Assurance of Salvation

[Jerry-Jet]

The branches CAN NOT be believers AND unbelievers because a good tree cannot bear bad fruit–that’s what Jesus taught.

The branches draw their very supernatural life from Christ–NO ONE can have the supernatural life of Christ in them and NOT at that moment be saved.

While that is true it is ALSO true that those SAVED branches can be cut off and burned!

What is that if not LOSS of salvation?

Salvation is not a brand–it is continuous–but not ALWAYS NECESSARILY so.

If it was necessarily so that it was always continuous–NONE of the branches with Christ flowing with life in them could be cut off and burned.

When those branches after being alive in Christ do not bear fruit–Christ curses them like he did the fig tree!

 

[OldProf]

How, exactly, do you determine a ‘true’ believer from a ‘false’ believer? That seems a little contradictory. How are there false believers, if one must only accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, and be baptized? Why are you discounting the other parts of Scripture:

thesmiter1 - in your two posts you come across as, well, … shrill. It may just be your writing style. Here are some comments on your posts #556 and #557.

How, exactly, do you determine a ‘true’ believer from a ‘false’ believer?

We are fruit inspectors, but we cannot know their heart. Hence, my Evidence Lists 1 and 2. These nicely summarize what the Bible says to look for and expect in a true believer.

Why are you discounting the other parts of Scripture

I’m not aware that I do that. I’m guessing you have not read many of my responses on this thread, or you may not be so quick to judge me. Perhaps you can help me with John 9:1 thru John 10:30. The Pharisees have to deal with a real miracle right in their backyard (in Jerusalem). They don’t do well, and when they engage Jesus, He tells them they are not His sheep, and that His sheep hear his voice and he knows them and they shall never perish. The four Greek words Jesus used for “never” mean not now or at any future time. The translation is:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

See my post #42 on 31 MAR 12, which was my first post on CA.

One more quick one so I can get back to work.

30,000 denominations?

Off topic (Topic: Assurance), but I will say this, you don’t want to use this argument. Why? Someone like me will come along and ask you to demonstrate the truth of your statement. You’ll then find there are like 50 basic doctrinal differences - that is biblical differences within these denominations - of any meaning within Protestantism. Then this same person will start to demonstrate that within the RCC itself there are similar doctrinal differences, with liberals and conservatives, with inerrantists and allegorists, with Evangelical Catholics, Pentacostal Roman Catholics, etc. It’s simply not a worthy argument nor do non sequitor arguments advance your case of being a thinking Roman Catholic Christian. That’s about as brief as I can be. Sola Scriptura is found and discussed on other threads within CA.

Perhaps, in the interest of dialog, you could indicate an important Scripture you believe I cannot deal with - similar to the John 9 thru John 10:30 I don’t belive Roman Catholic theology can deal with (or can it, can you?).

Did you find my recent post #546 on 16 Oct 12 incorrect? If so, then tell me why, since the Scriptures I used do support my argument quite well - the idea that Jesus sheep will never perish and have everlasting life and will be raised up on the last day.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

Angel, you have been with this thread from the beginning and a competent contributor. I appreciate and thank-you for that. But your argument here won’t work.

Eternal life is what the elect of God receive and they will go to heaven and they can have assurance of salvation in this life. There is NO works-righteousness system, and this is the unique aspect of biblical Christianity. Other religions require righteous works to earn salvation. We are saved by Grace. It is a free gift of God - a free gift of eternal life. We go from spiritually dead to spiritual life. I’ll try to add more to this tonight. Here are some verses which back up my statement.

“not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,” Titus 3:5

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

The elect of God do good works because we were prepared for them.

Sincerely, OldProf

…again, you continue to confuse Divine Grace with free-for-all claim to Salvation (Eternal Salvation).

Jesus is the Resurrection and Life… those who abide in Jesus allow Him to Abide in them… those who reject Jesus (all sinners) reject Eternal Life and not one single Believer nor Christ nor the Holy Spirit nor the Father has ever stipulated in Scriptures or otherwise that man is granted Eternal Salvation just because he states that Christ is Lord or just because he can quote passages in Scriptures that state that Jesus is Life or that those who Believe in Christ are granted a special “always saved” passage; rather from the very Beginning Yahweh God Commands that we choose Life in order that we should Live; you seem to ignore even the very passages that you cite:

For by grace you have been saved through faith

…while it is true that there’s nothing man can do to obtain Salvation (that’s the Divine Grace portion), it is also true that man can do much to reject Christ (that’s the sin/tendency to sin that resides in all men) and when we do we are rejecting that very Eternal Life in God; Jesus is not deceived by empty words or by man’s mighty works (preaching, healing, casting out evil spirits), in fact Jesus even warns the Believers to be weary of such signs (St. Matthew 24:23-26) that is why He makes sure that claims (osas or such) are mettled with clear and simple Truth:

If you love me you will keep my commandments. (St. John 14:15)

…note that Jesus did not say: ‘if you love Me, keep the 10 Commandments!’

…on the very next verse we find that Jesus is not allowing man to jump to any conclusion that he may engineer… Jesus sets the paramiters of that Love and that relationship with Him:

16 I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Paraclete to be with you for ever, 17 the Spirit of truth whom the world can never accept since it neither sees nor knows him; but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you. (St. John 14:16-17)

When a Believer returns to the world that Believer is no longer in allegiance with Christ and Christ’s Body:

6 If we say that we share in God’s life while we are living in darkness, we are lying, because we are not living the truth. 7 But if we live in light, as he is in light, we have a share in another’s life, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say, ‘We have no sin,’ we are deceiving ourselves, and truth has no place in us; 9 if we acknowledge our sins, he is trustworthy and upright, so that he will forgive our sins and will cleanse us from all evil. 10 If we say, ‘We have never sinned,’ we make him a liar, and his word has no place in us. (1 John 1:6-10)

4 Adulterers! Do you not realise that love for the world is hatred for God? Anyone who chooses the world for a friend is constituted an enemy of God. 5 Can you not see the point of the saying in scripture, ‘The longing of the spirit he sent to dwell in us is a jealous longing.’? 6 But he has given us an even greater grace, as scripture says: God opposes the proud but he accords his favour to the humble. 7 Give in to God, then; resist the devil, and he will run away from you. 8 The nearer you go to God, the nearer God will come to you. Clean your hands, you sinners, and clear your minds, you waverers. 9 Appreciate your wretchedness, and weep for it in misery. Your laughter must be turned to grief, your happiness to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will lift you up. (St. James 4:4-10)

…note that St. James does not state that the unBelievers are friends of the world… rather, he states that anyone (which includes the Believers) that befriends the world makes him/herself an enemy of God… further, he clues the Believers in what must be done: humble yourselves before the Lord!

…quoting Scriptures as “proof positive” that one is Eternally Saved shows no obedience to Scriptures and to the Lord since Scriptures and Christ demand that we abide in Him so that He may Abide in us not that we claim to be Eternally Saved!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

adrift, I posted this on 4 APR 12 in #72 of this thread, but here it is again.

According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

If list 1 is true, but not list 2, then I cannot tell if that person is a professing Christian, or if they are Christian, but such a babe in Christ that they haven’t matured to list 2.

If list 2 is true, then list 1 will also be true. List 2 “fruits” will persevere in the Christian.

I don’t have any trust in my own “good works” that fall under the category of Eph 2:10. God prepared me for those, and it is not my doing my part or my cooperating with God as I work out my salvation. Christians do good works - not to secure salvation, but because of their salvation. “Professing Christians” can leave the faith because they were never known by Jesus (Matt 7:21-23) nor ever one of His sheep (1 John 2:19). They were not born of God (John 1:13) or born again (John 3:3) or a new creation (2 Cor 5:17).

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of his/her salvation. Will Jesus, the Good Shepherd (John 9:35-10:30), lose any sheep? No. Will God who began a good work in us (Php 1:6) quit on us? No, He will complete it. Will someone, chosen by God, ever actually be lost (John 6:37-40)? No. Can we have peace with God (Rom 5:1) through our Christian faith? Yes. Seems like the Christian can have an assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13 - a wonderful letter written to address that very issue - the themes in 1 John are happiness, holiness, and security).

A Christian has the Son and has eternal life (John 5:24 and 1 John 5:12). It does seem that this teaches we have “eternal life,” and not just “the possibility of eternal life if you can avoid committing a mortal sin and die in a state of grace.”

Having “mortal sin” hanging over our heads robs us of our peace with God and of any assurance of salvation. If you review the verses above, with proper context, then how can we not have an assurance that we have salvation, that we have eternal life?

Secure in Christ, OldProf

…it is not the Church that sets mortal sin over our heads it is the person that commits sin and rejects Christ by claiming that he/she has no sin that robs him/herself of peace and Eternal Salvation.

Scriptures clearly state that nothing impure will ever enter into the presence of God; a person who obstinately refuses to change/give up/repent from sin cannot claim Eternal Salvation because Jesus Died on the Cross–that would be tantamount to claiming (as 007) a license to sin!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thesmiter1]

thesmiter1 - in your two posts you come across as, well, … shrill. It may just be your writing style. Here are some comments on your posts #556 and #557.

How, exactly, do you determine a ‘true’ believer from a ‘false’ believer?

We are fruit inspectors, but we cannot know their heart. Hence, my Evidence Lists 1 and 2. These nicely summarize what the Bible says to look for and expect in a true believer.

Why are you discounting the other parts of Scripture

I’m not aware that I do that. I’m guessing you have not read many of my responses on this thread, or you may not be so quick to judge me. Perhaps you can help me with John 9:1 thru John 10:30. The Pharisees have to deal with a real miracle right in their backyard (in Jerusalem). They don’t do well, and when they engage Jesus, He tells them they are not His sheep, and that His sheep hear his voice and he knows them and they shall never perish. The four Greek words Jesus used for “never” mean not now or at any future time. The translation is:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

See my post #42 on 31 MAR 12, which was my first post on CA.

One more quick one so I can get back to work.

30,000 denominations?

Off topic (Topic: Assurance), but I will say this, you don’t want to use this argument. Why? Someone like me will come along and ask you to demonstrate the truth of your statement. You’ll then find there are like 50 basic doctrinal differences - that is biblical differences within these denominations - of any meaning within Protestantism. Then this same person will start to demonstrate that within the RCC itself there are similar doctrinal differences, with liberals and conservatives, with inerrantists and allegorists, with Evangelical Catholics, Pentacostal Roman Catholics, etc. It’s simply not a worthy argument nor do non sequitor arguments advance your case of being a thinking Roman Catholic Christian. That’s about as brief as I can be. Sola Scriptura is found and discussed on other threads within CA.

Perhaps, in the interest of dialog, you could indicate an important Scripture you believe I cannot deal with - similar to the John 9 thru John 10:30 I don’t belive Roman Catholic theology can deal with (or can it, can you?).

Did you find my recent post #546 on 16 Oct 12 incorrect? If so, then tell me why, since the Scriptures I used do support my argument quite well - the idea that Jesus sheep will never perish and have everlasting life and will be raised up on the last day.

Sincerely, OldProf

You want me to address a particular passage, but you didn’t address many of the passages I have shown. You use a different passage to discount those I have shown requiring us to keep the commandments. That, my friend, is not a valid defense. Why does it say we must keep the commandments? Why does St. Paul say we must run the race, and work out our salvation in fear and trembling?

Nice ad hominem, by the way. I find it amusing I can come off as shrill, when that is a word generally used in a literal sense when referring to an actual sound. I have never seen someone attempt to appear intelligent yet fail to address so much of the actual argument I made. You have not addressed several of the scripture passages I presented, you have not addressed the argument that your interpretation is no more valid than mine, you have not addressed the use of traditional beliefs regarding the interpretation of the bible, you have not taken into account two thousand years of dogma that existed before yours, and you have called me ‘shrill’, at that. Address all my points, please.

As for your 50 different theologies and several different factions within the Church: there is still ONE Church. People dissenting does not equate to a different Church.

In John 9: 1 through John 10: 30 - Interestingly enough, in the first part of John 9, Jesus doesn’t simply heal the blind beggar with spittle and clay. He requires him to get up, take action, and go wash in Siloam. This is more proof positive that Christ gives us quite a hand in our own salvation. If you are referring to the section in John 10 that says no one will snatch them away, then I must ask, what does it mean to truly be a sheep? The Lord has already given us the answer: believe in Him AND keep the commandments. You take believer to be literally just a believer. To be a true believer, it is quite obvious to me (and many, many before me) that we must actually DO something our whole lives: STAY faithful to Christ by keeping His commandments. Jesus even says so.

Is there a problem with this theology of mine? I have already pointed to scripture passages in which Christ says that to receive salvation we must keep the commandments. Why is it wrong to interpret being a ‘believer’ as actually following Christ, in deed as well as word? Those who keep the commandments will not be snatched up by the devil. Besides improving our relationship with God, this is the purpose of the commandments: to save us from eternal death.

 

[jcrichton]

YOU believe that the Bible clearly teaches salvation. YOU, based on YOUR interpretation. Yet we have pointed to verses in the VERY SAME BIBLE that say you must keep the commandments. So, which is it? Your interpretation? One of the other 30,000 Christian denominations? Or, maybe, the historical and traditional teaching of the Church of 2,000 years?

Again, the Bible did not exist for several hundred years. How, exactly, did all these traditions develop? Maybe it was that most people were illiterate, and were taught by oral tradition? Maybe Paul isn’t full of it when he says to keep fast to his WORDS (even in your KJV. Darn it, where’s the Bible only? Why didn’t Paul teach Sola Scriptura?).

Why is it so hard to comprehend that maybe, just maybe, we have free will, and can choose by our actions to reject Christ? Judas did it, did he not? I don’t know how much more biblical it gets than that. Or what about the couple in Acts that tried to defraud the Church, and were killed by God? I guess they weren’t baptized enough.

So, we have show Biblical examples of people accepting Christ and then rejecting Him, and the results were not so pleasant. We have Biblical examples of Christ saying we MUST keep the commandments to abide in Him (he mentions the golden rule AND the OT commandments). We have Paul saying it is a race, and he is WORKING OUT his salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING (this looks bad for your position ANY WAY you spin it). We also have TWO-THOUSAND YEARS OF TRADITION, WHICH PREDATES THE BIBLE ITSELF (and is even mentioned IN THE BIBLE).

You like to spout the sections about ‘belief’ in Him equaling eternal life. But what does it mean to truly believe? He already said it: We must KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Empty words are just that: empty. I can proclaim Christ all I want, but if I have not works, my faith is dead. If I don’t cooperate with Christ’s grace by allowing Him to work within me, and thereby keep His commandments, that is a SURE way to fail to abide in Him.

So what exactly do you want? Based on your own parameters of sola scriptura, we have just as valid an explanation as you, because we have drawn instances in Scripture. We ALSO have history and TRADITION, which is mentioned IN THE BIBLE ITSELF (which, in conjunction with the absence of a Bible for several hundred years, and the inability of people to read the Bible for 2,000 years -there are still illiterate people- kinda seems to negate sola scriptura). We also translated the Bible from Greek to Latin and made the Canon itself, and we did this because we need the Word of God, but we did this with TRADITION in mind.

Lastly, sin SHOULD cause unrest in the soul. Not so much that we despair, but enough that we want to rest again in Christ. The concept of sin seemed to cause unrest in Paul, did it not? When Peter sinned, it certainly seemed to cause him unrest (he wept, did he not?). Why did their sins hang over their head? Maybe because they were CONTRITE and wanted to be reunited with Christ? Maybe it is not such a bad thing to be troubled a bit by sin, knowing that it harms Christ’s body (we ARE members of His Body, after all, are we not? Paul says we are, and says we must treat our bodies as such). We must not DESPAIR at our sin. We CAN be troubled when we sin, but be put to rest by Christ and confidence in His mercy, and thus seek to fly unto Him when we sin.

…interesting the you bring up St. Peter… since according to those who believe that the sheep in Christ’s hand cannot be lost, why would Jesus pray that Peter return to Him and gather the rest:

31 ‘Simon, Simon! Look, Satan has got his wish to sift you all like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail, and once you have recovered, you in your turn must strengthen your brothers.’ (St. Luke 22:31-32)

…since the Eleven were fully eternally saved… why would Jesus need to Pray for their Return to the Fold?

…it seems that the osas people are more righteous and saved than even the Eleven… either that or Jesus was making Himself Important by claiming that He “Prayed” for their return to Him (the Resurrection and the Life)! :bigyikes:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thesmiter1]

…interesting the you bring up St. Peter… since according to those who believe that the sheep in Christ’s hand cannot be lost, why would Jesus pray that Peter return to Him and gather the rest:

…since the Eleven were fully eternally saved… why would Jesus need to Pray for their Return to the Fold?

…it seems that the osas people are more righteous and saved than even the Eleven… either that or Jesus was making Himself Important by claiming that He “Prayed” for their return to Him (the Resurrection and the Life)! :bigyikes:

Maran atha!

Angel

Good point! Why would Christ pray for them if they were eternally saved before their deaths? Why would Peter weep after sinning?

Of course, he didn’t answer the majority of my argument. He actually argued very little. He did, however, call me shrill and put out some rather unconvincing arguments that selectively interpret scripture.

I am getting to the point that I feel it is rather waste to continue, as he won’t address the fact that Christ Himself said that we must keep the commandments, that Paul was not certain of salvation, and the many other points I put forth. It seems rather fruitless.

 

[jcrichton]

The branches CAN NOT be believers AND unbelievers because a good tree cannot bear bad fruit–that’s what Jesus taught.

The branches draw their very supernatural life from Christ–NO ONE can have the supernatural life of Christ in them and NOT at that moment be saved.

While that is true it is ALSO true that those SAVED branches can be cut off and burned!

What is that if not LOSS of salvation?

Salvation is not a brand–it is continuous–but not ALWAYS NECESSARILY so.

If it was necessarily so that it was always continuous–NONE of the branches with Christ flowing with life in them could be cut off and burned.

When those branches after being alive in Christ do not bear fruit–Christ curses them like he did the fig tree!

Exactly!

…that’s why heretics do not spring up from atheism or the unBelievers but from those who, at a time, were in the Fold as part of Christ’s Body… their Pride (ego) caused them to believe and preach a different Gospel than that Taught by the Church (found even at the very inception of the Church)… they are the branches that do not produce fruit and will be cut and burned!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Good point! Why would Christ pray for them if they were eternally saved before their deaths? Why would Peter weep after sinning?

Of course, he didn’t answer the majority of my argument. He actually argued very little. He did, however, call me shrill and put out some rather unconvincing arguments that selectively interpret scripture.

I am getting to the point that I feel it is rather waste to continue, as he won’t address the fact that Christ Himself said that we must keep the commandments, that Paul was not certain of salvation, and the many other points I put forth. It seems rather fruitless.

…yeah, I usually read every post… but when I got to his “shrill” I decided to stop… there are several others as he that continue to visit Catholic forums spreading their ideologies and wisdom… but as you noted they would not reason even with Scriptures since they reject/reflect anything that does not fit into their theology…

…what truly baffles me is that most of them have a strong Biblical background (much like the Jehovah Witnesses three years’ endoctrination) but they use selectinve reasoning and interpretation to feel their way through Scriptures… Jesus called them the blind leading the blind because they claim to know God and God’s Word yet they not only refused to Listen to Jesus but they keep others from entering into the Body of Christ!

…I engage them, from time to time, in hopes that the Holy Spirit might use the opportunity to convict them of the Truth.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thesmiter1]

I found yet another Scripture passage that tells what it means to be a believer: John 3: 16, and then John 3: 19-21

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

This is the same chapter of John. It says nothing about men loving darkness (rather than light) because they don’t believe. It says they love darkness because their deeds are evil. If you can only serve one master, and you serve by deed, as John says, then evil deeds reject the light. It is obvious that there is a bit more to ‘believing’ than just being baptized and proclaiming we believe. We must choose the light by our deeds.

Also coming to mind is the parable of the two sons. One said to his father that he would work in the field, and then shirked his duty. One refused in word, but repented and honored his father by fulfilling his work. Jesus asks which does the will of the father. It is the son who actually worked.

We must note that the son NOT only repented, but actually went and worked in the field. Jesus relates this to harlots and tax collectors who repent (meaning they believe AND turn away from evil) entering the Kingdom before the Pharisees, because they proclaim God with their mouths, yet reject Christ in both word and deed. If the harlots and tax collectors believe as the second son believes, they repent and do the will of the Father. They don’t ‘repent’ and then go right on stealing and fornicating. Bearing in mind that Christ said that to abide in Him, we must keep the commandments, and that one rejects the light through evil deeds, it again seems pretty clear that ‘believing’ in a purely mental way is not enough.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

I joined a bit late, caught up on some posts, found yours and read some of your previous posts. Catching up can be difficult… . I would like to address your “OSAS argument” and see what develops.

As I see it, there really is a major difference in the way Catholics follow Christ’s Message as opposed to the way Non-Catholics do. For example, Catholics believe:

1- Christ is God - denied by some Non-Catholics
2- Christ was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in the ever-virgin womb of Mary - denied by many non-Catholics
3- Christ founded His Church on Peter, promised the Gates of Hell would not previal, that His Chruch would never teach error, and that He would never abandon His Church - denied by all Protestants
4- Christ announced that unless you eat His Flesh you will have no life - and gave us the means to do this at the Last Supper when He changed common bread and wine into His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity at the Last Supper
5- Christ announced that if we are to have life we are to follow Him - through our cooperation with His Grace and do the Works of God - denied by almost all Protestants
6- Christ appointed the Apostles to carry on His Work and provided the Holy Spirit to see that this would be accomplished until His Second Coming.
7- That faithful men after Christ and the Apostolic Age continued to carry on the Mission of Christ to baptize all nations and proclaim the Word of God - denied by many Protestants
8- The Holy Spirit inspired the Catholic Church to identify those works that were inspired by God and to collect them as a set called the Bible - much ignorance from many Protestants on how they got their own Bible (essentially thinking Luther crafted the entire document).

So, Catholics believe in Scripture, Tradition and the teachings of the Catholic Church. Protestants only have an abridged Bible and the assorted teachings of competing and combative humans.

Here are some Scriptural readings you may find deny OSAS.

Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.

This represents only a very small sample - here is the link where you can get substantial information: scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

God bless

NO. Since a mortal sin is always an option, you cannot know you are going to heaven. In addition, the sin of presumption can also be a mortal sin, so it is dangerous to assume you have the assurance of salvation. That is the RCC view.

Next you say you don’t believe on OSAS, but the question is, does the Bible teach OSAS? I say yes, it does.

Your John 6:47 quote is a good one. It actually means everlasting life - a life that goes on forever and ever. Eternal life. Everlasting life.

Since a believer has everlasting life, and since Jesus’ sheep never perish (John 10:27-29), and since all those chosen by the Father and given to Jesus (to become His sheep) shall be raised up on the last day (John 6:37-40), and, finally, since the Apostle John tells us we can know that we have everlasting life (1 John 5:13), then we can certainly have an assurance of salvation. Biblically speaking, that is.

Remember, we are NOT under condemnation (Romans 8:1), nothing in creation can separate us from God’s love (even ourselves per Romans 8:37-39), and since God is the author of salvation (Hebrews 12:2), what God begins, He completes (Philippians 1:6).

So, biblically, OSAS is taught and the Christian believer can have assurance of their salvation. Self-examination to make sure you are “in” Christ is important, and I’ll talk about that if you respond to this.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Thesmiter1,

Excellent!

Here is another example - the crippled man who for 38 had this infirmity as recorded in John:veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/John_5

Jesus heals the man - but, apparently this now-healed individual had some singificant defects of character and soul - for he went to the Pharisees to tell them who had cured him. Christ finds the man and tells him he will have to reform his life - not that he will have to believe more.

God bless

I found yet another Scripture passage that tells what it means to be a believer: John 3: 16, and then John 3: 19-21

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

This is the same chapter of John. It says nothing about men loving darkness (rather than light) because they don’t believe. It says they love darkness because their deeds are evil. If you can only serve one master, and you serve by deed, as John says, then evil deeds reject the light. It is obvious that there is a bit more to ‘believing’ than just being baptized and proclaiming we believe. We must choose the light by our deeds.

Also coming to mind is the parable of the two sons. One said to his father that he would work in the field, and then shirked his duty. One refused in word, but repented and honored his father by fulfilling his work. Jesus asks which does the will of the father. It is the son who actually worked.

We must note that the son NOT only repented, but actually went and worked in the field. Jesus relates this to harlots and tax collectors who repent (meaning they believe AND turn away from evil) entering the Kingdom before the Pharisees, because they proclaim God with their mouths, yet reject Christ in both word and deed. If the harlots and tax collectors believe as the second son believes, they repent and do the will of the Father. They don’t ‘repent’ and then go right on stealing and fornicating. Bearing in mind that Christ said that to abide in Him, we must keep the commandments, and that one rejects the light through evil deeds, it again seems pretty clear that ‘believing’ in a purely mental way is not enough.

 

[OldProf]

The branches CAN NOT be believers AND unbelievers because a good tree cannot bear bad fruit–that’s what Jesus taught.

The branches draw their very supernatural life from Christ–NO ONE can have the supernatural life of Christ in them and NOT at that moment be saved.

While that is true it is ALSO true that those SAVED branches can be cut off and burned!

What is that if not LOSS of salvation?

Salvation is not a brand–it is continuous–but not ALWAYS NECESSARILY so.

If it was necessarily so that it was always continuous–NONE of the branches with Christ flowing with life in them could be cut off and burned.

When those branches after being alive in Christ do not bear fruit–Christ curses them like he did the fig tree!

Jerry-Jet, if you are correct in the above, then I think you have a problem with Jesus. Here it is. When Jesus tells the Jews He is talking to that they are NOT of his sheep, he then immediately says,

“27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-30

Clearly His sheep will never perish because that word “never” in the Greek means “not now or at any future time.” And earlier in John 6, Jesus said,

“37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

That is consistent with the way Jesus describes the sheep in 10:27-30.

And I think you have a problem with Paul in Romans 8. Paul writes,

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1

Those would again be Jesus’ sheep. Notice how Paul continues a little later with the role of the Holy Spirit,

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Rom 8:26-30

Paul then closes chapter 8, with a picture of God’s love for His elect ones:

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Beautifully written, and once again, this, too, is consistent with sheep that never perish. When we read these passages with care and with prayer, we get the impression that when God begins a good work in us (“salvation is of the LORD” Jonah 2:9), He will complete that work (which is what Paul also writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6).

However, if the sheep (the elect) are once and always saved (eternal life = free gift, Rom 6:23), there is not a problem with John 15 when we understand the branches as both true and false believers per my #549 post earlier.

Can you see my thought process on this in reconciling the various Scriptures?

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

I think I can see it. I am also aware of the agony that Calvin put himself through trying to reconcile his insight into God’s Mercy and God’s Will. He simply could not do it - so he came up with OSAS - because while he may have had doubts others - he was convinced that he was saved. So, let’s take a look your logic.

First, when John uses the term, ‘the Jews’ it is in reference to the religious leaders of the time who rejected Christ and His Message of Salvation. Note - Christ was a Jew and so were all of His Apostles. Virtually all of those who heard His preaching were Jews and some of them accepted Him while other rejected Him. It is this latter group that did not, “…hear His Voice…”

The Devil does not have the power to ‘snatch them’ from God - but, that really isn’t the issue you are addressing. We either have free will or we don’t - there is no middle ground on this one. It is us who have the power through the abuse of our free will to abandon God and follow the Devil. The issue is do we die accepting God’s Grace - no matter how we lived, or do we reject God’s Grace no matter how we live? We know that God will not be mocked (Gal 6;7) so undoubted those who live a life of sin do not appear to have the habit of turning to God - but the take home message is that Christ promised the ‘Good Thief’’ he would be with Christ in paradise (Luke 24:43) Conversely, the Pharisees thought they were living according to the Law - but Christ repeatedly told them of their major failures.

And, in your interst in quoting St. Paul, omitting his concern about failing at the last - to be a castaway - needs to be addressed. (1Cor 9:27 - here is a link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_Corinthians_9 ) The issue for St. Paul is how he will end his life. And, that is the issue for all of us. Do we persevere to the end (Matt 24:13) or not. On that everything depends - and St. Paul knew this.

Free Will is another real problem that Calvin had - how can one be free yet God knows what they are going to do? Truly, the implications of that question ate him up every day. Calvin was convinced he ‘had to have certainty’ to be sure. And, in so doing - he betrayed his tremendous lack of faith. Living the life of a major contradiction was a real issue for this tremendously intelligent man.

God bless

Jerry-Jet, if you are correct in the above, then I think you have a problem with Jesus. Here it is. When Jesus tells the Jews He is talking to that they are NOT of his sheep, he then immediately says,

“27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-30

Clearly His sheep will never perish because that word “never” in the Greek means “not now or at any future time.” And earlier in John 6, Jesus said,

Beautifully written, and once again, this, too, is consistent with sheep that never perish. When we read these passages with care and with prayer, we get the impression that when God begins a good work in us (“salvation is of the LORD” Jonah 2:9), He will complete that work (which is what Paul also writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6).

However, if the sheep (the elect) are once and always saved (eternal life = free gift, Rom 6:23), there is not a problem with John 15 when we understand the branches as both true and false believers per my #549 post earlier.

Can you see my thought process on this in reconciling the various Scriptures?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

I think I can see it. I am also aware of the agony that Calvin put himself through trying to reconcile his insight into God’s Mercy and God’s Will. He simply could not do it - so he came up with OSAS - because while he may have had doubts others - he was convinced that he was saved. So, let’s take a look your logic.

First, when John uses the term, ‘the Jews’ it is in reference to the religious leaders of the time who rejected Christ and His Message of Salvation. Note - Christ was a Jew and so were all of His Apostles. Virtually all of those who heard His preaching were Jews and some of them accepted Him while other rejected Him. It is this latter group that did not, “…hear His Voice…”

The Devil does not have the power to ‘snatch them’ from God - but, that really isn’t the issue you are addressing. We either have free will or we don’t - there is no middle ground on this one. It is us who have the power through the abuse of our free will to abandon God and follow the Devil. The issue is do we die accepting God’s Grace - no matter how we lived, or do we reject God’s Grace no matter how we live? We know that God will not be mocked (Gal 6;7) so undoubted those who live a life of sin do not appear to have the habit of turning to God - but the take home message is that Christ promised the ‘Good Thief’’ he would be with Christ in paradise (Luke 24:43) Conversely, the Pharisees thought they were living according to the Law - but Christ repeatedly told them of their major failures.

And, in your interst in quoting St. Paul, omitting his concern about failing at the last - to be a castaway - needs to be addressed. (1Cor 9:27 - here is a link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_Corinthians_9 ) The issue for St. Paul is how he will end his life. And, that is the issue for all of us. Do we persevere to the end (Matt 24:13) or not. On that everything depends - and St. Paul knew this.

Free Will is another real problem that Calvin had - how can one be free yet God knows what they are going to do? Truly, the implications of that question ate him up every day. Calvin was convinced he ‘had to have certainty’ to be sure. And, in so doing - he betrayed his tremendous lack of faith. Living the life of a major contradiction was a real issue for this tremendously intelligent man.

God bless

Hi Tom. Thank-you for your gracious response. You’ve given some other verses, and I can check them, but I’m trying to determine if the Scriptures are clear that Jesus’ sheep can “never perish” - I think they are, so I think “mortal sin” is incorrect.

For some perspective, I’ve played in a lot of chess in tournaments, and I’ve earned the title of “Master” in correspondence chess. So I’m used to trying to figure out all the moves the opponent will make and what counter moves will be required. In this case, the sheep never perishing is like a checkmate. There is no getting around it, from what I can tell. If that is the case, and that is why I brought in some other supporting Scriptures in my response to Jerry-Jet, then we cannot have sheep getting sent to hell in John 15 like he thinks.

I became a Christian in 1993 and have had a passion for systematic theology since then. I bought Calvin’s institutes in about 1995 and have about 35 systematic theology textbooks in my library now. Most of the serious, conservative seminaries and Christian colleges use these textbooks for their upper level theology courses. A few teach that a person can lose their salvation (RCC, Lutheran, Methodist, Free Will Baptist doctrine), but the majority lay out a very strong biblical case, OT and NT, for eternal security or OSAS as we’ve discussed. Systematic theology defines doctrine taking into account the entirety of the Scriptures.

So, Tom, to have the greatest impact on me, you need to demonstrate that these clear verses of Scripture teach that the sheep can perish, that eternal life does not actually mean eternal life (such as eternal life only means “the possibility of eternal life”), that those whom the Father gives to Jesus have a possibility of not persevering and not being raised up on the last day.

This comes from my belief that the best way to interpret Scripture is by Scripture. Thus, in my mind, Jesus teaches sheep never perish, so all sheep drawn by the Father will be raised up on the last day, and these other verses in the Bible that “seem” to teach a loss of salvation for the sheep have an explanation that does not contradict the sheep never perish verses. I have found that I can find those reconciling explanations. I’m convinced the Bible does not have any “real” contradictions.

Regards, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

Jerry-Jet, if you are correct in the above, then I think you have a problem with Jesus. Here it is. When Jesus tells the Jews He is talking to that they are NOT of his sheep, he then immediately says,

“27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-30

Clearly His sheep will never perish because that word “never” in the Greek means “not now or at any future time.” And earlier in John 6, Jesus said,

“37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

That is consistent with the way Jesus describes the sheep in 10:27-30.

And I think you have a problem with Paul in Romans 8. Paul writes,

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1

Those would again be Jesus’ sheep. Notice how Paul continues a little later with the role of the Holy Spirit,

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Rom 8:26-30

Paul then closes chapter 8, with a picture of God’s love for His elect ones:

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Beautifully written, and once again, this, too, is consistent with sheep that never perish. When we read these passages with care and with prayer, we get the impression that when God begins a good work in us (“salvation is of the LORD” Jonah 2:9), He will complete that work (which is what Paul also writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6).

However, if the sheep (the elect) are once and always saved (eternal life = free gift, Rom 6:23), there is not a problem with John 15 when we understand the branches as both true and false believers per my #549 post earlier.

Can you see my thought process on this in reconciling the various Scriptures?

Regards, OldProf

OldProf, Christ is not saying that the sheep cannot be lost because they determined that they do not want to be in Christ’s Hand… Christ tells us that as long as we abide (make Him our Home) He will Abide with us… that’s where the “Eternal” part of Life comes in not in reading Scriptures and holding God accountable to our interpretation of His Word!

If the Believer falters (turn back to a life of sin, believes that he can commit sin without suffering any consequence or loses Faith) God will not force Eternal Salvation upon that person; the best example I can offer to you is found in the passage where Peter calls to Jesus and requests that *he too *be allowed to walk on water… at first, when Peter is completely dependent upon Jesus, he walks on water just as the Master… but soon, even though Jesus is right there with Him, Cephas relies upon himself and allows temporal fears to pierce his conviction (Christ Saves)… Peter falters and quicky begins to sink… the failure of Peter was not due to Jesus losing His Authority over nature nor having any loss of Divine Power… it was all due to Peter’s double-mindedness: ‘…yes, that is Jesus, the Lord and Master… but just look at the fury of the wind and the water… oh my!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

OldProf, Christ is not saying that the sheep cannot be lost because they determined that they do not want to be in Christ’s Hand… Christ tells us that as long as we abide (make Him our Home) He will Abide with us… that’s where the “Eternal” part of Life comes in not in reading Scriptures and holding God accountable to our interpretation of His Word!

Angel, I agree - I don’t hold God to MY interpretation. However, there is “exegesis” - that is, what DID God say? He said His sheep “will never perish” (John 10:28), and I demonstrated the consistency of that with John 6:37-40.

If the Believer falters (turn back to a life of sin, believes that he can commit sin without suffering any consequence or loses Faith) God will not force Eternal Salvation upon that person; the best example I can offer to you is found in the passage where Peter calls to Jesus and requests that *he too *be allowed to walk on water… at first, when Peter is completely dependent upon Jesus, he walks on water just as the Master… but soon, even though Jesus is right there with Him, Cephas relies upon himself and allows temporal fears to pierce his conviction (Christ Saves)… Peter falters and quicky begins to sink… the failure of Peter was not due to Jesus losing His Authority over nature nor having any loss of Divine Power… it was all due to Peter’s double-mindedness: ‘…yes, that is Jesus, the Lord and Master… but just look at the fury of the wind and the water… oh my!’

Maran atha!

Angel

I understand the example. Now think about it. If you see your child playing in the street and a car is coming, you WILL go out and pull your child off the street. God does that for the sheep, the elect of God. He “forces” them back on track. It is a very loving thing that He does.

The reason I gave the Romans 8 verses, specifically 8:39, is to anticipate someone saying what you just said, that God won’t step on a “believer’s” free will to leave the faith - to finally reject Christ. But Paul doesn’t allow that. Nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Paul leaves no doubt.

The true believer will abide in Christ to the end, even though he/she may, on occasion, fail to keep the commandments and fall into sin. And that sin will make them a most miserable sheep, and God will not just “let it go” - He will punish it on Earth. Can I prove it. Yes, Hebrews 12:5-11.

And this is also why I said we get the impression that when God begins a good work in us (“salvation is of the LORD” Jonah 2:9), He will complete that work (which is what Paul also writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6).

That is exegesis, my friend. I don’t have to interpret what is clearly stated.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Glad you became a Christian! I am quite sure you would not want to go back to wherever you were prior to encountering Christ. Now, let’s take a look at your post…but, please note - it is a fault to call ‘checkmate’ when such is not the case

… but I’m trying to determine if the Scriptures are clear that Jesus’ sheep can “never perish” - I think they are, so I think “mortal sin” is incorrect.

I am sure that as a Chess master you have experienced an opponent that made some moves you were not expecting - and then found yourself making mistakes. The winner of the game is usually the one who made the second to last mistake… Anyway, when you began you were confident of winning. In the opening game you then made a demonstration of that confidence. But, then, for a series of reasons… only seen in retrospect … you lost. What makes chess so enjoyable is the multiplicity of moves and the potential for learning from one’s mistakes and show real improvement as you gain mastery and recognition. Life, however, is not like that. All the learning we do is while the game is going. When time is called the Final Results are there for God, as our Judge, and us to see. That is my perspective.

Of course, you are right! Jesus’ sheep can NEVER PERISH! We really are on the same page here - after all if the reverse were true, there would be someone more powerful then god if they can take things away from god! The issue, however, is NOT will Jesus’ sheep perish – but, WHO are Jesus’ sheep. There hangs the discussion and, I would like to point out that I do not agree with your conclusion for the following reasons:

Beginning at John 13:31 we see Jesus preparing His Apostles for His Departure from this life. Peter claims he is superior to the others who will probably desert Jesus – but, Peter will die for Christ! Now, I do not think that anyone doubts Peter’s sincerity – it is just that Christ knew what was going to happen.

We, too, can boast that we are Christ’s sheep, that we have heard His Word, that we believe Him - and then string verse after supporting verse like so many pearls on a string to prove that we are saved and can never lose our salvation!. But – now take a look a look at the three stories in Matthew 25 – all of these people could have been in the OSAS crowd – just look at what they tell us about their good lives. But, Christ says that they have failed the only real test of their lives.

We will not KNOW (but we can HOPE) if we are Christ’s sheep until the end! And, while that may sound shocking – the issue orbits around our free will and the opportunity for us to deny God in the end. To deny the possibility of such an act is to deny free will – as Calvin does! I always found that a problem with the “1st Calvinist” … he freely chose to not only break with the Catholic Church – but, also refused to believe what Luther was teaching! He would have his own way, no matter the cost – and in so doing – demonstrated his total free will throughout!

The concern about predestination precedes Calvin. St. Augustine spent some time on this topic – here is a link that may be helpful to understanding how this great saint responded to the predestination/free will argument: ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM . Calvin, preferring his own opinion to that of others, rejected St. Augustine’s conslusion.

Now, OldProf you are demanding ‘…clear verses of Scripture…’ to disprove a point that you have dug in deep to defend. I have given them to you (previous post link with multiple Scripture sources that disprove OSAS, and Matt 25) – and – because you are content with your own view, you will simply reject these because they do not agree with your position. Am I correct in this or will you be agreeing with me … In many ways, you choose what will impact you. Ultimately, the Grace of God can be resisted by those who wish to resist it… that is the very essence of Free Will.

This comes from my belief that the best way to interpret Scripture is by Scripture. Thus, in my mind, Jesus teaches sheep never perish, so all sheep drawn by the Father will be raised up on the last day, and these other verses in the Bible that “seem” to teach a loss of salvation for the sheep have an explanation that does not contradict the sheep never perish verses.

The basis for much of the difficulty lies right here. There is no written document that interprets itself. This is simply not true. And, the proof of that pudding is that if it were true there would not be 30,000+ Protestant groups, assemblies, congregations, temples, tabernacles, brotherhoods and fellowships all claiming to be the Church Christ founded on Peter! Not only can Scripture NOT interpret itself – the idea that anyone and everyone can come up with their own private interpretation is not based in Scripture, leads to all kinds of obvious contradictions – and was even rejected by Luther!

Seriously, OldProf, you can not have it both ways – demanding ‘…clear verses…’ yet rejecting the clear verses that exist (e.g., Christ selecting Peter as the foundation of His Church [Matt 16], Christ telling us that His Flesh is Food INDEED [John 6]) Sola Scriptura (Luther’s unique contribution to the revolt) is doomed to failure because Scripture tells us (John 21:25) that not everything is contained in Scripture. Basing an argument on anything that clearly states it does not have all that there is – is doomed to failure. You see, for a Catholic, Scripture is very important – but, it is only one of the three legs upon which our Faith rests.
God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Please believe when I say that I am not identifying you as strictly unique in this area. What you are addressing is the very essence of Protestantism - everyone is free to do and say and think what they want about Scripture. So, when you say, “I don’t hold God to MY interpretation,” I would say you are half right - what you are doing is hold God (that is the illusion) to the Protestant interpretation.

The basic argument is: “…(Protestants) claimed that the Bible alone was the norm of faith and that its plain meaning was accessible to any believing reader, and the Catholic Church, which insisted that divine revelation came through two sources, the Bible and Church tradition, both of which could only be authoritatively interpreted by the hierarchy.” americancatholic.org/Newsletters/SFS/an0997.asp

Let’s take a look at interpretation and see a real difference between Protestant and Catholic approaches. Homosexual behavior was condemned throughout the Old Testament. St. Paul takes special aim at this sinful behavior in the New Testament. Now, think back just 100 years ago to 1912 … are you aware of any Protestant group NOT condemning homosexual behavior? I’m not. And from 33AD on, the Catholic Church has condemned this sinful behavior. But, look around today, and what do you see? Multiple Protestant groups have fallen in line with declaring that homosexual behavior is NOT sinful - in fact it is a life style that should be free from any interference. And this change comes from their interpretations of the Bible. The Catholic Chruch still condemns homosexual behavior as intrinsically disordered and sinful. There is a reason for the change - let me offer my persepctive.

As long as private interpretation (by the way, you know this was condemned in 2Peter 1:20) is the order of the day - then any interpretation is as valid as any other. And, if you do not like mine, then I will go and set up my own church and have people who agree with me to honor what I proclaim as the ‘valid’ interpretation. This goes a long way to explain why there are 30,000+ groups all claiming that there interpretation is correct and the others are all wrong. You, yourself, are in agreement here when it comes to the various teaching by various groups on Mortal Sin (" A few teach that a person can lose their salvation (RCC, Lutheran, Methodist, Free Will Baptist doctrine), but the majority lay out a very strong biblical case…")

Just as soon as you step back, you see this approach is a ‘house of cards’ - totally lacking in stability and at the mercy of every ''human tradition no matter how freshly minted. And when one card house gets knocked down (e.g., blessing homosexual ‘marriage’) someone else is there to construct another one! Error is about as close to infinite as we can get - Truth is one.

God bless

Angel, I agree - I don’t hold God to MY interpretation. However, there is “exegesis” - that is, what DID God say? He said His sheep “will never perish” (John 10:28), and I demonstrated the consistency of that with John 6:37-40.

I understand the example. Now think about it. If you see your child playing in the street and a car is coming, you WILL go out and pull your child off the street. God does that for the sheep, the elect of God. He “forces” them back on track. It is a very loving thing that He does.

The reason I gave the Romans 8 verses, specifically 8:39, is to anticipate someone saying what you just said, that God won’t step on a “believer’s” free will to leave the faith - to finally reject Christ. But Paul doesn’t allow that. Nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Paul leaves no doubt.

The true believer will abide in Christ to the end, even though he/she may, on occasion, fail to keep the commandments and fall into sin. And that sin will make them a most miserable sheep, and God will not just “let it go” - He will punish it on Earth. Can I prove it. Yes, Hebrews 12:5-11.

And this is also why I said we get the impression that when God begins a good work in us (“salvation is of the LORD” Jonah 2:9), He will complete that work (which is what Paul also writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6).

That is exegesis, my friend. I don’t have to interpret what is clearly stated.

Regards, OldProf

 

[thesmiter1]

OldProf, you have not addressed several of my posts. You did partially respond to one, but did not address much of the arguments I presented. You interpretation seems to be primarily based on John 10: 27-30. I, and my fellow Catholics posting, have presented quite ample evidence that you are interpreting this in quite a narrow way, with little regard for many other Scripture passages and thousands of years of proper interpretation and theology.