son of man comes, will he find any faith on earth?’ (St. Luke 18:7-8)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

Could someone simply state the Church’s stance about it…Does the Church believe the believer can know he is saved and going to heaven?

YES OR NO

I do not believe in OSAS…I believe one can fall, but I also believe one can Know he is saved and does not have to wait til Judgment to fully know.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47)

NO. Since a mortal sin is always an option, you cannot know you are going to heaven. In addition, the sin of presumption can also be a mortal sin, so it is dangerous to assume you have the assurance of salvation. That is the RCC view.

Next you say you don’t believe on OSAS, but the question is, does the Bible teach OSAS? I say yes, it does.

Your John 6:47 quote is a good one. It actually means everlasting life - a life that goes on forever and ever. Eternal life. Everlasting life.

Since a believer has everlasting life, and since Jesus’ sheep never perish (John 10:27-29), and since all those chosen by the Father and given to Jesus (to become His sheep) shall be raised up on the last day (John 6:37-40), and, finally, since the Apostle John tells us we can know that we have everlasting life (1 John 5:13), then we can certainly have an assurance of salvation. Biblically speaking, that is.

Remember, we are NOT under condemnation (Romans 8:1), nothing in creation can separate us from God’s love (even ourselves per Romans 8:37-39), and since God is the author of salvation (Hebrews 12:2), what God begins, He completes (Philippians 1:6).

So, biblically, OSAS is taught and the Christian believer can have assurance of their salvation. Self-examination to make sure you are “in” Christ is important, and I’ll talk about that if you respond to this.

Regards, OldProf

 

[Jerry-Jet]

As long as we the living branches united to Christ who is the vine can be cut off–thrown into the fire–and burned–then forever OSAS will always be a lie.

 

[fbl9]

So, biblically, OSAS is taught
and the Christian believer can have assurance of their salvation. Self-examination to make sure you are “in” Christ is important, and I’ll talk about that if you respond to this.

Regards, OldProf

osas is biblically taught as long as one is willing to claim Chirst’s warnings and the warnings that the writers of the epistles wrote, are just a bunch of hot air.

Why? examine one’s self.
oh i sinned i guess i wasn’t saved in the first place but just thought i was. now what do i do, well i guess maybe i am never to be saved so might as well enjoy whatever i can.

or opps i sinned, oopps i did it again, opps did it again doesn’t matter all is forgiven.

yep osas is such a grand doctrine especially when the orginators don’t even agree what it means.

 

[OldProf]

As long as we the living branches united to Christ who is the vine can be cut off–thrown into the fire–and burned–then forever OSAS will always be a lie.

Jerry-Jet, I’ll assume you are referring to the illustration Jesus uses with his Disciples in John 15:1-17. The branches are true and false believers in Jesus. Do we know that there are “true” and “false” believers? Yes. Note that Jesus said:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23

Professing Christians that Jesus NEVER knew = false believers. Back to John 15. Those false believers will go to hell. They will never persevere. Repeat, they will NEVER persevere.

“If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” John 15:6

Now Jerry-Jet, you ignored my OSAS and assurance argument, and just gave a pot-shot refutation that doesn’t work. I’ve answered your “argument.” So how DO you deal with my earlier argument? I’m curious to see if you can deal with actual biblical statements. Can you?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

osas is biblically taught as long as one is willing to claim Chirst’s warnings and the warnings that the writers of the epistles wrote, are just a bunch of hot air.

Why? examine one’s self.
oh i sinned i guess i wasn’t saved in the first place but just thought i was. now what do i do, well i guess maybe i am never to be saved so might as well enjoy whatever i can.

or opps i sinned, oopps i did it again, opps did it again doesn’t matter all is forgiven.

yep osas is such a grand doctrine especially when the orginators don’t even agree what it means.

fbl9, there are good ways to reconcile the verses you speak of. But the argument I made earlier is much more difficult to put into a theology that one can become a true believer and sheep of Jesus and then still go to hell. So the argument I made - can you refute it? Doesn’t it make a strong case for OSAS and assurance? (This is a simple argument. It can actually become much stronger and more complex.)

BTW, we examine ourselves because Paul said, "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! " 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Here is a question for you (anyone). Does eternal life actually mean “the possibility of eternal life”? Jesus said,

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” John 5:24

Should we say, “Jesus, you should have said it differently to make sure that it really is only the possibility of eternal life. And you could have made it clearer that judgment will occur if a sin is committed that destroys all sanctifying grace in a person.” Isn’t that EXACTLY what the RCC teaches? Isn’t that what happens when a mortal sin is committed?

Isn’t there a disconnect here between the clear statements of the Bible and this doctrine of mortal sin?

Regards, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

Here is a question for you (anyone). Does eternal life actually mean “the possibility of eternal life”? Jesus said,

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” John 5:24

Should we say, “Jesus, you should have said it differently to make sure that it really is only the possibility of eternal life. And you could have made it clearer that judgment will occur if a sin is committed that destroys all sanctifying grace in a person.” Isn’t that EXACTLY what the RCC teaches? Isn’t that what happens when a mortal sin is committed?

Isn’t there a disconnect here between the clear statements of the Bible and this doctrine of mortal sin?

Regards, OldProf

…since you stated “(anyone),” I will attempt to enlighten you once more:

Jesus = Resurrection and Life

Since Jesus is Eternal: Salvation (Eternal Life with and in God) is Eternal.

Man = sinner (never the Just One)

Since man is a sinner (and God, that claims it, cannot lie) man is not “Saved” Eternally.

Only as long as man abides in Jesus (St. John 15:1-10; 3:18-20; 14:15; St. Matthew 12:30)… many will do wonderous things claiming Jesus as Savior and He will reject them (St. Matthew 7:21-27; 24:44-51; 25:31-46)–Salvation is Eternal but sinful man is not Eternally Saved because he claims to know Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[adrift]

Jerry-Jet, I’ll assume you are referring to the illustration Jesus uses with his Disciples in John 15:1-17. The branches are true and false believers in Jesus. Do we know that there are “true” and “false” believers? Yes. Note that Jesus said:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23

Professing Christians that Jesus NEVER knew = false believers. Back to John 15. Those false believers will go to hell. They will never persevere. Repeat, they will NEVER persevere.

“If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” John 15:6

Well then it comes back to how can you be assured of salvation if you might be a false believer? You will not know until the race is finished if you have salvation that is what Paul said.

 

[OldProf]

…since you stated “(anyone),” I will attempt to enlighten you once more:

Jesus = Resurrection and Life

Since Jesus is Eternal: Salvation (Eternal Life with and in God) is Eternal.

Man = sinner (never the Just One)

Since man is a sinner (and God, that claims it, cannot lie) man is not “Saved” Eternally.

Only as long as man abides in Jesus (St. John 15:1-10; 3:18-20; 14:15; St. Matthew 12:30)… many will do wonderous things claiming Jesus as Savior and He will reject them (St. Matthew 7:21-27; 24:44-51; 25:31-46)–Salvation is Eternal but sinful man is not Eternally Saved because he claims to know Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel

Angel, you have been with this thread from the beginning and a competent contributor. I appreciate and thank-you for that. But your argument here won’t work.

Eternal life is what the elect of God receive and they will go to heaven and they can have assurance of salvation in this life. There is NO works-righteousness system, and this is the unique aspect of biblical Christianity. Other religions require righteous works to earn salvation. We are saved by Grace. It is a free gift of God - a free gift of eternal life. We go from spiritually dead to spiritual life. I’ll try to add more to this tonight. Here are some verses which back up my statement.

“not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,” Titus 3:5

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

The elect of God do good works because we were prepared for them.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Well then it comes back to how can you be assured of salvation if you might be a false believer? You will not know until the race is finished if you have salvation that is what Paul said.

adrift, I posted this on 4 APR 12 in #72 of this thread, but here it is again.

According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

If list 1 is true, but not list 2, then I cannot tell if that person is a professing Christian, or if they are Christian, but such a babe in Christ that they haven’t matured to list 2.

If list 2 is true, then list 1 will also be true. List 2 “fruits” will persevere in the Christian.

I don’t have any trust in my own “good works” that fall under the category of Eph 2:10. God prepared me for those, and it is not my doing my part or my cooperating with God as I work out my salvation. Christians do good works - not to secure salvation, but because of their salvation. “Professing Christians” can leave the faith because they were never known by Jesus (Matt 7:21-23) nor ever one of His sheep (1 John 2:19). They were not born of God (John 1:13) or born again (John 3:3) or a new creation (2 Cor 5:17).

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of his/her salvation. Will Jesus, the Good Shepherd (John 9:35-10:30), lose any sheep? No. Will God who began a good work in us (Php 1:6) quit on us? No, He will complete it. Will someone, chosen by God, ever actually be lost (John 6:37-40)? No. Can we have peace with God (Rom 5:1) through our Christian faith? Yes. Seems like the Christian can have an assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13 - a wonderful letter written to address that very issue - the themes in 1 John are happiness, holiness, and security).

A Christian has the Son and has eternal life (John 5:24 and 1 John 5:12). It does seem that this teaches we have “eternal life,” and not just “the possibility of eternal life if you can avoid committing a mortal sin and die in a state of grace.”

Having “mortal sin” hanging over our heads robs us of our peace with God and of any assurance of salvation. If you review the verses above, with proper context, then how can we not have an assurance that we have salvation, that we have eternal life?

Secure in Christ, OldProf

 

[thesmiter1]

Jerry-Jet, I’ll assume you are referring to the illustration Jesus uses with his Disciples in John 15:1-17. The branches are true and false believers in Jesus. Do we know that there are “true” and “false” believers? Yes. Note that Jesus said:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23

Professing Christians that Jesus NEVER knew = false believers. Back to John 15. Those false believers will go to hell. They will never persevere. Repeat, they will NEVER persevere.

“If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” John 15:6

Now Jerry-Jet, you ignored my OSAS and assurance argument, and just gave a pot-shot refutation that doesn’t work. I’ve answered your “argument.” So how DO you deal with my earlier argument? I’m curious to see if you can deal with actual biblical statements. Can you?

Regards, OldProf

How, exactly, do you determine a ‘true’ believer from a ‘false’ believer? That seems a little contradictory. How are there false believers, if one must only accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, and be baptized? Why are you discounting the other parts of Scripture:

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (Mt 19: 17, KJV). This says explicitly that if you want life, keep the commandments.

If ye love me, keep my commandments (Jn 14: 15, KJV). This implies that if you don’t love Christ, you will not keep His commandments.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love (Jn 15: 10, KJV). This explicitly says you shall remain in Christ if you keep the commandments, implying that by failing to do so, you fail to abide in Him. Of course, you’ll bring up your 500 year-old interpretation that ‘this just means to accept Him into your heart and be baptized’, even though He clearly spoke to the rich man about keeping ALL the commandments.

Does it not seem to point out that keeping the commandments is a requirement in accepting Christ? Does Christ not say that the chaff will be burned, and that we must keep His commandments to abide in Him? Tell me, then, if we do not keep His commandments, and thus not abide in Him, and the chaff does not abide in Him, what does that make those who do not keep the commandments? Wouldn’t it be the chaff?

You also bring up assurance, yet Paul tells us he is running a race, and working out his salvation in fear and trembling. Is he, then, a false believer? He surely wasn’t confident that he was saved at that moment. I’m sure you’ve addressed this with some ‘interpretation’. Can I ask you something: what, exactly, gives your interpretation more credence than 2,000 years of extremely meticulous and historical interpretation of both Scripture AND Tradition?

I also question your interpretation of the vine and the branches, and the ‘false believers’ and ‘true believers’. You do realize your interpretation is a very recent thing, in terms of Biblical translation and oral tradition? As we have shown, we can back up that we are not guaranteed salvation, and we have done so using Bible verses. Not only this, but the interpretation we use is that supported by the entire history and tradition of the Church.

You ‘debunk’ these verses with your own interpretation, and with theology that is no more than 500 years old. We back ours up with 2,000 years of theology and tradition. The Didache itself teaches confession, as do early Church Fathers. Face it, my friend: your interpretation is quite out-gunned by history, AND we have Bible verses that have historical interpretation on our side.

All you are doing at this point is fervently proclaiming what YOU believe the verses to mean. Even in the spirit of ‘sola scriptura’, your interpretation has no more credence than ours. We have pointed to Bible verses that contradict your interpretation. What makes ours worth any less? Is it now ‘sola scriptura, but only my interpretation’? And again, OUR interpretation not only has theological backing, but HISTORY AND TRADITION as well. You are barking up the wrong tree. You are playing ‘Bible baseball’, and you are playing with a Church that PUT THE BIBLE TOGETHER.

 

[thesmiter1]

adrift, I posted this on 4 APR 12 in #72 of this thread, but here it is again.

According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

…

Secure in Christ, OldProf

YOU believe that the Bible clearly teaches salvation. YOU, based on YOUR interpretation. Yet we have pointed to verses in the VERY SAME BIBLE that say you must keep the commandments. So, which is it? Your interpretation? One of the other 30,000 Christian denominations? Or, maybe, the historical and traditional teaching of the Church of 2,000 years?

Again, the Bible did not exist for several hundred years. How, exactly, did all these traditions develop? Maybe it was that most people were illiterate, and were taught by oral tradition? Maybe Paul isn’t full of it when he says to keep fast to his WORDS (even in your KJV. Darn it, where’s the Bible only? Why didn’t Paul teach Sola Scriptura?).

Why is it so hard to comprehend that maybe, just maybe, we have free will, and can choose by our actions to reject Christ? Judas did it, did he not? I don’t know how much more biblical it gets than that. Or what about the couple in Acts that tried to defraud the Church, and were killed by God? I guess they weren’t baptized enough.

So, we have show Biblical examples of people accepting Christ and then rejecting Him, and the results were not so pleasant. We have Biblical examples of Christ saying we MUST keep the commandments to abide in Him (he mentions the golden rule AND the OT commandments). We have Paul saying it is a race, and he is WORKING OUT his salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING (this looks bad for your position ANY WAY you spin it). We also have TWO-THOUSAND YEARS OF TRADITION, WHICH PREDATES THE BIBLE ITSELF (and is even mentioned IN THE BIBLE).

You like to spout the sections about ‘belief’ in Him equaling eternal life. But what does it mean to truly believe? He already said it: We must KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Empty words are just that: empty. I can proclaim Christ all I want, but if I have not works, my faith is dead. If I don’t cooperate with Christ’s grace by allowing Him to work within me, and thereby keep His commandments, that is a SURE way to fail to abide in Him.

So what exactly do you want? Based on your own parameters of sola scriptura, we have just as valid an explanation as you, because we have drawn instances in Scripture. We ALSO have history and TRADITION, which is mentioned IN THE BIBLE ITSELF (which, in conjunction with the absence of a Bible for several hundred years, and the inability of people to read the Bible for 2,000 years -there are still illiterate people- kinda seems to negate sola scriptura). We also translated the Bible from Greek to Latin and made the Canon itself, and we did this because we need the Word of God, but we did this with TRADITION in mind.

Lastly, sin SHOULD cause unrest in the soul. Not so much that we despair, but enough that we want to rest again in Christ. The concept of sin seemed to cause unrest in Paul, did it not? When Peter sinned, it certainly seemed to cause him unrest (he wept, did he not?). Why did their sins hang over their head? Maybe because they were CONTRITE and wanted to be reunited with Christ? Maybe it is not such a bad thing to be troubled a bit by sin, knowing that it harms Christ’s body (we ARE members of His Body, after all, are we not? Paul says we are, and says we must treat our bodies as such). We must not DESPAIR at our sin. We CAN be troubled when we sin, but be put to rest by Christ and confidence in His mercy, and thus seek to fly unto Him when we sin.