Assurance of Salvation

[StevenFrancis]

I hope this is the right place to put this thread

1. Did I do anything wrong by saying that I had assurance of salvation just to get out of my mother’s questioning, even though I didn’t mean it?

We shouldn’t bear false witness, of course, and you’re saying here that you didn’t mean it, so…well…Saturday at 3:00 PM, yes?

1. How do I calm my mother fears about me ‘being saved’ and ‘being sure you’re going to Heaven’ while staying true and explaining to her the Catholic Church’s teachings?

Thanks and God bless!

Well, we ARE saved by Grace (Eph. 2:8-9)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

But…In addition, we must also remember (you can go through the scriptures with Mom):

Romans 2:4-8
4 Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6* For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Matthew 7:21-23
21* "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22* On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Matthew 19:16 - 17
16* * And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

Matt. 24:13
13* But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matt. 25:34 - 36
34* Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35* for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

Luk. 6:27 - 36
27* "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. 31* And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them. 32* "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35* But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; * and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Rom. 2:9-13
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11* For God shows no partiality. 12* All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13* For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Rom 5:2
2* Through him we have obtained access * to this grace in which we stand, and we * rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God.

Rom 8:25
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Rom. 11:22-23
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

1Cor 9:27
27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Gal 5:1-6
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6* For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Philipp. 2:12 - 13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13* for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

See continuation in following post -

 

[StevenFrancis]

To OP.
Continued from previous post:

Hebr. 10:24-29
24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

James 1:22 - 25; 2:14 - 26 (she might not accept this one. Martin Luther didn’t like it)
21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.
2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25* And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

2 Peter 2:20 - 21
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

1 John 3:7; 5:3
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous.

Maybe turn it around, and ask her what these scriptures mean to her? That’s one way to approach it. This would help her understand your reticence about presuming salvation without trying your best to walk in the ways of the Lord, if nothing else.

Yours in Christ,
Steven

 

[Christine85]

I think you should be confident in your salvation if your living by Gods commands. Many of the Saints were… Eg . St. Therese felt with pure trust in God we can skip Purgatory by allowing the fires of Gods love to purify us on earth instead

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Not so fast old buddy… You got what you have been giving out. Your claim that biblically based answers are your response to why AoS is correct. My rebuttal is really straight forwad and very responsive - if you really believe what you say, then surely you believe these other clearly stated quotes - and all of them tie directly to the Catholic Church - the Church that gave the world the Bible as we know it today.

Serious? I’m as serious as a heart attack! You need to come to grips with several things - all of which you have simply dismissed. Adrift gave an excellent rebuttal to your AoS statements - and selective quotes that somehow miss the idea that we are responsible for cooperating with God’s Grace. Of course, we must believe in Christ - if we didn’t how could we possibly choose to follow Him - and willingly obey His Commands?

Now, about Judas. You seem to think he is not one of the elect. Is that what you are saying? Stop and think about this - the only ones we know who are definitely in Hell - are the Fallen Angels. No one has any definitive knowledge that anyone else is in Hell (and yes, that means, Hiter, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc - may have repented at the last moment and - like the Good Thief - not sentenced to eternal damnation.) Ultimately, you have no hard evidence of the final disposition of Judas - notwithstanding any comments made by any of the Apostles - because NONE of them said, “Judas is in Hell.” Draw your own conclusions - but, really, this is speculation at best.

So, let me see if I have this straight, OldProf. You expect us to believe in AoS because of biblical evidence - yet, refuse to believe the biblical evidence presented by others for thing you probably do not believe in. Interesting when the shoe is on the other foot, eh? But, just so you do not think that some how these statements simply cancel each other out - they really don’t! You see, your group has no definitive claim to the infalliible interpretation of Scripture. Basically, everyone is able to read and interpret as they will. Catholics have the Church to make the correct interpretation. And if you notice - Catholics have had the same interpretation of Scripture throughout history - none in Protestantism can make such a claim. The proof of this is all around you.

Now, go back and and give it another try - there are not only scriptural quotes I gave you, but genuine articles of faith.

Good bless

Hi Tom. So, this is your response? Seriously? If you tell me I’m wrong about AoS, and I say, “Here’s my argument.” And I spell it out, using the clear biblical texts which really do not require any interpretation, and then you give a non-response, I have a question. How will this avoidance on your part help me to see the errors of my ways?

Or, perhaps I have a strong argument for AoS, and maybe you didn’t realize it was THAT strong. So, what’s the verdict?

Do you see why someone can have assurance as long as they examine themselves to a biblical standard and take John at his word when he explicitly states, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)?

(I’ll forego addressing the other issues 1 thru 6 you bring up since, although interesting points of theology and interpretation, are off-topic.)

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Actually, you gave no evidence that voids out God’s Gift of Free Will to man, and that man is responsible for cooperation with God’s Grace (ah, did you ever check out Matt 25 - all those folks that thought they were the ‘Elect’ and wound up seriously disappointed!)

There are people who are going to heaven - and God knows who they are. But, we don’t really know who they are until the we meet our Judge.

God bless

No, my position is that the Elect will believe, persevere, and bear fruit. They are heaven bound. I gave the evidence lists to indicate my position.

Regards, OldProf

 

[adrift]

Here is what you have said:

I believe the RCC teaches synergism and I believe in monergism
Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God’s grace in order to be regenerated.
Monergism is the idea that only God gets the glory for individual salvation. It is not a synergistic or cooperative act between man and God.
I agree that God gets the glory for salvation.

You also stated

No, my position is that the Elect will believe, persevere, and bear fruit. They are heaven bound. I gave the evidence lists to indicate my position.

I find this contradictory to your previous statements. Either it is the Holy Spirit alone, which would not require one to belief or humans cooperates with God’s grace by believing.

You seem to brush aside scripture where Jesus said that works were necessary. You also ignore James when he states that we are not saved by faith alone.

Judas was a follower of Christ. Jesus says that He chose Judas. I do not find anything in the links you supplied that says anything different. Your scriptural quotes do not support that he did not believe in Jesus. He betrayed Jesus but that does not mean He didn’t ever believe. Otherwise, he could not have been called a traitor. Acts 1:17 For he was numbered among us, and received his portion in this ministry. States plainly he had been a believer. His suicide could not be explained unless he had believed.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Adrift,

I get the very distinct impression that we are trying to swept away with a deluge of scriptural quotes. Unfortunately, once examimed they are simply taken out of context and quotes that are not supportive of AoS are simply ignored.

The foundation for all discussions on this list is intellectual honesty. I can understand someone presenting what they have been previously taught and going to its defense. But, when a challenge is made and all one can do is generate a list on items that simply do not apply - I have to wonder, just what is going on.

One simply can not claim that ‘scripture provides the answers’ yet refuse to bellieve the answers provided by other Scriptures because they do not conform to the traditions of the men who formed the 16th Century revolt from the Catholic Church. It is like these characters that argue that the early Church always had ‘Solo Scriptura’ yet the Bible as we know it was not compiled until about 400AD - prior to that the Catholic Church had Sacred Tradition and the Teaching Authority Christ gave to Peter and the Apostles. (here are two links I found instructive on this matter:

philvaz.com/apologetics/num1.htm.

ewtn.com/library/scriptur/solascri.txt

God bless

Here is what you have said:

I believe the RCC teaches synergism and I believe in monergism
Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God’s grace in order to be regenerated.
Monergism is the idea that only God gets the glory for individual salvation. It is not a synergistic or cooperative act between man and God.
I agree that God gets the glory for salvation.

You also stated

No, my position is that the Elect will believe, persevere, and bear fruit. They are heaven bound. I gave the evidence lists to indicate my position.

I find this contradictory to your previous statements. Either it is the Holy Spirit alone, which would not require one to belief or humans cooperates with God’s grace by believing.

You seem to brush aside scripture where Jesus said that works were necessary. You also ignore James when he states that we are not saved by faith alone.

Judas was a follower of Christ. Jesus says that He chose Judas. I do not find anything in the links you supplied that says anything different. Your scriptural quotes do not support that he did not believe in Jesus. He betrayed Jesus but that does not mean He didn’t ever believe. Otherwise, he could not have been called a traitor. Acts 1:17 For he was numbered among us, and received his portion in this ministry. States plainly he had been a believer. His suicide could not be explained unless he had believed.

 

[OldProf]

Hi, Adrift,

I get the very distinct impression that we are trying to swept away with a deluge of scriptural quotes. Unfortunately, once examimed they are simply taken out of context and quotes that are not supportive of AoS are simply ignored. …clip

God bless

Tom, I believe you are speaking of me regarding Scriptures I have provided when you say, “once examimed they are simply taken out of context.” Obviously I DO NOT want to do that. I’m on CA to understand RCC arguments and correct my theology if it is in error. I know it grieves the Holy Spirit when I get the Scriptures wrong. If the Scriptures do not teach assurance of salvation, then I’m grieving the Holy Spirit. If they do, the you are grieving the Holy Spirit.

In my post #626 I answered your question, “So, please, explain why it is you think that you are one of the Sheep, one of the Elect and one who is ‘Assured’ of being in Heaven…” Here is my answer again. Please review it and help me to understand just what it is that I am taking out of context.

*Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Cor 5:17

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Why am I one of the elect? Paul tells me I’m a new creation, and that has been my sure experience. My thinking changed so radically. My desire to know God and study the Bible has come alive - I never gave the Bible any time before 1993.

Why am I one of the elect? John says I can know that I have eternal life. I’ve studied the doctrine of salvation, and the evidence lists 1 and 2 have significant biblical texts to back them up. The elect have true free will (restored by God’s grace), and they are Children of God. I can see biblical support for punishment and loss of rewards, but not loss of salvation. I can agree with Paul when he writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6. I can have a real peace, as Paul writes, “And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” Php 4:7*

Since I’ve studied AoS quite a bit, and I really do think the context of the few Scriptures I have provided above supports my AoS belief (and rejects your argument), please help me see the errors of my ways you indicate I must have. I’ll be very grateful for proper correction.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Here is what you have said:

I believe the RCC teaches synergism and I believe in monergism
Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God’s grace in order to be regenerated.
Monergism is the idea that only God gets the glory for individual salvation. It is not a synergistic or cooperative act between man and God.
I agree that God gets the glory for salvation.

You also stated

No, my position is that the Elect will believe, persevere, and bear fruit. They are heaven bound. I gave the evidence lists to indicate my position.

I find this contradictory to your previous statements. Either it is the Holy Spirit alone, which would not require one to belief or humans cooperates with God’s grace by believing.

You seem to brush aside scripture where Jesus said that works were necessary. You also ignore James when he states that we are not saved by faith alone.

Judas was a follower of Christ. Jesus says that He chose Judas. I do not find anything in the links you supplied that says anything different. Your scriptural quotes do not support that he did not believe in Jesus. He betrayed Jesus but that does not mean He didn’t ever believe. Otherwise, he could not have been called a traitor. Acts 1:17 For he was numbered among us, and received his portion in this ministry. States plainly he had been a believer. His suicide could not be explained unless he had believed.

adrift, since you are a synergist, then God and you have cooperated for your salvation when you die in a state of grace. Your good works and lack of mortal sin provided your part of the equation.

Thus, the glory for your salvation goes to both God, the initiator of your salvation, and you, the completer of your salvation.

Isn’t that true? (And their are a few Scriptures that, in context, reject that view.)

No contradiction on my part. Good works are certainly in my evidence list 2. The elect do good works in response to gifts of the Holy Spirit. First and foremost we are most thankful for eternal life as per “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23. What a fantastic and great gift to be grateful for and to motivate us unto good works! Let us share that GREAT NEWS!

You are completely incorrect when you say I brush aside or ignore Scriptures. Systematic theology doesn’t allow that.

Did you really read the links I gave? If Judas is in heaven, then apparently he was one of the elect, the sheep, and he could be possessed by Satan (which I think would go against Scripture), but somehow he was able to repent. If he is in hell, then he, being elect, being a sheep, can really perish, in which case we need to correct Jesus (John 10:27-28 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Isn’t it clear that Judas was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures that led to Christ’s crucifixion? That he was of the devil? That is the value of the links I gave to demonstrate the clarity of that argument.

What is the RCC infallible teaching on Judas???

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

It would be a pleasure to help you, “…see the errors of your ways…”. Actually, I thought I had done so - but, this is truly a rich field and there are more ways in which to approach this situation.

First the brief approach - the entire thrust of Jesus’ Message of Salvation is to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength AND our neighbor as ourself. The reason why this is such a powerful message is that it requires us to WORK (you just can’t wish your neighbor well and keep on going in your own way). We do not ‘work our way to heaven’ - but we do cooperate with the Grace of God to do those works of charity motivated through Faith. And, this is a process - not a destination.

And, since Christ and the Scripture Writers tell us this - there is a promise of salavation if we actually DO as God directs. Note this is quite different from saying, "I’m one of the Elect, I am one of the Sheep because St. Paul says I am a New Creation. I have salvation because I believe in Christ. And, this is where I put my belief in my ‘assurance of salvation’. The Scriptural rebuttal for this is really something that Calin knew but simply could not believe (he really did lack Faith - and wanted to be ‘assured’ - so, he came up with this approach to ease his mind. Now, he does not have to DO anything because it has aleady been done by Christ.)

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

And, then combine this with: Matt 7:22-23: “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”

Now, just role those ideas around for a bit - and we see people who have been saying, “Lord, Lord”, we see people who really did, “…prophesy in your name…” and really, “driving out demons” in the name of Christ not something easily overlooked. But, it does not stop there - here we also have these people doing, ‘…might deeds…’ admittedly not very specific - but, the impression I have is that these ‘mighty deeds’ would get anyone’s attention. Ah, but you know there is not even a hint of Calvin’s ‘AoS’ misapplied doctrine.

Don’t stop there - we need to keep on going. Those who claim that they are saved simply because of the Grace of God - being the ‘Elect’ and that took care of it all - have misunderstood the entire message of salvation! (Oh, and by the way, too bad for those damned souls who are not convinced that they are the ‘Elect’!) This is no minor error - but one where we will be called to task for this presumption. If we are to comply with Christ’s directives we must love God and our neighbor. This means keeping the commands Christ has given to us and doing the Works of Mercy towards our neighbor. And, we do this with the full Faith and knowledge that we really do have Free Will and we have it within our wounded selves to reject God and His Grace and fail to persevere to the end - as Christ tells us to do. (Matt 24:13) These are NOT the words of comfort that one who is claiming to the numbered amongst the ‘Elect’ would gladly embrace. Actually Matt 24 simply stands ‘AoS’ on its head, and identifies it for the fraud it is.

Of course you are familiar with James 2:24 - where he tells us that Faith without works is dead. James is not criticizing Faith - he is telling those who think this is enough that they are sadly mistaken.

And finally, since you like St, Paul - let’s move to 1Cor 9:27 - where this great saint is concerned about freely failing to continue with God’s Grace - and becoming a castaway. Hardly the Scriptures that you have used to bolster this ‘AoS’ tradition of men (namely Calvin and those who followed after this man).

Now, it you really want to do something - stop addressing what others have said are inadequate, incomplete or misapplied Scriptures - and address what I have presented to you. Here is the heart of the argument - please if you want to know what is going on - just address it and we can see what develops.

God bless

Tom, I believe you are speaking of me regarding Scriptures I have provided when you say, “once examimed they are simply taken out of context.” Obviously I DO NOT want to do that. I’m on CA to understand RCC arguments and correct my theology if it is in error. I know it grieves the Holy Spirit when I get the Scriptures wrong. If the Scriptures do not teach assurance of salvation, then I’m grieving the Holy Spirit. If they do, the you are grieving the Holy Spirit.

In my post #626 I answered your question, “So, please, explain why it is you think that you are one of the Sheep, one of the Elect and one who is ‘Assured’ of being in Heaven…” Here is my answer again. Please review it and help me to understand just what it is that I am taking out of context.

Since I’ve studied AoS quite a bit, and I really do think the context of the few Scriptures I have provided above supports my AoS belief (and rejects your argument), please help me see the errors of my ways you indicate I must have. I’ll be very grateful for proper correction.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[adrift]

adrift, since you are a synergist, then God and you have cooperated for your salvation when you die in a state of grace. Your good works and lack of mortal sin provided your part of the equation.

I have never heard of this term until you posted it. It is not in Catholic thought. I do no accept it. It is inaccurate in what I believe.

Thus, the glory for your salvation goes to both God, the initiator of your salvation, and you, the completer of your salvation.

Isn’t that true? (And their are a few Scriptures that, in context, reject that view.)

No this is not accurate.
Here from the Catholic Dictionary is what I believe

Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.

The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.)

Only God can give grace. He allows us a free will to either accept or reject it.

No contradiction on my part. Good works are certainly in my evidence list 2. The elect do good works in response to gifts of the Holy Spirit. First and foremost we are most thankful for eternal life as per “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23. What a fantastic and great gift to be grateful for and to motivate us unto good works! Let us share that GREAT NEWSYou are completely incorrect when you say I brush aside or ignore Scriptures. Systematic theology doesn’t allow that.!

Of course there is a contradiction. You claim that no matter what you do you are saved you don’t need to do good works but that isn’t scriptural. Exactly what part of your list shows good works?

Did you really read the links I gave? If Judas is in heaven, then apparently he was one of the elect, the sheep, and he could be possessed by Satan (which I think would go against Scripture), but somehow he was able to repent. If he is in hell, then he, being elect, being a sheep, can really perish, in which case we need to correct Jesus (John 10:27-28 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Isn’t it clear that Judas was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures that led to Christ’s crucifixion? That he was of the devil? That is the value of the links I gave to demonstrate the clarity of that argument.

I read your tedious links. We can not judge what happened to Judas. We have some indications but only God can judge. That he was once a follower and believer cannot be disputed. I am reposting the following perhaps you missed it.

Acts 1:17 For he was numbered among us, and received his portion in this ministry. States plainly he had been a believer. His suicide could not be explained unless he had believed.

Your misinterpretation of the sheep is what is causing you to not understand. Your links were opinions some I agreed with others:shrug: This is a parable. A parable teaches a spiritual lesson. Who was Jesus talking to? The Jews. They were not understanding Him. They were not understanding that He is the Way. They wanted to know if He was the savior. He used the parable to answer them.

What is the RCC infallible teaching on Judas???

The only teaching is from the bible. That he was an apostle and he betrayed Jesus. Our theologies are different. That is why you speak in a way that is foreign to me. I do know that you can loose salvation as long as the race isn’t over. You have provided nothing to dispute this.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

I just wish to address two items in your post to Adrift:

You are completely incorrect when you say I brush aside or ignore Scriptures. Systematic theology doesn’t allow that.

What is the RCC infallible teaching on Judas???

Regards, OldProf

In my opinion you have been brushing aside and ignoring the Scriptures that have been provided challenging ‘AoS’. I realize you do not care for this and this goes counter to what you believe and have studied. All the more reason for actually explaining why the challenges need to be addressed - and just not with another page or so of assorted and mis-applied Scriptural quotes.

The concept of infallible Catholic teaching is not a simple matter - and, you really do deserve the most accurate explanation (at least what I can find - if anyone has a better one, please pass it on). Here is a link - and there are many embeded hyperlinks that will give you still more information. If you want to learn about the Catholic Faith - then this is the kind of source that will be helpful.

There is no infallible teaching on Judas per se. You are free to believe whatever you wish - and basically, there are only two options: Judas goes to Heaven or he goes to Hell. And, that is it. None of us have any knowledge about who is in Hell - except what Christ told us: a third of the Heavenly Host followed Lucifer into damnation. Those are the only ones we know who are in Hell. Considering what we are trying to accomplish, speculation on Judas should be much farther down the list of items you should be addressing. At least in my opinon. The ‘heavy lifting’ lies in addressing the items that have been provided that challenge ‘AoS’ - and that means not merely repeating yourself.
socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/11/where-can-one-find-list-of-infallible.html

God bless

 

[fbl9]

adrift, since you are a synergist, then God and you have cooperated for your salvation when you die in a state of grace. Your good works and lack of mortal sin provided your part of the equation.

Thus, the glory for your salvation goes to both God, the initiator of your salvation, and you, the completer of your salvation.

ect that view.)

No contradiction on my part. Good works are certainly in my evidence list 2.

Regards, OldProf

Oldprof how is you ar able to repent of your sin(s). Are you forced to out of fear of loss in this life? Or do you it out of love for God? How are you to judge which reason for repentance is satifactory to God?

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

It would be a pleasure to help you, “…see the errors of your ways…”. Actually, I thought I had done so - but, this is truly a rich field and there are more ways in which to approach this situation.

First the brief approach - the entire thrust of Jesus’ Message of Salvation is to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength AND our neighbor as ourself. The reason why this is such a powerful message is that it requires us to WORK (you just can’t wish your neighbor well and keep on going in your own way). We do not ‘work our way to heaven’ - but we do cooperate with the Grace of God to do those works of charity motivated through Faith. And, this is a process - not a destination.

And, since Christ and the Scripture Writers tell us this - there is a promise of salavation if we actually DO as God directs. Note this is quite different from saying, "I’m one of the Elect, I am one of the Sheep because St. Paul says I am a New Creation. I have salvation because I believe in Christ. And, this is where I put my belief in my ‘assurance of salvation’. The Scriptural rebuttal for this is really something that Calin knew but simply could not believe (he really did lack Faith - and wanted to be ‘assured’ - so, he came up with this approach to ease his mind. Now, he does not have to DO anything because it has aleady been done by Christ.)

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

And, then combine this with: Matt 7:22-23: “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’”

Now, just role those ideas around for a bit - and we see people who have been saying, “Lord, Lord”, we see people who really did, “…prophesy in your name…” and really, “driving out demons” in the name of Christ not something easily overlooked. But, it does not stop there - here we also have these people doing, ‘…might deeds…’ admittedly not very specific - but, the impression I have is that these ‘mighty deeds’ would get anyone’s attention. Ah, but you know there is not even a hint of Calvin’s ‘AoS’ misapplied doctrine.

Don’t stop there - we need to keep on going. Those who claim that they are saved simply because of the Grace of God - being the ‘Elect’ and that took care of it all - have misunderstood the entire message of salvation! (Oh, and by the way, too bad for those damned souls who are not convinced that they are the ‘Elect’!) This is no minor error - but one where we will be called to task for this presumption. If we are to comply with Christ’s directives we must love God and our neighbor. This means keeping the commands Christ has given to us and doing the Works of Mercy towards our neighbor. And, we do this with the full Faith and knowledge that we really do have Free Will and we have it within our wounded selves to reject God and His Grace and fail to persevere to the end - as Christ tells us to do. (Matt 24:13) These are NOT the words of comfort that one who is claiming to the numbered amongst the ‘Elect’ would gladly embrace. Actually Matt 24 simply stands ‘AoS’ on its head, and identifies it for the fraud it is.

Of course you are familiar with James 2:24 - where he tells us that Faith without works is dead. James is not criticizing Faith - he is telling those who think this is enough that they are sadly mistaken.

And finally, since you like St, Paul - let’s move to 1Cor 9:27 - where this great saint is concerned about freely failing to continue with God’s Grace - and becoming a castaway. Hardly the Scriptures that you have used to bolster this ‘AoS’ tradition of men (namely Calvin and those who followed after this man).

Now, it you really want to do something - stop addressing what others have said are inadequate, incomplete or misapplied Scriptures - and address what I have presented to you. Here is the heart of the argument - please if you want to know what is going on - just address it and we can see what develops.

God bless

Will do, but for completeness, what about the context of this verse:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

I would fit this verse.

Has this ever been addressed by you? If so, when and I’ll take that into account on my response. If not, please address this verse since it is a main AoS verse.

Thanks, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

I meant to say that 1 John 5:13 is a verse that would fit in with my response. It is a primary AoS verse that I do not recall seeing addressed. Tom, can you address it? Did I miss something?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

It would be a pleasure to help you, “…see the errors of your ways…”. Actually, I thought I had done so - but, this is truly a rich field and there are more ways in which to approach this situation.

First the brief approach - the entire thrust of Jesus’ Message of Salvation is to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength AND our neighbor as ourself. The reason why this is such a powerful message is that it requires us to WORK (you just can’t wish your neighbor well and keep on going in your own way). We do not ‘work our way to heaven’ - but we do cooperate with the Grace of God to do those works of charity motivated through Faith. And, this is a process - not a destination. Snip …
God bless

First Paragraph Response: I’ll run through my thinking on this so you know how I see what you write.

Okay, Tom, I would agree that we are “to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength AND our neighbor as ourself” which is Jesus’ summation of following the commandments (Mark 12:30-31), but I have to ask how? Aren’t we described as “dead”? What ability does the dead man have?

“But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.” Matt 8:22. Obviously meaning let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead.

Paul then says, “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” (Eph 2:1-4)

Who is Paul referring to? Read Eph 1 - those chosen by God to which Paul says, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:13-14) So we know Paul writes to Christians who were chosen by God who believe and are sealed by the Holy Spirit but who were once “dead” - meaning spritually dead.

Does the “dead man” have ANY ability to do the righteous act of following the commandments? Paul says, “No.” In fact, he says it emphatically when speaking about the natural man in the first part of Romans. Per Romans 3:9-12 we have Paul’s testimony that no one does anything good or righteous. And that is the problem of the spiritually dead person. We need righteousness. Works are not going to accomplish that (Romans 3:20), but the righteousness of God comes to the believer by faith (Romans 3:21-26).

Faith comes from God’s grace per Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

So God does a work in us that takes us from spiritual death to spiritual life. Some examples:

Gentiles: Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

Lydia: Acts 16:14 “One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”

You say it’s a process. But I think it’s a birth. Some examples:

John 1:12-13 “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

So, from the Scriptures, I cannot see how a “dead” person can make a righteous decision to follow the commandments and have faith in Jesus without being regenerated by God, meaning given spiritual life by God. This is why Jesus said,

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:37-40

Those are some of my thoughts. More to come as I continue to respond to more of your post. I’m trying to make sure I cover all the bases you seem to think I miss.

Regards, OldProf

 

[Ubenedictus]

It seems u are stuck in justification.

First Paragraph Response: I’ll run through my thinking on this so you know how I see what you write.

Okay, Tom, I would agree that we are “to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength AND our neighbor as ourself” which is Jesus’ summation of following the commandments (Mark 12:30-31), but I have to ask how? Aren’t we described as “dead”? What ability does the dead man have?

“But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.” Matt 8:22. Obviously meaning let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead.

Paul then says, “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” (Eph 2:1-4)

ok,

Who is Paul referring to? Read Eph 1 - those chosen by God to which Paul says, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:13-14) So we know Paul writes to Christians who were chosen by God who believe and are sealed by the Holy Spirit but who were once “dead” - meaning spritually dead.

Does the “dead man” have ANY ability to do the righteous act of following the commandments? Paul says, “No.” In fact, he says it emphatically when speaking about the natural man in the first part of Romans. Per Romans 3:9-12 we have Paul’s testimony that no one does anything good or righteous. And that is the problem of the spiritually dead person.

it seems in essence u are saying all that happened in the old testament were all bad. I dont believe that. Yes i believe we were born spiritually dead i.e separated from the source of spiritual life and so unless aided by God we cannot do right.

We need righteousness. Works are not going to accomplish that (Romans 3:20), but the righteousness of God comes to the believer by faith (Romans 3:21-26).

i would prefer if you were specific, the work OF THE LAW couldnt accomplish righteousness it comes by faith. And james let me know that faith is active by works and completed by same jm2:23. After faith the shuld come that which activates and completes. Abramham is justified by faith and by his work according to same faith his faith is completed.

Faith comes from God’s grace per Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

yeah!

So God does a work in us that takes us from spiritual death to spiritual life. Some examples:
Gentiles: Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
Lydia: Acts 16:14 “One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”

the qestion is, is man totally ignorant and is he in some form of intoxication wen grace works in him?

 

[Ubenedictus]

Faith comes from God’s grace per Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

So God does a work in us that takes us from spiritual death to spiritual life. Some examples:

Gentiles: Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

appointed,

Lydia: Acts 16:14 “One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”

God opened her heart, i will like to add jn16:8, it shows another work of God to convince. In all these verse God aids the sinner, first he had already appointed him, he opens his heart and lastly convinces him. It is in in line with these passages that the council of trent talks of a “predisposing grace” to help man “assent” to the truth of God. That is why the council of trent identifies God’s grace in our justification lam 5:21 and also our assent to grace zach 1:3. He it is who converts us and we in turn must turn to him, if not i don’t see any justification. Acts 2 shows the picture, thru d work of the holy spirit they were “cut to the heart” act2:37, and they responded by asking d next step and doing it, that is why acts2:41 says “those who recieved the word were baptised” the word has to be recieved. It can also be rejected and only those who recieved it were “added to their number”

You say it’s a process. But I think it’s a birth. Some examples:
John 1:12-13 “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

the birth talked about above is simply d initial justification, it isnt even talking yet about santification. Do u need passages that describe salvation as a process?

So, from the Scriptures, I cannot see how a “dead” person can make a righteous decision to follow the commandments and have faith in Jesus without being regenerated by God, meaning given spiritual life by God. This is why Jesus said,

just check act 2 and u will find “dead” men assisted by grace and the word of God making a righteous decision to follow christ even before they are their sins are washed away and the holy spirit recieved acts2:38,22:6, and saved (1pt3:21) in “the wash of regeneration”(titus 3:5)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:37-40

and yet john 17:12 not one is lost but the one who is headed for distruction.
Peace,
ubenedictus

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

I am growing both older and more weary. I no longer see this as my failure at clear communications. I think some effort at clear understanding needs to be demonstrated.

For example - I took your lengthy post and divided it into two unequal parts:

1.) Mark 12 where Christ explains to the Teacher of the Law what must be done for salvation - and the Teacher understood and repeated it back to Christ. And, Christ noted the sincerity of this man and told him he was not far from the Kingdom!

2.) All these other and most numerous Scripture Quotes trying to prove Christ was wrong!

No one can have it both ways - either you believe Christ’s words or you don’t. You just can’t believe some of them and reject others that don’t fit Calvin’s ‘AoS’. My suggestion is that you not only embrace Mark 12 - but, in your eagerness to search the Scriptures you will find much support for Christ’s words of salvation - and no words that claim, “I’m saved and you’re not!”

God bless

First Paragraph Response: I’ll run through my thinking on this so you know how I see what you write.

Okay, Tom, I would agree that we are “to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength AND our neighbor as ourself” which is Jesus’ summation of following the commandments (Mark 12:30-31), but I have to ask how? Aren’t we described as “dead”? What ability does the dead man have?

“But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.” Matt 8:22. Obviously meaning let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead.

Paul then says, “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” (Eph 2:1-4)

Who is Paul referring to? Read Eph 1 - those chosen by God to which Paul says, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:13-14) So we know Paul writes to Christians who were chosen by God who believe and are sealed by the Holy Spirit but who were once “dead” - meaning spritually dead.

Does the “dead man” have ANY ability to do the righteous act of following the commandments? Paul says, “No.” In fact, he says it emphatically when speaking about the natural man in the first part of Romans. Per Romans 3:9-12 we have Paul’s testimony that no one does anything good or righteous. And that is the problem of the spiritually dead person. We need righteousness. Works are not going to accomplish that (Romans 3:20), but the righteousness of God comes to the believer by faith (Romans 3:21-26).

Faith comes from God’s grace per Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

So God does a work in us that takes us from spiritual death to spiritual life. Some examples:

Gentiles: Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

Lydia: Acts 16:14 “One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”

You say it’s a process. But I think it’s a birth. Some examples:

John 1:12-13 “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

So, from the Scriptures, I cannot see how a “dead” person can make a righteous decision to follow the commandments and have faith in Jesus without being regenerated by God, meaning given spiritual life by God. This is why Jesus said,

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:37-40

Those are some of my thoughts. More to come as I continue to respond to more of your post. I’m trying to make sure I cover all the bases you seem to think I miss.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ubenedictus,

Good post!

God bless

appointed,

God opened her heart, i will like to add jn16:8, it shows another work of God to convince. In all these verse God aids the sinner, first he had already appointed him, he opens his heart and lastly convinces him. It is in in line with these passages that the council of trent talks of a “predisposing grace” to help man “assent” to the truth of God. That is why the council of trent identifies God’s grace in our justification lam 5:21 and also our assent to grace zach 1:3. He it is who converts us and we in turn must turn to him, if not i don’t see any justification. Acts 2 shows the picture, thru d work of the holy spirit they were “cut to the heart” act2:37, and they responded by asking d next step and doing it, that is why acts2:41 says “those who recieved the word were baptised” the word has to be recieved. It can also be rejected and only those who recieved it were “added to their number”
the birth talked about above is simply d initial justification, it isnt even talking yet about santification. Do u need passages that describe salvation as a process?

just check act 2 and u will find “dead” men assisted by grace and the word of God making a righteous decision to follow christ even before they are their sins are washed away and the holy spirit recieved acts2:38,22:6, and saved (1pt3:21) in “the wash of regeneration”(titus 3:5)

and yet john 17:12 not one is lost but the one who is headed for distruction.
Peace,
ubenedictus