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OldProf
Guest
Yes, there are opinions on both sides - I agree. I find it all a very interesting discussion, but on the assurance of salvation, it is off topic. I feel no further need to pursue it here.
Regards, OldProf
po18guy
Well-known member
Can we agree that no one is actually saved until they are in heaven?
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Oumashta
Guest
I think this topic is getting quite old and is going nowhere. No one is becoming convinced of anything other than that we all have a lot of time and a lot of finger-typing power. We should leave him in the hands of Jesus and His Blessed Mother. If he has a hear to seek the truth, he will find it. No matter how well-reasoned our arguments are, nothing will be enough to convince him, besides the Holy Ghost of course.
I proclaim a new topic! The canon of the Bible! (it’s already been going on for a few pages actually)
I say that it doesn’t matter what books the Jews used, (even though they did use the Deuterocanonical books [ahem, the Dead Sea Scrolls]) the Early Church that came straight from the Apostles used them, and this list was confirmed during the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. We’ve always had these books in the Bible, and I see no other reason for their removal other than the fact that they didn’t fit the Reformers’ theology. It’s funny how Protestants often cite Revelation’s warning for adding anything from the book against Catholics, but often neglect that the same warning also goes for removing anything.
po18guy
Well-known member
Well, we need a new thread then.
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OldProf
Guest
I am sorry you think this topic is exhausted. I, for one, do not, and many of the verses I have used go unanswered.
Is Jesus simply wrong when he says His sheep will never perish? (John 10:28)
Is John wrong when he says you may know you have eternal life? (1 John 5:13)
Is Paul wrong when he says:
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)? Venial sins don’t lead to death, do they.
Is Paul wrong when he says:
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)?
There is the whole matter of imputed righteousness of Christ.
There is correction concerning verses taken in the wrong context, which is something I believe I need to be more diligent about responding to.
And many, many more.
Bottom line, the doctrine of salvation, which “assurance” surely is a part of, is a completely worthy subject to study in depth. I’m wondering what I still need to learn.
The biblical canon is important, and from your above arguments, it appears you are quite unfamiliar with the Protestant position (your argument above is very weak and easy to answer, but I’ll refrain), but really is a side issue that no doubt already has been spoken of many times in this forum.
Bottom line - I do not think we have finished with “assurance” arguments and evidences.
Regards, OldProf
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OldProf
Guest
I need to look at some of the verses you and others post to “prove” your point that no one can really ever have assurance. So, Philippians 2:12.
Let’s examine this verse (done earlier in post #141 p. 10). Php 2:12, in context, “St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit who is God” is writing to the Christians (Php 1:1 “to all the saints in Christ”) in Philipi and exhorting them to be lights in the world. Why, because of all the disputings and unruliness within the Church there (Php 2:3, 2:14), they were not being salt and light in the community as they should – in fact, their church should be blameless and unified (Php 1:27-28). These actions are unacceptable and invite the judgment of God upon them – not to the point of loss of salvation (Php 1:6), but as a punishment from God they should greatly fear (Php 2:12). We, too, today, should greatly fear punishment from God for our own sins, and that should prove to be a deterrent to our continuing to sin when we know Christ as our Shepherd. He chastens his own (1 Cor 11:28-32; Heb 12:5-11; 1 John 1:5-10) with the good purpose to straighten them out when they need it. That sounds very father-like, very Shepherd-like. We should examine and test ourselves to recognize our own sins, the sooner the better, and repent of them.
This context should be clear if you understand that Christ’s Sheep, the Christians, will never perish (John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.; Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ; Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.). My first post (page 3 #42) emphasized the meaning of the word “never” in John 10:28. It means never - not now or in any future time. A “strong” NEVER from our Lord, the Good Shepherd.
Next, 2 Tim 4:7. Yes, certainly true of Paul who was so active in ministry and discipleship. He was an exceptional saint - would that more should model his perseverance and zeal.
Paul also said:
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:29-39 ESV Biblegateway)
Jesus’ sheep never perish. The elect never perish. They won’t fall away, and they will never become an unbeliever, because nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8 provides a great study of this doctrine.
Finally, Matthew 24:13. Again, as above - the consistent actions of a sheep of Jesus is perseverance in the faith.
Sincerely, OldProf
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OldProf
Guest
Interesting. Is that the official Roman Catholic position? The RC theologian I studied with indicated that a person living in a state of grace was saved, but if they committed a mortal sin, they lost their justification and needed to be re-justified, that is, re-saved.
So, again, is this the official RC position?
Of course, I believe the Bible is clear that salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9 But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord. NKJV Biblegateway), and a person can be saved in this life before they enter heaven.
Regards, OldProf
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fhansen
Guest
Old Prof, I’m seriously surprised you’re still persisting in this-seeing as you’re more than sufficiently intelligent. There are plenty of verses in scripture-and they’ve been referenced over and over again, to support the position that assurance is not attainable to a 100% degree-and this should at least give one pause in thinking that scripture by itself can necessarily resolve this matter. Other such issues, baptismal regeneration for example, can also be-and has been- argued either way by competent opponents, perhaps even more competent than yourself. You’re making the assumption, made by many others regardless of their methodology-or lack of method for that matter- that you, individually, can come to a sure or at least adequate knowledge of the gospel message on your own, as if that’s the purpose of the Bible’s coming into existence. But it is not, it never was; that’s the role and purpose of the Church. Even with the Bereans, they first heard the message from someone else, from the Church, diligently studying to see if what they were told by Paul was true.
po18guy
Well-known member
For $8, you may obtain a catechism, if you do not already have one. It is also available online here. From the catechism, if it has not already been posted:
55 This revelation was not broken off by our first parents’ sin. "After the fall, [God] buoyed them up with the hope of salvation, by promising redemption; and he has never ceased to show his solicitude for the human race. For he wishes to give eternal life to all those who seek salvation by patience in well-doing."7
124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament"96 which hand on the ultimate truth of God’s Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God’s incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church’s beginnings under the Spirit’s guidance.97
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
Justification is dealt with in section 654, 1266, 1446, 1987, 1989, 1991-1995, 1994, and 2020. Have a read.
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adrift
Guest
Instead of being presumptive, Catholics have hope.
I am not understanding why the statement on salvation being from Jesus. Doesn’t everyone believe this who believes in Jesus?
po18guy
Well-known member
Romans 8:24 “We are saved by our hope”
To those who reject the Church, they seem to think that the Church, and not Jesus, saves us. They see the Church as a man-made entity that is somehow separated from Christ and which dispenses or withholds salvation at her whim. Of course, in choosing to reject Christ’s Church, in favor of the easily mis-read bible, they err and come to these false assumptions.
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OldProf
Guest
Presumption. I’ve heard that a few times in the early pages of this discussion. Arthur Pink wrote:
“Which is the more likely to promote pride and presumption: extolling the virtues and sufficiency of man’s “freewill,” or emphasizing our utter dependence upon God’s free grace? Which is more apt to foster self-confidence and selfrighteousness: the Arminian tenet that fallen man has the power within himself to turn unto God when he chooses and do those things which are pleasing in His sight, or the Calvinist’s insistence upon the declarations of Scripture that even the Christian has no strength of his own, that apart from Christ he can “do nothing” (John 15:5), that we are “not sufficient of ourselves” to so much as “think anything as of ourselves” (2 Corinthians 3:5), that “all our springs” are in God (Psalm 87:7), and that because of our felt weakness and acknowledged helplessness, God graciously keeps our feet and preserves us from destruction? It is just because our doctrine is so flesh-abasing and pridemortifying that it is so bitterly detested and decried by the pharisees.” —A. W. Pink (1886–1952) from his book “Eternal Security”
No. As I have been told on several occasions in this discussion, God WILL NOT mess with our freewill (just like Hollywood’s “Bruce Almighty” theology). So salvation depends ultimately on man. Freewill reigns. Christ knocks on the door, but man rules whether or not he or she opens the door and whether or not he or she perseveres in the faith.
I simply do not see biblical support for that idea. Yes, I DO see verses people will use to support that idea, but the context of those “proof texts” demonstrates otherwise. This is why I continually emphasize context of verses.
Adrift, please consider John 9 thru John 10:30, which fully develops the context of John 10:28 where Jesus says His sheep “shall never perish”. This is fully consistent with idea that he will raise his sheep up at the end. See how Jesus, who always does the will of the Father, responded to the crowd:
John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Context. Vitally important in our studies of Scripture. Paul said, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15 ESV Biblegateway)
Good words to follow. And the verses I’ve just used IN THIS POST are useful for discussion toward the understanding of “Salvation is of the Lord.” He gets the glory!
Sincerely, OldProf
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fhansen
Guest
It’s much more presumptous to presume that God has saved me for no reason relating to actual justice- and that He’s damned someone else for the same lack of reason, than that He would want me to respond, with whatever degree of freedom I have to do so-helping and drawing me in my weakness- to choose rightly without overwhelming or disregarding my will.
In fact, this is the whole purpose of our faith. God is after people who ultimately willingly choose to rise, to the extent they’re able, as Adam & Eve willingly* fell*-and this life, where good and evil are known combined with the grace of Gods’ revelation, is tailored to prompt me to run, like the Prodigal, towards the good as I come to recognize the true value of the supreme good, God, Himself.
He wants our wills involved, that’s the whole point -our wills are His prize. And the knowledge that we may need to strive towards reaching the justice He created man to have, with the help of grace won at Calvary, requires far more humility than the presumption that one is already saved!
po18guy
Well-known member
Presumption?
Is hope now presumption? Let’s take a quick look inside the bible: “We are saved by hope” ROMANS 8:24. Do you seriously accuse the Apostle Paul of presumption? He ran the race to its end. He did not presume. He hoped.
Arthur Pink? May he rest in peace! But, who made him an Apostle? You cannot use his words, as he is not in the bible. If you must rely upon him, it tends to prove the man-made nature of the doctrine. This is by your rules, not ours
For all its apparent complexity, AoS as a doctrine is razor thin, and man-made via the doctrine of private interpretation of scripture. Please read 2 Peter 1:20 anew. Much scripture must be twisted and/or disregarded for this doctrine to establish even a prima facia case.
Certainly, to you, AoS makes perfect sense (relying on the carefully selected verses that have been chosen), but for all other Christians who cling solidly to the Apostolic Tradition, it is considered dangerous, and to be rejected. The men who assembled this doctrine handed it on to the following generations. Its formulators bear the greater guilt, and for this reason, James wrote: “My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.” **James 3:1 **
To 1.2 billion living Catholics, to 300 million living Eastern Orthodox, and to hundreds of millions of other living Christians, AoS is unsupported by scripture. Personally, I see it as theological nonsense. I must, out of love for a brother in Christ, oppose this doctrine most strongly. My words may offend you. I will risk that, as I will answer in the seat of justice for my action or inaction.
The truth remains the truth, even if no one believes it. A lie remains a lie, even if everyone believes it.
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adrift
Guest
Am I to conclude from this that you do not believe man has free will?
So then there is no possibility for man to accept or reject Jesus?
That Judas betrayed Jesus because he was a puppet?
Adam and Eve sinned because, because why? If they did not have free will, than they could not sin. Wow! I must conclude that you really didn’t mean what you typed.
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Amamori
Guest
He said the complete opposite.Am I to conclude from this that you do not believe man has free will?
So then there is no possibility for man to accept or reject Jesus?
That Judas betrayed Jesus because he was a puppet?
Adam and Eve sinned because, because why? If they did not have free will, than they could not sin. Wow! I must conclude that you really didn’t mean what you typed.
Uh, maybe you were joking. ^^;
po18guy
Well-known member
Assurance of salvation (AoS) is not exactly Calvinism, but seems, Calvin-like, to assume that man has no free will, but does have the ability to know what only God can possibly know. Actually, Calvinism (which was not primarily developed by Calvin) teaches that we have no free will. God chose you, and by His Holy Spirit, may have forced you to post at CAF - even though you do not currently believe in Him. If He wants to, He will take you into Heaven, even if you don’t want to go. He’ll make you want to go. God, according to Calvin, is kind of like Don Corleone - He makes you an offer you can’t refuse.
Then, we see how many soon split-off from Calvin - one of the main players was Jacobus Arminius, but he believed that one’s AoS was contingent upon remaining faithful. Many, in turn, split off from Arminius, and others from them…you can see that the “reformation” was actually much more akin to the opening of Pandora’s box, introducing the concept of entropy to theology.
That’s just how silly it has become.
God, in the Catholic understanding and teaching, absolutely respects the gift of free will which He has graced us with.
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Amamori
Guest
Mhm.
He did say, though:
“God WILL NOT mess with our freewill … So salvation depends ultimately on man. Freewill reigns.”
Calvinism is quite interesting as a religious variety of hard determinism, as opposed to the more commonly cited materialistic variety. It shows that it is possible to reach the same conclusion using different patterns of reasoning and different assumptions.
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fhansen
Guest
No, he said that some, not himself, say that.
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