Assurance of Salvation

[OldProf]

If anyone is interested, see Post #72 - that was the initial posting of the evidence lists and some discussion about it.

I’m also curious. I’m currently involved in 3 Bible studies. Is anyone else in this thread studying the Bible in fellowship with other believers?

Regards, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

Permit me to speak for a moment from my heart.

1. My attitude toward the doctrine of salvation. It is THE single most important biblical doctrine because of the eternal ramifications - eternal life or eternal damnation for the human soul…
2. My attitude toward Roman Catholic’s. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Period… He matched right up with Evidence Lists 1 & 2, even though we did have some differences of theology. But I also have a disturbing observation. The Roman Catholics I meet in person do not attend Bible studies nor do they seem to have any interest in them. This includes some members of my family. If as Christians, “we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor 2:16), then why do they not hunger to know the Scriptures and know God? My Protestant friends are all about knowing God and knowing the Bible.
3. I studied for almost 8 years with a group of Jehovah’s Witnesses… (I’ve studied with Mormons, too… - I’ve spent about a year in studies with a few of them, and they were almost all Eagle Scouts). And I would tell Romney he is is NOT going to attain Godhead.
4. My attitude toward atheists. This is where I have spent the most time, 19 years, explaining the bankruptcy of that belief system. The challenge comes from the fact that degreed university professors have a great deal of pride which must be dealt with - by no means a simple process.

I am so very grateful to God that he has given us His Scriptures and His Church. Paul writes to Timothy, “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (2 Tim 3:15) From God’s persective, before the ink was dry in this letter by Paul, God knew this too was His Scriptures, regardless of when the Church accepted it into the canon. And we also know what the Church is from Paul who, speaking to the gentile believers in the Church at Ephesis, wrote,

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

There is considerable fellowship and Bible study in the reformed Church that I attend. Christ and His Word are taken very seriously.

God Bless, OldProf

OldProf, I respect your accomplishments (myself not being educated past some college), I respect your thirst for Scriptures (the Paraclete compels man to seek God not only in every-day life but also in His Word), I even respect your efforts in sharing the Word and your strong convictions… but you speak of measures that human take into consideration and you void the Holy Spirit by the way you hold on to your theology… the Masters of the Law (Sadducees, Pharisees, etc.) were experts when it came to Sacred Scriptures… but their convictions lead them to the wrong conclusion because their theology was wanting: God cannot fit man’s preconceptions!

…you cited 2 Timothy 3:15 and simulataneously denounced the Authority of the Church as though you’ve invented “thought;” …you err because you use your temporal skills to determine the works of the Holy Spirit and it is your own skill that convicts you as St. Paul is not speaking about the Bible as it is known to us but rather of the Old Testament Writings:

ask.com/wiki/Pastoral_epistles
Easton’s Bible Dictionary (1897) gives a date for the First Epistle to Timothy of around A.D. 66 or 67 and says of 2 Timothy, "It was probably written a year or so after the first…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel
Before the apparition of the first gospel, the gospel of Mark which was probably written around the years 65–70,[6] Paul the Apostle used the term εὐαγγέλιον gospel when he reminded the people of the church at Corinth “of the gospel I preached to you” (1 Corinthians 15.1). Paul averred that they were being saved by the gospel, and he characterized it in the simplest terms, emphasizing Christ’s appearances after the Resurrection

The New Testament in text form came after many years Oral Tradition (Teaching of the Gospel through preaching which took place along side with the development of the Church); Scriptures attest to this as they express not the Sacred Writings of the Apostles but the Gospel that is preached! …as a natural development the Gospel and Epistles and other New Testament Writings began to take shape; but along with the authentic writings of the Apostles heretical teaching infiltrated the Church… so what you, and most non-Catholic Believers, lack is Tradition (the actual historical development Chrurch Doctrine, inclusive of both Oral and Written Word); further, you (and those as you) reject God’s Holy Spirit by denouncing His involvement in the Church (ie: Biblical Canon); instead, you prefer to rely on your own intellectual achivements or that of scholars’/theologeans’ retrospective judgment, regardless of their inherent biased thought.

…as difficult as it may be for some to accept, Christianity does not exists in a vacuum–Christ Himself attests that the Chruch will not succumb and that He and the Holy Spirit Live in His Church till the end of Times.

I pray that the Holy Spirit brings you beyond your present understanding into the full Communion with the Body of Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thesmiter1]

If anyone is interested, see Post #72 - that was the initial posting of the evidence lists and some discussion about it.

I’m also curious. I’m currently involved in 3 Bible studies. Is anyone else in this thread studying the Bible in fellowship with other believers?

Regards, OldProf

Why does it matter? Why do you feel the need to tell us how many Bible studies you are involved in? Surely it is a good thing to be involved in Bible studies and fellowship, but following Christ involves us living the Gospel by our lives. This can be in every situation in life. St. Therese’s ‘Little Way’ reflect this perfectly. In every action she took, she attempted to live out the Gospel, realizing that perfection was not possible, but that through love of God, and God’s immense grace and mercy, we can live lives of love for others because of our love of Christ. This is NOT done through fear of judgement, but through love.

ewtn.com/therese/carmel.htm

Despite the fact that she lived such a loving life, and that she was so confident in God’s mercy, she NEVER doubted the Church and was never rebellious against its dogmas. She did not adhere to a OSAS doctrine, rather she was confident that, as children of a loving God, we can live the Gospel through His grace and mercy. This can be done by anyone, anytime, always. You’re method of judging a person’s relationship with Christ, it seems, depends entirely on reading the Bible and on fellowship. Pharisees were quite good at reading Scripture and being involved in the community. Also consider that to this VERY DAY, people are illiterate in many countries. How, exactly, are they to read the Bible? Perhaps through having it read to them, like at Mass, as has been done for thousands of years?

I can’t believe you would even ask this to determine whether someone is ‘elect’ or not. You can NEVER judge someone’s relationship with Christ on such a narrow view as Bible studies and fellowship. I don’t feel it dignifies a response, and it doesn’t effect in any way the Truth. Bible studies and fellowship are certainly a good thing, and should be available at every parish, but it is largely up to the laity to form these.

As for your ‘evidence list’, what do you say to OUR evidence, in which Christ proclaims that we MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS?

YOUR evidence list places ministry as important. What is your definition of ministry? Are we not called to live the faith by our lives? What if one evangelizes those they work with or live with? Do you really need to be involved in an official ministry to be a Christian?

As for religious involvement, everyone who attends Mass each week has that. And what about intellectual knowledge? Why is that there? We are called to understand our faith to the best of our ability, but we are not all called to be professors. Indeed, the Apostles were fisherman who didn’t make the cut to become scribes or pharisees. They understood the scriptures, and could link them to Jesus, but only four of them wrote it down. Paul was the most knowledgeable in regards to scripture, being a pharisee himself, but they were not all called to be as knowledgeable as he was.

I CANNOT BELIEVE you put assurance as one of your evidences of one being a Christian. Assurance to what? Assurance that Christ has died for our sins, and that He is Lord? Certainly. But NOT assurance of salvation. That is foolish. Was Paul any less Christian because he was working out his SALVATION in fear and trembling, and pummeled his body so as not to be disqualified? I could put assurance in the authority He gave His Church. That is assurance one is Catholic, but certainly not that one is saved or damned.

It is as simple as this, OldProf: if one has been baptized in the Trinitarian formula, one is technically Christian. Evidence of their Christian life will be seen in the way they live their lives. Certainly if one prays often (Scripture is included in prayer), attends Mass, and attempts to live the Gospel by doing at every moment what love requires (which includes being open to God’s grace and avoiding what leads to sin), they are on the right track. But we cannot judge if one is saved. All we can do is what Christ told us to do: have confident faith in His mercy and love, grow in our relationship with Him, and obey His commandments.

“Preach the Gospel by your lives, and when necessary, use words.” Who lived a holier life: someone on the corner, who is well versed in scripture, shouting damnation and holding up signs (like the people at my local campus), or a martyr in the 1st century Coliseum who knew nothing except what an Apostle told them (no scripture because it hadn’t been written, and they likely couldn’t read anyway), who said nothing except praises of God?

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

OldProf, I think you are misunderstanding the reasons for the Church labeling sins as mortal. It is NOT to put fear on people. It is to let them know what will lead to spiritual death, so that if they commit these sins, they may seek out confession. It is to inform us of sins to avoid (and we do so by God’s grace). God does not force us to stay in His flock. He has given us the green pastures to dwell in; they are His mercy and His love. His commandments come from His love. Why else would He give them to us? If we love Him, we will keep His commandments, and so abide in Him as He abides in the Father. His commandments are perfect love. Love never ceases.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi Tom,

I will accept this as good advice and tell you I appreciate your spirit in this discussion. It seems the crux of the issue is how can we tell that we are sheep. In the two “evidence” lists I gave, self-examination per Paul (2 Cor 13:5) is something we do really to determine that very thing. What is your opinion of the “evidence” lists?

I guess you would agree that the sheep, the elect of God (a good verse for that is Acts 13:48 in the message of salvation to the Gentiles), will never perish. When you examine yourself, can you not trust what John says in 1st John as well? I am a bit baffled by that.

I would agree with you (and the Apostle James) that good works provide evidence of our faith. They will flow from the elect, don’t you agree (Eph 2:10)?

Regards, OldProf

OldProf… the crux is that when Jesus was asked what “must” be done to inherit the Kingdom (Eternal Life), Jesus did not take out you list and offered it for his audience to emulate it: ‘…here, just follow this cheat-sheet!’

Jesus said this:

…follow me.’ (St. Mattew 19:16b)

…when we side-step His Authority, His Word, His Commandments, His Church and hold on to a theology of Salvation through “God said so,” we are not going to be recognized/acknowledged by Christ!:

21 'It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers! (St. Matthew 7:21-23)

…please stop holding on to a gimmicky mode of Salvation and make Christ your Resurrection and Life!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If anyone is interested, see Post #72 - that was the initial posting of the evidence lists and some discussion about it.

I’m also curious. I’m currently involved in 3 Bible studies. Is anyone else in this thread studying the Bible in fellowship with other believers?

Regards, OldProf

…as it was stated before, renumbering an issue does not shed any further light on it!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

You know … we really are in agreement in a lot of areas. No one is going to take Christ’s Sheep away from Him. I think we really are on the same page on that concept. And, I can see that this clearly written words have real meaning for you - and you are making that particular meaning known to everyone else. That is what dialogue is all about.

I am not really one for playing games - so, let me go to the heart of the matter. As I see it you want to take Christ literally - and, in all candor, I believe we all can. The issue that divides us knowing if we really are those beloved Sheep or not! As you know, the entire 25th Chapter of Matthew is devoted to addressing those people who really did not DO what was necessary when it came to working with the Grace of God - and in all three parables, all of the individuals who failed to follow Christ in word and deed met an eternally bitter end.

One of the items that has always struck me as odd (and your apparent evasion of this item has not helped) is in the way St. Paul addressed the ‘assurance’ issue that you have been promoting. Take a look at 1Cor 9 (especially at v 27) and just so you really do not have to work too hard on this … here is a link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/1_Corinthians_9 The Apostle to the Gentiles was quite convinced that he needed Christ every minute of the day - because on his own, he was perfectly capable of dropping the ball and becoming a ‘…castaway…’ . St. Paul’s statement are the opposite of what you have been promoting - and, I honestly think you need to address this issue.

My suggestion is really quite simple - stay with one topic and actually address it with more then your personal interpretation. Provide the evidence for where you stand on this issue - other then you just say so, or that you have a ‘systematic theology’ book and it says so.

Candidly, I can pretty much understand virtually all of those in the 16Century that revolted from the Catholic Church - except Calvin. You can almost measure his insecurity and lack of faith in mm of Hg! His denial of Free Will is profoundly distrubing for it essentially takes our God-given humanity away from us. So, maybe after you address this concern I have about St. Paul - you can spend some time and tell me about how he thought others were really damned but, somehow, he wasn’t - using his own criteria.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

God bless

Hi Tom,

I will accept this as good advice and tell you I appreciate your spirit in this discussion. It seems the crux of the issue is how can we tell that we are sheep. In the two “evidence” lists I gave, self-examination per Paul (2 Cor 13:5) is something we do really to determine that very thing. What is your opinion of the “evidence” lists?

I guess you would agree that the sheep, the elect of God (a good verse for that is Acts 13:48 in the message of salvation to the Gentiles), will never perish. When you examine yourself, can you not trust what John says in 1st John as well? I am a bit baffled by that.

I would agree with you (and the Apostle James) that good works provide evidence of our faith. They will flow from the elect, don’t you agree (Eph 2:10)?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf, … We have Faith and Hope that we will be counted as the Sheep - but, not the knowledge of assurance because there is far more involved then just hearing the word - or in even saying, “Lord, Lord!”. St. Paul tells us we must be doers of the Word (and, that means works! )

God bless

I think many commenting on this thread think, “OldProf just doesn’t understand the need for good works.”

Well, consider this. On the subject of “Good Works” the standard is set pretty high. Note:

Per Jesus in His Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Per Paul:

Ephesians 5:1-2, 1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

The standard is so high, you need to have the righteousness of God! (“and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith” Philippians 3:9; “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Cor 5:21). A very interesting doctrine of Scripture is the imputed sin to Christ, the sinless Savior, and the imputed righteousness of Christ to sinners, the elect ones.

Here is a TRUE example of a face-to-face conversation I have had (and similar ones on many occasions) with an atheist. We establish that this person, the atheist, is a good, sometimes a model, citizen. A = Atheist. O = OldProf.

A: “Well, I have two doctorates, one in engineering physics and one in mechanical engineering. I’ve taught for over 40 years and recently retired from the University of …” He goes on and on, talking about accomplishments, family, community respect, etc.

O: “Yes, you have lived a most respectable life and been an influence in higher education and a model for your family and friends. But you don’t believe in God, and specifically, you don’t believe in the Christian God of the Bible as I do. It really is a VERY reasonable faith. Why do you reject the biblical God?”

A: “I see no evidence for any ‘god’ and there would be nothing for him or her to do. Reality is what it is. REALITY IS!” (You should be prepared for a variety of answers on this, but by far it is “science” that is the stumbling block.)

O: “Well, let’s just pretend that the God of the Bible IS true as I believe. The Bible actually says that Jesus created you and literally holds you all together, that is, He sustains you for every moment you live. If you die in this unbelief only to find out that your were wrong, what do you tell Jesus when you sit under His future judgment?”

A: “Yes, we can pretend. I would tell him about my life and love for humanity and love for my family and …” (this can go on for a bit, but in the bottom line, “A” will tell Jesus that his good works in this world far outweigh his bad works or sins).

O: “Maybe you believe that on the scales of good an bad, your good far outweighs your bad, but I have bad news for you, that is not the standard of the Bible. Jesus says you must be perfect, and you’ve already said you aren’t. Did you know that?”

A: “Oh come on - nobody’s perfect! How can anyone get into heaven if that is the case?”

O: “Well, with man it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. Since you are not perfect by your own admission, you are actually in desperate need of a Savior. A Philippian Jailer, who was desperate because he thought all of his prisoners had escaped which meant he would be humiliated and executed, so he was getting ready to commit suicide. But the prisoners hadn’t left, and he asked the Apostle Paul, ‘What must I do be saved?’ to which Paul responded, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.’ And probably the most world famous Bible verse is John 3:16 where Jesus Christ said, ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ So if the Bible is true, isn’t that great news?”

This is what I call a “Works Salvation” conversation starter. You don’t let the Atheist get away with thinking that their good works will save them (why? because if good works are all that is necessary, then Jesus didn’t have to come or die!), and you tell them the standard is an unattainable perfection. The Atheist has probably never heard that. The next step is to demonstrate that science and the Bible actually compliment each other.

Really, it works!

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

I think many commenting on this thread think, “OldProf just doesn’t understand the need for good works.”

Well, consider this. On the subject of “Good Works” the standard is set pretty high. Note:

Per Jesus in His Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Per Paul:

Ephesians 5:1-2, 1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

The standard is so high, you need to have the righteousness of God! (“and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith” Philippians 3:9; “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Cor 5:21). A very interesting doctrine of Scripture is the imputed sin to Christ, the sinless Savior, and the imputed righteousness of Christ to sinners, the elect ones.

Here is a TRUE example of a face-to-face conversation I have had (and similar ones on many occasions) with an atheist. We establish that this person, the atheist, is a good, sometimes a model, citizen. A = Atheist. O = OldProf.

A: "Well, I have two doctorates, one in engineering physics and one in mechanical engineering… talking about accomplishments, family… etc.

O: “Yes, you have lived a most respectable life… But you don’t believe in God, and specifically, you don’t believe in the Christian God of the Bible… Why do you reject the biblical God?”

A: "I see no evidence for any 'god… (…but by far it is “science” that is the stumbling block.)

O: “Well, let’s just pretend that the God of the Bible IS true… If you die in this unbelief only to find out that your were wrong, what do you tell Jesus when you sit under His future judgment?”

A: “Yes, we can pretend. I would tell him about my life and love for humanity and love for my family and …” (this can go on for a bit, but in the bottom line, “A” will tell Jesus that his good works in this world far outweigh his bad works or sins).

O: “Maybe you believe that on the scales of good an bad… Jesus says you must be perfect, and you’ve already said you aren’t. Did you know that?”

A: “Oh come on - nobody’s perfect! How can anyone get into heaven if that is the case?”

O: “Well, with man it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. Since you are not perfect by your own admission, you are actually in desperate need of a Savior… Paul responded, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.’ And probably the most world famous Bible verse is John 3:16 where Jesus Christ said, ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ So if the Bible is true, isn’t that great news?”

This is what I call a “Works Salvation”…if good works are all that is necessary, then Jesus didn’t have to come or die!), …demonstrate that science and the Bible actually compliment each other.

Really, it works!

Sincerely, OldProf

…'K… I think we are getting there… the works of the Masianic Law don’t Save… doing “good works” don’t Save…

…so… what Saves is Believing in Jesus Christ!

OldProf, the Catholic Church does not Teach otherwise!

…but what does “Believing in Jesus Christ” mean?

…does it mean having the power to compel people to do things? …or the power to actually perform feasts beyond nature (healing, speaking in languages, discernment…)? …does it mean that a person who Believes is automatically separaged from the world and given a secured place in Heaven?

…this is where our theology differs… because the Church Teaches that none is Saved and that while Salvation (Eternal Life) is… well… Eternal, our security is not in knowing that Christ Saves and that in Him God Grants us Eternal Salvation… our security is in abiding (living) in Christ:

15 If you love me you will keep my commandments. (St. John 14:15)

…so while you rest on the knowledge that, in Christ, we are Saved and have Eternal Life… I rest in the knowledge that Christ is my Savior and that it is He who is my Eternal Salvation:

23 And not only that: we too, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we are groaning inside ourselves, waiting with eagerness for our bodies to be set free. 24 In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping – nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible. 25 But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence. (Romans 8:23-25)

…the Church does not Teach that “good works” Saves; the Church Teaches that Christ Saves! …and as the Apostles Taught, we persevere in confidence that in Him is hidden our Eternal Salvation:

1 Since you have been raised up to be with Christ, you must look for the things that are above, where Christ is, sitting at God’s right hand. 2 Let your thoughts be on things above, not on the things that are on the earth, 3 because you have died, and now the life you have is hidden with Christ in God. (Colossians 3:1-3)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Your last post was nothing short of remarkable. Honestly, I was astounded - how you managed to exerpt two sentences from my post - and one of them being the necessity that we be doers of the Word - and then writing at great length essentially claiming that the Catholic Church teaches salvation through works alone - which it does not. Here are two links that actually address the teachings of the Catholic Church - and, as you probably guessed, the ‘Assurance of Salvation’ is neither biblical or endorsed.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1821.htm

catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

But, allow me to redirect you from the real topic - and that is your ASSURANCE OF SALVATION - your claim that you are one of the Elect - one of Christ’s SHEEP - and that your salvation is not in doubt - a la Calvin. This is the issue that not only marks the topic of this thread - it is what you are being called to expalin - other then this is what you believe and that ends that.

Don’t get me wrong. You are certainly free (there’s that pesky Free Will issue again…) whatever you like. My position is that, since you are on CAF you are here to dialogue on this topic - and actually clearly answer the questions that those of us who have challenged you on have presented. I do not want to sound harsh - but, really, OldProf, you have merely made statements and dismissed the arguments of others - you have not actually attempted to clearly demonstrate what it is that supports your position (Calvin’s position) in the face of arguments to the contrary.

In reality, my impression is that you simply want to waltz around these issues claiming that your Assurance position is intact. Believe me, it really is in shreds - and I am sincerely requesting you to rise to the moment and actually address the arguments against the ‘Assurance of Salvation’ as Calvin - and later, you, hold.

God bless

I think many commenting on this thread think, “OldProf just doesn’t understand the need for good works.”

Well, consider this. On the subject of “Good Works” the standard is set pretty high. Note:

Per Jesus in His Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Here is a TRUE example of a face-to-face conversation I have had (and similar ones on many occasions) with an atheist. We establish that this person, the atheist, is a good, sometimes a model, citizen. A = Atheist. O = OldProf.

A: “Well, I have two doctorates, one in engineering physics and one in mechanical engineering. I’ve taught for over 40 years and recently retired from the University of …” He goes on and on, talking about accomplishments, family, community respect, etc.

O: “Yes, you have lived a most respectable life and been an influence in higher education and a model for your family and friends. But you don’t believe in God, and specifically, you don’t believe in the Christian God of the Bible as I do. It really is a VERY reasonable faith. Why do you reject the biblical God?”

A: “I see no evidence for any ‘god’ and there would be nothing for him or her to do. Reality is what it is. REALITY IS!” (You should be prepared for a variety of answers on this, but by far it is “science” that is the stumbling block.)

O: “Well, let’s just pretend that the God of the Bible IS true as I believe. The Bible actually says that Jesus created you and literally holds you all together, that is, He sustains you for every moment you live. If you die in this unbelief only to find out that your were wrong, what do you tell Jesus when you sit under His future judgment?”

A: “Yes, we can pretend. I would tell him about my life and love for humanity and love for my family and …” (this can go on for a bit, but in the bottom line, “A” will tell Jesus that his good works in this world far outweigh his bad works or sins).

O: “Maybe you believe that on the scales of good an bad, your good far outweighs your bad, but I have bad news for you, that is not the standard of the Bible. Jesus says you must be perfect, and you’ve already said you aren’t. Did you know that?”

A: “Oh come on - nobody’s perfect! How can anyone get into heaven if that is the case?”

O: “Well, with man it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. Since you are not perfect by your own admission, you are actually in desperate need of a Savior. A Philippian Jailer, who was desperate because he thought all of his prisoners had escaped which meant he would be humiliated and executed, so he was getting ready to commit suicide. But the prisoners hadn’t left, and he asked the Apostle Paul, ‘What must I do be saved?’ to which Paul responded, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.’ And probably the most world famous Bible verse is John 3:16 where Jesus Christ said, ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ So if the Bible is true, isn’t that great news?”

This is what I call a “Works Salvation” conversation starter. You don’t let the Atheist get away with thinking that their good works will save them (why? because if good works are all that is necessary, then Jesus didn’t have to come or die!), and you tell them the standard is an unattainable perfection. The Atheist has probably never heard that. The next step is to demonstrate that science and the Bible actually compliment each other.

Really, it works!

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[fbl9]

adrift, I posted this on 4 APR 12 in #72 of this thread, but here it is again.

According to Paul, we need to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). Am I a true Christian who can be assured of eternal life? From the Bible, I can see the following evidences regarding a person who says, “I am a Christian.”

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

If list 1 is true, but not list 2, then I cannot tell if that person is a professing Christian, or if they are Christian, but such a babe in Christ that they haven’t matured to list 2.

If list 2 is true, then list 1 will also be true. List 2 “fruits” will persevere in the Christian.

I don’t have any trust in my own “good works” that fall under the category of Eph 2:10. God prepared me for those, and it is not my doing my part or my cooperating with God as I work out my salvation. Christians do good works - not to secure salvation, but because of their salvation. “Professing Christians” can leave the faith because they were never known by Jesus (Matt 7:21-23) nor ever one of His sheep (1 John 2:19). They were not born of God (John 1:13) or born again (John 3:3) or a new creation (2 Cor 5:17).

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of his/her salvation. Will Jesus, the Good Shepherd (John 9:35-10:30), lose any sheep? No. Will God who began a good work in us (Php 1:6) quit on us? No, He will complete it. Will someone, chosen by God, ever actually be lost (John 6:37-40)? No. Can we have peace with God (Rom 5:1) through our Christian faith? Yes. Seems like the Christian can have an assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13 - a wonderful letter written to address that very issue - the themes in 1 John are happiness, holiness, and security).

A Christian has the Son and has eternal life (John 5:24 and 1 John 5:12). It does seem that this teaches we have “eternal life,” and not just “the possibility of eternal life if you can avoid committing a mortal sin and die in a state of grace.”

Having “mortal sin” hanging over our heads robs us of our peace with God and of any assurance of salvation. If you review the verses above, with proper context, then how can we not have an assurance that we have salvation, that we have eternal life?

Secure in Christ, OldProf

You say the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin.
But your intellect told you what when you sinned?

Repentance…it really doesn’t matter cause God will only punish us in this life which is, but green today wilted tomorrow.
You honestly beleive that sin has no eternal effect for yourself? Yet feel you need to repent because of loss in this life.
Jesus died for our sins and you feel that God should be satisified with merely temperol punishment.
The One without sin co-habitates one with sin.

Time of decision… what does this mean?

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

Your last post was nothing short of remarkable. Honestly, I was astounded - how you managed to exerpt two sentences from my post - and one of them being the necessity that we be doers of the Word - and then writing at great length essentially claiming that the Catholic Church teaches salvation through works alone - which it does not. Here are two links that actually address the teachings of the Catholic Church - and, as you probably guessed, the ‘Assurance of Salvation’ is neither biblical or endorsed.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1821.htm

catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

But, allow me to redirect you from the real topic - and that is your ASSURANCE OF SALVATION - your claim that you are one of the Elect - one of Christ’s SHEEP - and that your salvation is not in doubt - a la Calvin. This is the issue that not only marks the topic of this thread - it is what you are being called to expalin - other then this is what you believe and that ends that.

Don’t get me wrong. You are certainly free (there’s that pesky Free Will issue again…) whatever you like. My position is that, since you are on CAF you are here to dialogue on this topic - and actually clearly answer the questions that those of us who have challenged you on have presented. I do not want to sound harsh - but, really, OldProf, you have merely made statements and dismissed the arguments of others - you have not actually attempted to clearly demonstrate what it is that supports your position (Calvin’s position) in the face of arguments to the contrary.

In reality, my impression is that you simply want to waltz around these issues claiming that your Assurance position is intact. Believe me, it really is in shreds - and I am sincerely requesting you to rise to the moment and actually address the arguments against the ‘Assurance of Salvation’ as Calvin - and later, you, hold.

God bless

Just a quick response. I don’t believe “the Catholic Church teaches salvation through works alone,” and I never have. I believe the RCC teaches synergism and I believe in monergism (you can google “synergism vs monergism” for some definitional depth). I first read 1821 of the CCC in 1995 and was involved in some serious discussions in 1997/98 regarding that passage (it is a beautiful sentiment, but I believe theologically inaccurate) with a Roman Catholic who was a former Dean of Theology at a RC university. The other web site I have seen and read.

You’re right that I need to perform more due diligence to explain why some of the RC arguments against AoS recently posted are inadequate (and, I guess, quit the waltzing). I’ll try again this weekend. I know there are 4 or so others who have asked questions and I haven’t responded, so I’d also like to remedy that.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[adrift]

Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God’s grace in order to be regenerated.

If this is the definition you mean, than it isn’t supported by scripture.

 

[jcrichton]

Just a quick response. I don’t believe “the Catholic Church teaches salvation through works alone,” and I never have. I believe the RCC teaches synergism and I believe in monergism (you can google “synergism vs monergism” for some definitional depth). I first read 1821 of the CCC in 1995 and was involved in some serious discussions in 1997/98 regarding that passage (it is a beautiful sentiment, but I believe theologically inaccurate) with a Roman Catholic who was a former Dean of Theology at a RC university. The other web site I have seen and read.

You’re right that I need to perform more due diligence to explain why some of the RC arguments against AoS recently posted are inadequate (and, I guess, quit the waltzing). I’ll try again this weekend. I know there are 4 or so others who have asked questions and I haven’t responded, so I’d also like to remedy that.

Sincerely, OldProf

…again… you’ve said a mouthful… but you still have not understood that it is not a matter of your personal/group’s belief but a matter of Sacred Scriptures:

9 Only be careful that this freedom of yours does not in any way turn into an obstacle to trip those who are vulnerable. (1 Corinthians 8:9)

No, no Eternal Salvation for all… the Believers are cautioned to not hinder the Salvation of those who are weak in the Faith.

12 Everyone, no matter how firmly he thinks he is standing, must be careful he does not fall. …You can trust that God will not let you be put to the test beyond your strength… 14 For that reason, my dear friends, have nothing to do with the worship of false gods. (1 Corinthians 10:12-14)

:bigyikes:
St. Paul preaching that the Believer can fall?.. that the Believer must not resort to false gods but must remain firmly in fellowship with Yahweh God? :bigyikes::bigyikes:

15 So be very careful about the sort of lives you lead… for it is a wicked age… recognise what is the will of the Lord… be filled with the Spirit. 19 Sing psalms and hymns… singing and chanting to the Lord in your hearts, 20 always and everywhere giving thanks to God… Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Ephisians 5:15-21)

St. Paul warns about the wicked world and compels the Believer to remain faithful to God: no eternal security here!

1 Let us beware, then: since the promise never lapses, none of you must think that he has come too late for the promise of entering his place of rest. 2 We received the gospel exactly as they did; but hearing the message did them no good because they did not share the faith of those who did listen. 3 We, however, who have faith, are entering a place of rest, as in the text: And then in my anger I swore that they would never enter my place of rest. Now God’s work was all finished at the beginning of the world; 4 as one text says, referring to the seventh day: And God rested on the seventh day after all the work he had been doing. 5 And, again, the passage above says: They will never reach my place of rest. 6 It remains the case, then, that there would be some people who would reach it, and since those who first heard the good news were prevented from entering by their refusal to believe, 7 God fixed another day, a Today, when he said through David in the text already quoted: If only you would listen to him today; do not harden your hearts. 8 If Joshua had led them into this place of rest, God would not later have spoken of another day. 9 There must still be, therefore, a seventh-day rest reserved for God’s people, 10 since to enter the place of rest is to rest after your work, as God did after his. 11 Let us, then, press forward to enter this place of rest, or some of you might copy this example of refusal to believe and be lost. 12 The word of God is something alive and active: it cuts more incisively than any two-edged sword: it can seek out the place where soul is divided from spirit, or joints from marrow; it can pass judgement on secret emotions and thoughts. 13 No created thing is hidden from him; everything is uncovered and stretched fully open to the eyes of the one to whom we must give account of ourselves. 14 Since in Jesus, the Son of God, we have the supreme high priest who has gone through to the highest heaven, we must hold firm to our profession of faith. 15 For the high priest we have is not incapable of feeling our weaknesses with us, but has been put to the test in exactly the same way as ourselves, apart from sin. 16 Let us, then, have no fear in approaching the throne of grace to receive mercy and to find grace when we are in need of help. (Hebrews 4:1-16)

…again, St. Paul speaks of the need of the Believer to adhere to Christ because it is in Him that Salvation can be found–those who refuse to Believe will be lost!

…it is important to Listen to Christ when He states that not all who call Him Lord will enter into the kingdom of Heaven–yeah, in spite of claiming Him as Lord!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Adrift,

This is very consistent. Absolutely nothing in this vain human hope for ‘assurance’ is supported by scripture. This is simply a tradition of men.

God bless

If this is the definition you mean, than it isn’t supported by scripture.

 

[OldProf]

If this is the definition you mean, than it isn’t supported by scripture.

adrift, here is why I think you (and tqualey) are incorrect. Monergism is the idea that only God gets the glory for individual salvation. It is not a synergistic or cooperative act between man and God. It relates to our AoS subject in that we say it is a scriptural doctrine that a born again Christian cannot lose their salvation because God is not only the AUTHOR of our faith, He is also the FINISHER (or completer or perfector) of our faith.

In one sentence: God chooses the Elect and ultimately glorifies them, not losing any.

A little scriptural support, emphasis added, below.

Sincerely, OldProf

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:37-40 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

John 17:1-2 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.”

(Note coming up, in the same prayer by Jesus, future believers are considered and the imputed righteousness of Christ will make us perfect - this is sanctification.)

John 17:20-23 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.”

(Continued with Acts)

 

[OldProf]

(Continued)

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:11-14 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:1-9 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(Can a “dead” person do anything righteous? By what ability can the spiritually dead make the righteous decision to “believe in Jesus”? If they could, it seems that they could at least boast about this great decision they made.)

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The reason these verses are so meaningful is, when you examine them in depth, and determine the context, and maybe even some Greek word studies, it seems clear that a person could never say, “God, look at the great decision I made to follow Jesus.” No, all the credit and all the glory is to God and God alone. Truly we can agree that God is the Author and Finisher or our faith (Heb 12:2).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

OldProf,

…you cited 2 Timothy 3:15 and simulataneously denounced the Authority of the Church as though you’ve invented “thought;” …you err because you use your temporal skills to determine the works of the Holy Spirit and it is your own skill that convicts you as St. Paul is not speaking about the Bible as it is known to us but rather of the Old Testament Writings:

(clip)

Maran atha!

Angel

jcrichton, I know, I get this response every time. It is basic logic that if the Old Testament scriptures can make you wise unto salvation, then the combined OT and NT scriptures can also make you wise unto salvation. We have a much, much fuller understanding of salvation with the NT scriptures. And we also know that before the ink was dry on the letter written by Paul (and all other NT writers) that God certainly knew He had inspired them. That’s my thinking on it, and I cannot see any holes in that argument. We are not like Timothy who could talk with the Apostle Paul directly. But the NT we thankfully have. Paul did seem to really promote the scriptures, didn’t he.

I keep avoiding the “church” issues because this is the AoS thread, and the point is to discuss doctrine on AoS, of which the scriptures have a lot to say. 1 John alone provides a decent teaching on AoS. And OSAS or eternal security of the believer also relates to this topic, and my goal is to stay on topic.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Some quotes with references for St Augustine:

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinenewlife.html

If there is a RCC response to this article, please let me know. Augustine did significant systematic theology (what we would call it now) of freewill and grace. He would be called a monergist, and he had great influence (as I’m sure most of you know) through his writings well beyond his own death.

Regards, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

adrift, here is why I think you (and tqualey) are incorrect. Monergism is the idea that only God gets the glory for individual salvation. It is not a synergistic or cooperative act between man and God. It relates to our AoS subject in that we say it is a scriptural doctrine that a born again Christian cannot lose their salvation because God is not only the AUTHOR of our faith, He is also the FINISHER (or completer or perfector) of our faith.

In one sentence: God chooses the Elect and ultimately glorifies them, not losing any.

A little scriptural support, emphasis added, below.

Sincerely, OldProf

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:37-40 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

John 17:1-2 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.”

(Note coming up, in the same prayer by Jesus, future believers are considered and the imputed righteousness of Christ will make us perfect - this is sanctification.)

John 17:20-23 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.”

(Continued with Acts)

…again, the problem is not Scriptures… you can cite pretty well… the problem is definition based on interpretation… what you keep missing is “Believe.”

Yet, “Believing” in Christ does not mean that a person is aware of Jesus and God’s Salvific Plan… it does not even mean that a person is able to perform wondrous signs… Jesus defines it as:

If you love me you will keep my commandments. (St. John 14:15)

…it is not calling Jesus “Lord” or believing that there’s “Eternal Life/Salvation” or claiming Him as the source of Power…

…no matter how much we claim to belong to Christ or to be part of the “elect,” if we fail to obey Jesus Commandments Salvation will remain Eternal but without us!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

(Continued)

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:11-14 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:1-9 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience… 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(Can a “dead” person do anything righteous? By what ability can the spiritually dead make the righteous decision to “believe in Jesus”? If they could, it seems that they could at least boast about this great decision they made.)

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The reason these verses are so meaningful is, when you examine them in depth, and determine the context, and maybe even some Greek word studies, it seems clear that a person could never say, “God, look at the great decision I made to follow Jesus.” No, all the credit and all the glory is to God and God alone. Truly we can agree that God is the Author and Finisher or our faith (Heb 12:2).

Sincerely, OldProf

…intellect is not all… just look at the scholars, linguists, and “theologeans” that presently reject Christ in the name of “knowing” through their particular “system!”

While it is true that Jesus will not reject those who come to Him and abide in Him, allowing Him to Abide in them (St. John 15:1-10), it is also true that God will not force Salvation onto anyone who, even after knowing Him (Lucifer, Lucifer’s minions and the millions that as Jesus’ many disciples found the Truth and rejected Him), chose to reject Him (Isaiah 1:19-20)… it is the reason why so many passages warn against self-sufficiency and failure to achieve the Hoped end:

4 …“Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, a stranger or lacking clothes, sick or in prison, and did not come to your help?” 45 …Then he will answer, “In truth I tell you, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me.” 46 And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the upright to eternal life.’ (St. Matthew 26:44-46)

…not a single one of these rejects will be allowed to use an osas card!

Maran atha!

Angel