Assurance of Salvation

[Philthy]

Lunch is almost over, so I’ll close with this.

“I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life.” (1 John 5:13 Amplified Bible)
If I am not doing what the previous verses of 1 John tell me, I had better examine myself! But if I am, then I can have this blessed assurance of my salvation. My joy (and yours too) can be full!
Regards, OldProf

I have four questions which I would request be answered either in the affirmative (yes) or negative (no) followed by any brief explanation you believe is needed to qualify your answer.
Question 1: Do you believe the term “eternal” used in the above 1st John quote is a reference to a quality of life?
Question 2: Do you believe the term “eternal” used in the above 1st John quote is a reference to a quantity (ie duration) of life?
Question 3: Do you believe that the “assurance” spoken of in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - to the present moment (of the listener)?
Question 4: Do you believe the “assurance” spoken of in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - to all future moments (of the listener)?
Question 5: Do you believe that if has “this blessed assurance of salvation” that that means they will - of necessity - go to Heaven when they die?

Remember - please answer with a Y or N first, followed by any qualifications you feel are needed to explain your answer more fully.

Blessings!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Philthy,

Do you really think you are going to get one word answers … much less, one-word ones(Y/N)?!

I just do not see it happening! I mean, after all … there is no wiggle room and such responses (especially laid out in this way) identify that a clear and logically progressive pattern exists!!

Besides, I’m still awaiting that brief summary of Hebrews 6…

God bless

I have four questions which I would request be answered either in the affirmative (yes) or negative (no) followed by any brief explanation you believe is needed to qualify your answer.
Question 1: Do you believe the term “eternal” used in the above 1st John quote is a reference to a quality of life?
Question 2: Do you believe the term “eternal” used in the above 1st John quote is a reference to a quantity (ie duration) of life?
Question 3: Do you believe that the “assurance” spoken of in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - to the present moment (of the listener)?
Question 4: Do you believe the “assurance” spoken of in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - to all future moments (of the listener)?
Question 5: Do you believe that if has “this blessed assurance of salvation” that that means they will - of necessity - go to Heaven when they die?

Remember - please answer with a Y or N first, followed by any qualifications you feel are needed to explain your answer more fully.

Blessings!

 

[paul_c]

Hi, PaulC,

You can moonlight for the Cliff’s Notes folks!

You know, the very concept of God freely giving us His Grace is truly beyond my comprehension and experience. But, just look around at the saints who live today - and read about those who served Christ through their lives and heroic deaths - and we see Grace at work.

But, while I can only imagine about Grace - I have a very good idea of Free Will - and this is something truly within the comprehension and experience of every cognative person. The choice I made to respond to your post - was freely made - just as your post (I’m confident in my guessing here … ) was also freely made. Those who deny Free Will must have a difficult time - denying something that they freely chose to post a responce to on CAF! It makes me wonder just who is directing their actions since they have no Free Will they should be unable to even move! But, obviously, this can not be the case. Can you imagine a man standing before a Criminal Court Judge who has just asked the accused to enter a plea - and the accused say, “Your Honor, I lack Free Will and am therefore unable to chose and hence not resonsible for this crime!” I just wonder what the Judge will say.

Any thoughts on the ‘AoS’ position that they lack a Free Will?

God bless

The real issue with assurance of salvation is that it renders sin and virtue equally meaningless once the guarantee of salvation is made. Its pretty hard to argue that God would ignore both sin and virtue on the part of the Christian because of an arbitrary reason like “he was declared saved” or " he prayed the sinners prayer". How can nothing a person does matter? That doesn’t pass any test in the real world. Everything has ramifications in life, why wouldn’t it in the economy of salvation?

 

[Annie39]

Hi, PaulC,

You can moonlight for the Cliff’s Notes folks!

You know, the very concept of God freely giving us His Grace is truly beyond my comprehension and experience. But, just look around at the saints who live today - and read about those who served Christ through their lives and heroic deaths - and we see Grace at work.

But, while I can only imagine about Grace - I have a very good idea of Free Will - and this is something truly within the comprehension and experience of every cognative person. The choice I made to respond to your post - was freely made - just as your post (I’m confident in my guessing here … ) was also freely made. Those who deny Free Will must have a difficult time - denying something that they freely chose to post a responce to on CAF! It makes me wonder just who is directing their actions since they have no Free Will they should be unable to even move! But, obviously, this can not be the case. Can you imagine a man standing before a Criminal Court Judge who has just asked the accused to enter a plea - and the accused say, “Your Honor, I lack Free Will and am therefore unable to chose and hence not resonsible for this crime!” I just wonder what the Judge will say.

Any thoughts on the ‘AoS’ position that they lack a Free Will?

God bless

As I understand it, Calvinists who do not believe in free will do believe, Ihave been told in “free choice” and they do make a distinction. At least one of them quoted Augustine to me regarding free choice. I personally see their argument as a distinction without a difference.

 

[jcrichton]

Considering the discussion on these verses (Heb 6:4-8) that I have read, your “canned” statement is inaccurate. I can find reformed theologians who do not think this passage is a “warning to unbelievers” as I do. In fact, there is much discussion on this and Heb 10:26-29 within the Reformed and Arminian (those who disagree with Perseverence of the Saints) camps and within their systematic theology textbooks. For comparison purposes, I have collected many of these textbooks clear back into the 1800’s (more than 20 in my library).

As I understand it, the Greek here (Heb 6:4-8) is notoriously ambiguous. Terminology is provided without properly defining it, so we don’t have a clear understanding of what the author meant. This opens it to theological interpretation. Which, in turn, opens it to theological “baggage” or “glasses” that can bias our interpretation, and we all agree we need to be very careful about that. From hermeneutics, we know that “Scripture interprets Scripture” (the Scriptures harmonize with one another) - that is how I will be tested by my reformed friends.

I hope my response is received in the spirit of thoughtful theological discussion.

Sure, we have ample evidence of “false brethren” giving the outward/visible appearance that they were following Christ. I have family and I meet people who profess to be Christians, but in our conversations, I have to wonder “are they really Christians, or, with their minimalist theology, just professing Christians?” And we know this Hebrew audience is surprisingly immature:

11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. (Heb 5:11-14)

This occurs just before our 6:4-8 text. And what about teaching by Jesus? Are there wolves in sheeps clothing among us as Matt 7:15-20 indicates? The parables in Matthew 13 (and the other synoptic gospels Mark, Luke) indicates some follow for a time and leave, so we would expect the teaching of the early Church to reflect the “they were not of us” per 1 John 2:19. Also, Jesus said “I never knew you” to some who called Him “Lord” and did “good works” in His name who apparently didn’t leave the church (more below). But they were false brethren.
Certainly the Sermon on the Mount was a part of early Christian doctrine. Along with Jesus’ parables. And warnings of apostasy.

Isn’t this what examining ourselves (1 Cor 10:12, 2 Cor 13:5, Heb 3:12) is all about? And more: 2 Cor 11:12-15, false brethren of Gal 2:4, 1 Tim 1:10-14, 6:3-5. We simply cannot know for certain if the guy or gal next to us in the pew is a Christian (one of the elect). We can see their fruits and we can examine their doctrine to a Scriptural standard.

Therefore, I don’t see how this interpretation of warnings to “false brethren” is unreasonable.

Is that the point of the passage? The author could have easily just said “You will lose your salvation.” But he didn’t. He does say “enlightened” - but what does the author mean by that? See comments below.

Reformed theology says the Bible teaches that regeneration proceeds faith - that is, you are born of God (needed because Paul says, “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins” Eph 2:1, and John 1:12-13, John 6:44) and faith is free gift of God by His Grace (Rom 6:23; Eph 2:8-9; 1 John 4:19 - I hope that everyone following this does check out these verses).

(Continued)

I see you still show up… but the question remains… do you really want to live up to the enlightened (scholars) or to Christ… as you pointed out the highlighted passages… why is it that none who left the only Church Founded by Christ do not apply those passages to themselves when they have clearly left Christ’s Church hence ceasing being part of the Fold?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The translations say, “tasted.” This is vague terminology in the Greek, and not defined. What does the Author mean by “tasted the heavenly gift”? Again, this is vague.

Does “those who have once been enlightened” mean what you say? Does it mean they have been born again, and if it does, why doesn’t it just say that? Why doesn’t it mean that they have taken in Church teachings such as the knowledge of the gospel, that Jesus was born of virgin, His teachings to the disciples, that He was crucified and He paid the punishment for mankind’s sin problem? This “enlightened” knowledge with understanding, but without true faith would be consistent with 1 John 2:19 for those who leave the faith, and with Matt 7:23 for those who “persevere” in the “faith” but find out that Jesus “never knew” them.

Yes, I would agree on the age to come is the reign of Christ.

Not at all. I think your understanding of apostasy is wrong, so let’s define it and agree. Per Theopedia, “Apostasy is what one commits when they denounce, reject, or fall away from their faith (i.e. religion). A person who commits apostasy is called an apostate.”

Apostasy, from a Christian perspective, has two major characteristics: knowledge of the truth of the gospel and willful rejection of it. They certainly can be a part of a “Church” visibly, but they can reject it per 1 John 2:19 (with us but “not of us”) as you state above, OR, they can remain a part of a “Church”, trusting NOT in Jesus, but trusting in their own good works and motives that signify “glory be to me” (their pride, the true motives of their evil heart), and Jesus will say to them:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23, a personal favorite of jcrichton on this thread)

Notice, Jesus did say “I never knew you” - that word never again! This is a strong statement of “false brethren” who appeared to persevere that no one can ignore. Can we interpret this in any way other than they were false brethren? And this teaching by Jesus, being a part of the Sermon on the Mount, was certainly widely taught.

Consider another “never” statement by Jesus - John 10:28 where Jesus says His sheep “never perish”! I understand the Greek is clear and emphatic. Jesus’ sheep will never perish, not now or at any future time. (Consistent with the idea of “eternal life” and “no condemnation” and no “separation from the love of God” - John 5:24; Romans 6:23; 8:1; 8:38-39.)

<Quote:
Originally Posted by OldProf
The audience is a group of Jewish Christians since Gentiles are not mentioned. When addressing a “congregation” of professing Christians, we realize that some in the group may not be true believers. It is useful to engage them and warn them of God’s righteous wrath.>

I can’t argue that, and you shouldn’t either, unless you want to ignore Matthew 7:21-23 just discussed. No doubt that I agree this was a much more serious commitment in the early Church, and not like today. But “false brethren” was a known quantity then too.

(Continued on next post)

…but aren’t you continuing to dance with interpretation… apostacy means those who stay but reject Jesus… wow!

…no wonder you have such a problem with Eternal Salvation and God’s Omnipotence!

Jesus does not state that once saved always saved or that you have assurance of salvation if you are found to be part of some “elect” or “sheep” or “eternally saved” special group!

Here are Jesus’ Words:

34 ‘Watch yourselves, or your hearts will be coarsened by debauchery and drunkenness and the cares of life, and that day will come upon you unexpectedly, 35 like a trap. For it will come down on all those living on the face of the earth. 36 Stay awake, praying at all times for the strength to survive all that is going to happen, and to hold your ground before the Son of man.’ (St. Luke 21:34-36)

…not once does Jesus say that there are those who will simply not perish becuase they are found to be the “elect” or “sheep” or “eternally saved!”

…and you may claim that I’m reading something other than Scriptures… well… I am pedestrian so my language skills are inexistent… but no matter how you translate the Word of God, you cannot change Jesus’ warnings:

3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. (St. John 15:3-6)

May the Holy Spirit convict you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If there are “false brethren” there is “false repentance” and “false confession” etc. That is easy enough to explain. And it is “impossible … to restore them again” is it not? That is not what is taught about mortal sin - one can be restored from a mortal sin. I’ve heard it said “if there is life, there is hope.” I think this relates to the sin of unbelief (“unbelieving heart” Heb 3:12), and that they were “not of us” (1 John 2:19). “Impossible” is clearly the best translation of the Greek here from what I read, and that points to the unregenerate man with a false repentance.

Isaac Asimov wrote a two-volume work on the Bible - he, by all accounts, was unregenerate and he understood the gospel. You can tell by the way he writes about it from his own research for the books, and he rejected it. I have a good friend, a phychiatrist, who is Jewish, and we have discussed the gospel - he seems to understand it completely, but doesn’t believe Jesus is the Messiah. I pray for the Holy Spirit to draw him to Christ. I don’t pray for his free will to surrender, I pray for God’s drawing (John 6:44) which I believe is the proper way to pray for him. I cannot know if he is one of the elect, but right now he has an unbelieving heart.

Here the context indicates some of these Hebrew “Christians” had come to the brink of salvation. When they first heard the gospel they were excited, it was beautiful and reflected from other believers, they saw and felt a need to repent of sins and turn from old ways. This was their original condition. But they were not truly regenerated. They were not successful overcoming their sins and their spirits got dampened when they saw people follow for a while then leave. Some of those who left they knew quite well and they could identify with their reasons for leaving. They questioned the truthfulness of the gospel and if the old sacrificial system might be better. They considered leaving and now they hear this warning in this letter - IF THEY LEAVE, IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO BE RESTORED!

I do not know of any Roman Catholics or any Arminian Protestants who teach this impossibility. Do you? They do teach that if you die in a state of unbelief, then you will go to hell. But a common statement is also, “If there is breath there is hope!” This comes back to the understanding of free will and some ability to make righteous decisions. Do the spiritually dead have that ability?

The clear witness of the Sciptures is to beware of false teachers and false brethren as indicated above.

(Continued)

…wow… the unregenerated man fakes false repentense?

…OldProf, I do not mean to demean… but are you too smart for your own good?

…a person that has never Believed (never been enlightened/tasted) cannot fake repentense and cannot become an apostate!

Scriptures are not warning the Believers about what the unBelievers will experience if they deny Christ/the Holy Spirit/Yahweh God… Scriptures are warning that once a person Believes and rejects God none can convict him/her of the Truth and thus they find themselves at a lesser state than when they were simple sinners… a Believer who negates God (as the Jehovah Witnesses reject Christ’s Divinity) cannot be returned to a state of repentence and reconciliation with Got… the means by which a person can get close to God (Faith/dwelling) is Christ’s Holy Spirit… by rejecting God they reject the only means to Salvation: the Father Calls to the Son the Son Saves–all through the Holy Spirit!

This passage is not a warning to those outside of the Body of Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Agree: Children of Adam or Children of Christ. Agree: Children of Adam are dead in sins - spiritually dead. Clarify what spiritually dead means. Dead people have no abilities - they need resurection power, that is, to be born of God (John 1:13).

Isn’t it true that Partakers (Gk. metochos) has to do with association, not possession? These Jews (my view that the writer is concerned enough to warn any unbelieving Jews of the group) had never possessed the Holy Spirit, they simply were around when He was around. This word is used of fellow fishermen in Luke 5:7, and of Christ in relation to angels in Hebrews 1:9. It has to do with sharing in common associations and events. In the context of Hebrews 6:4, it refers to anyone who has been where the Holy Spirit has been ministering. It is possible to have an association with the Holy Spirit, to share in what He does, and not be saved.

My interpretation is consistent, so I respectfully disagree with you.

The early Christian fellowshipped with those who professed Christ. The early Christians were warned often to examine themselves. (“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” 2 Cor 13:5)

I’m not sure why you are trying to make that argument. I agree we don’t have true fellowship between believers and unbelievers. The reformed view is that the Holy Spirit has regenerated and is doing a sanctifying work only in believers.

For them to have “head knowledge” and then leave the “faith” - yes, it is possible. Maybe the definition of apostasy (see above) comes into play here. It will be difficult for me to agree with you that this “is a very weak argument” unless you can clarify why.

Perhaps I’ve clarified this enough already?

Why is it not acceptable to understand that he is addressing a group of Hebrew “Christians,” some who are saved and new to the faith, some who are saved and apparently not new but immature in the faith, and some who are in fellowship with the two previous groups who aren’t saved, at least not yet?

Is he addressing believers? Yes, but he recognizes that some might not be yet. He is encouraging them, but he doesn’t forget also to warn them.

(Continued on next post)

…again… it’s all about interpretation with you isn’t it… a person being around while the Holy Spirit was there but never being part (partaker)… wow… is that how Jesus Christ puts it?:

15 If you love me you will keep my commandments. 16 I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Paraclete to be with you for ever, 17 the Spirit of truth whom the world can never accept since it neither sees nor knows him; but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you. (St. John 14:15-17)

OlfProf, did Jesus get it wrong?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Aren’t you speculating here? Note Jude 1:4 “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Or Gal 2:4, 1 Tim 4:1, or Titus 1:16, or 3 John 1:9-11. The idea of “false brethren” in the Church is common. It is not a stretch to think that the author of Hebrews, inspired by the Holy Spirit, could could write this letter to this audience of immature believers and some suspected unbelievers as I have stated.

For this passage, us = believers, them = unbelievers - I agree. However, the group receives the letter. I see no problem for reformed theology with the audience I have described. Am I missing something here?

No, I believe that in their pride the unregenerate professing Christians serve for their own glory within the group.

You are setting up a false dilemma. The Bible describes three groups in the world.

1. Unbelievers.
2. False Christians.
3. True Christians (the elect, the sheep).

The author of Hebrews writes to a group of Hebrew “Christians” and recognizes that he addresses some true, but immature Christians, and, as is not uncommon, some false professing Christians.

Regards, OldProf

…yeah, OldProf… you are missing Jesus’ statements that the world (unBelievers) cannot receive nor know (accept, have the most vague notion of) the Holy Spirit; hence, only those who Believe have come to taste/be enlightened and can then fall into apostacy!

…a person who is not “regenerated” cannot accept God (St. John 3:15-21) while a person that comes to know God can (and have) reject God even though he/she knows that there’s no Salvation outside of Christ Jesus and that to attain Salvation a peson must be a branch that is attached to the True Vine!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

When I became a Christian in 1993, I had a Bible and two books on Chrisian marriage, none of which I had much interest in reading or studying. Since that time, my library of books, CD’s, and DVD’s has grown to almost 4000 volumes, with specific emphasis on apologetics, theology, Christian history, and commentaries. And I have thousands more mp3’s and pdf’s from the WWW. Cult apologetics has been a specific interest and one in which I’ve actively engaged.

I’m no biblical scholar by education - no Greek or Hebrew, but I have a scholary mindset and like to garner the resources that discuss the various theological positions. I want them at my disposal so I can consult them when questions arise. This includes the writings recommended by cults such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

From the Christian side, that is, those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, those who accept the Trinity, but disagree with reformed theology, I also try to give due diligence to their theological arguments. I do not judge them to not be Christians, I just think they are incorrect in certain aspects of their theology, and I’m hoping they do not have a false assurance (per my evidence lists).

To answer this question on Hebrews 6:4-8, I had the opportunity to consult some of those references. Being a chess player, I used to like to get up from the board, go around to my opponents side, and view the position from his vantage point. So I’m trying to do just that here. I’m trying to fully understand the Roman Catholic argument that this CLEARLY TEACHES THAT BELIEVERS CAN LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

One interesting point I discovered when consulting so many of these resouces is how often John 10:27-29 is compared and contrasted to Hebrew 6:4-6 with regards to the clarity of the Greek. And that is an important consideration for me.

You keep wanting that 100-word summary. Generalized arguments have a tendency to point down to specific’s anyway, which is what we are doing here. In this discussion we are trying to establish the Hebrew audience, apostasy, warnings, etc. Isn’t this even more valuable?

From your ‘summary’ I could write a 1000 words trying to establish what you mean by certain things (basic knowledge? etc.). And how does all that relate to the topic of AoS, where we all must agree we need to stay on topic?

I’m not saying it wouldn’t be interesting. It would.

Lunch is almost over, so I’ll close with this.

Assurance. When we read through the short letter of 1 John, we come to the end where the Apostle tells us:

“I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life.” (1 John 5:13 Amplified Bible)

If I am not doing what the previous verses of 1 John tell me, I had better examine myself! But if I am, then I can have this blessed assurance of my salvation. My joy (and yours too) can be full!

Regards, OldProf

…actually OldProf, instead of relying on what you interpret to mean eternal life… you should rely on the Word that explicitly tells you:

Whoever has the Son has life, and whoever has not the Son of God has not life.

…oh, yeah, I forgot, that’s 1 St. John 5:12–you see Eternal Life predicates on Having the Son… remember St. John 15:1-10?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The real issue with assurance of salvation is that it renders sin and virtue equally meaningless once the guarantee of salvation is made. Its pretty hard to argue that God would ignore both sin and virtue on the part of the Christian because of an arbitrary reason like “he was declared saved” or " he prayed the sinners prayer". How can nothing a person does matter? That doesn’t pass any test in the real world. Everything has ramifications in life, why wouldn’t it in the economy of salvation?

…what’s worse… it renders God complicit in the sin of every “elect” or “sheep” or “eternally saved” person of whom God become the guarantor… so as St. Paul once put it “should I then sin profusely so that His Mercy be demonstrated in its grandiosness?” (I’m paraphrasing, of course!)

7 You might as well say that if my untruthfulness makes God demonstrate his truthfulness, to his greater glory, then I should not be judged to be a sinner at all. 8 In this case, the slanderous report some people are spreading would be true, that we teach that one should do evil that good may come of it. In fact such people are justly condemned. (Romans 3:7-8)

Clearly that’s not the Apostles’ Teaching:

22 God’s saving justice given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. 23 No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God’s glory, 24 and all are justified by the free gift of his grace through being set free in Christ Jesus. 25 God appointed him as a sacrifice for reconciliation, through faith, by the shedding of his blood, and so showed his justness; first for the past, when sins went unpunished because he held his hand; 26 and now again for the present age, to show how he is just and justifies everyone who has faith in Jesus. 27 So what becomes of our boasts? There is no room for them. On what principle- that only actions count? No; that faith is what counts, 28 since, as we see it, a person is justified by faith and not by doing what the Law tells him to do. 29 Do you think God is the God only of the Jews, and not of gentiles too? Most certainly of gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God; he will justify the circumcised by their faith, and he will justify the uncircumcised through their faith. (Romans 3:22-30)

…those who believe in a God that hinders the Salvation of any who Seek Him while assuring the Salvation of those who sin in His Name will truly be met with Jesus’ Prophecy:

21 'It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers! (St. Matthew 7:21-23)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jcrichton,

WOW! This was very impressive - and it took a lot of patience and focus! Great job!

I’m constantly amazed at how 1,600 are just blown off and everything that has taken place is of little or no consequence - except for St. Augustine - who they constantly quote out of context while ignoring the other ECFs. My guess is that we are witnessing a filter that can catch any wandering gnat but fail to catch all of the marching camels!

Hmmmmm… ‘free choice’ vs ‘free will’, eh? I can honestly tell you I’ve never heard that one before. On a practical level, what does it mean?

God bless

…what’s worse… it renders God complicit in the sin of every “elect” or “sheep” or “eternally saved” person of whom God become the guarantor… so as St. Paul once put it “should I then sin profusely so that His Mercy be demonstrated in its grandiosness?” (I’m paraphrasing, of course!)

Clearly that’s not the Apostles’ Teaching:

…those who believe in a God that hinders the Salvation of any who Seek Him while assuring the Salvation of those who sin in His Name will truly be met with Jesus’ Prophecy:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

I have four questions which I would request be answered either in the affirmative (yes) or negative (no) followed by any brief explanation you believe is needed to qualify your answer.
Question 1: Do you believe the term “eternal” used in the above 1st John quote is a reference to a quality of life?
Question 2: Do you believe the term “eternal” used in the above 1st John quote is a reference to a quantity (ie duration) of life?
Question 3: Do you believe that the “assurance” spoken of in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - to the present moment (of the listener)?
Question 4: Do you believe the “assurance” spoken of in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - to all future moments (of the listener)?
Question 5: Do you believe that if has “this blessed assurance of salvation” that that means they will - of necessity - go to Heaven when they die?

Remember - please answer with a Y or N first, followed by any qualifications you feel are needed to explain your answer more fully.

Blessings!

Q1: Y (clearly from the Greek)
Q2: N (other verses clarify the duration of God’s elect)
Q3: Y (assuming listener agrees with what John has said so far)
Q4: N (it is possible to have a false assurance, Evidence List 1)
Q5: N (it is possible to have a false assurance, Evidence List 1)

Philthy, one of the problems I’ve noted over and over and OVER again on this thread is that people have seen my Evidence Lists 1 and 2, but they have not really realized just how biblical they really are.

Remember, yesterday I said:

“If I am not doing what the previous verses of 1 John tell me, I had better examine myself! But if I am, then I can have this blessed assurance of my salvation. My joy (and yours too) can be full!”

I’m agreeing with the Apostle John that we can have an assurance based on what he says. This is NOT AoS heresy as tqualey describes it. John said, “And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.” (1 John 1:4)

Then he writes the following verses of 1 John and gets to 1 John 5:13.

Now, the Evidence List 2 believer, one of the elect, will be in agreement and will identify all along with the Apostle. Then John says, “I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life.” (1 John 5:13 Amplified Bible)

What will the Elect do? Rejoice! Their joy will be full!

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Hi, Jcrichton,

WOW! This was very impressive - and it took a lot of patience and focus! Great job!

I’m constantly amazed at how 1,600 are just blown off and everything that has taken place is of little or no consequence - except for St. Augustine - who they constantly quote out of context while ignoring the other ECFs. My guess is that we are witnessing a filter that can catch any wandering gnat but fail to catch all of the marching camels!

Hmmmmm… ‘free choice’ vs ‘free will’, eh? I can honestly tell you I’ve never heard that one before. On a practical level, what does it mean?

God bless

And this is what I’m talking about. Hey Tom, re-think the Evidence Lists. Your characterization here is flat out insulting.

OldProf

 

[paul_c]

Q1: Y (clearly from the Greek)
Q2: N (other verses clarify the duration of God’s elect)
Q3: Y (assuming listener agrees with what John has said so far)
Q4: N (it is possible to have a false assurance, Evidence List 1)
Q5: N (it is possible to have a false assurance, Evidence List 1)

Philthy, one of the problems I’ve noted over and over and OVER again on this thread is that people have seen my Evidence Lists 1 and 2, but they have not really realized just how biblical they really are.

Remember, yesterday I said:

“If I am not doing what the previous verses of 1 John tell me, I had better examine myself! But if I am, then I can have this blessed assurance of my salvation. My joy (and yours too) can be full!”

I’m agreeing with the Apostle John that we can have an assurance based on what he says. This is NOT AoS heresy as tqualey describes it. John said, “And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.” (1 John 1:4)

Then he writes the following verses of 1 John and gets to 1 John 5:13.

Now, the Evidence List 2 believer, one of the elect, will be in agreement and will identify all along with the Apostle. Then John says, “I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life.” (1 John 5:13 Amplified Bible)

What will the Elect do? Rejoice! Their joy will be full!

Regards, OldProf

I pulled up your evidence list from post 72:
Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

I trust that this is what you meant. Have you considered that not one item in your list of evidence mentions Jesus or his Church. That is a great failing if it is a list of things a Christian does. See if you can describe a single thing in your list that a devout Hindu or Bhuddist or even a pagan would not be able to aspire to.

What you are missing is the things that would let others know you are a Christian:

1. Gaining God’s grace through the sacraments, a visible sign of our love and fidelity
   → Being baptized in the name of the Father and of the son and the Holy Spirit.
   → Partaking in the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist
   → Being married in the Church or being ordained a priest or being consecrated as a religious monk or nun.
   → Gaining the gifts of the Holy Spirit through confirmation
   → Returning to Grace through the sacrament of reconciliation
   → Being physically and spiritually healed through the annointing of the sick
2. participating as a member of the Body of Christ, his One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
   → As a ordained clergy
   → as a teacher
   → as an evangelist
   → as a Christian apologist
   → as a lector or singer
   → as one who provides for the needs of others
   → as a participant in mass
   → as one who prays the eternal Christian devotionals: the adoration of the Eucharist, the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, novenas, etc
   → Being obedient to the magesterium of the Church, the Pope and the Bishops who Jesus commissioned to administer his sacraments and teach the truths about salvation

These are the marks the distinguish a Christian from others.

And keep in mind, the Catholic Church does agree that some people are elect of God, destined for sanctity from their conception for God’s purposes. Mary is an obvious example, since by a singular grace, she was conceived without original sins to make her a worthy mother for our Lord. But while some have special graces, none are predestined to Hell. God speaks to all men’s hearts and wills none to be condemned. But in his justice, he allows us to make meaningful decisions that effect our ultimate salvation or condemnation. And to go back a second, God did not limit even Mary’s free will. Although he gave her special graces, she still was given the opportunity to say no to the incarnation but she chose to say, " Be it done to me according to they word"

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Honestly, your post is just a bit vague - at least for my thick Irish head… so please:

What is the ‘this’ that you ar talking about?

I really have re-thought your so-called ‘Evidence Lists’ and they both suffer from the same Fatal Flaw - an error in the major premise: God does not despise some of His human creation - an error in the minor premise: God honors the Free Will choices of men - and a false conclusion: denial that God wills the salvation of all men. Each of the items in the ‘Evidence List’ is Calvin’s TULIP heresy filter that all scripture must be strained through.

Now, if you want real Evidence, then try God so loved the world that He gave His Only Son … (John 3:16)

My intention was to insult no one - and if you were insulted, I sincerely apologize. But, please tell me, which characterization did you find insulting?

**That it took Jcrichton time an patience to construct this post?

That prior to the 16th Century both the Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism heresies were condemned by the early Catholic Church?

That St. Augustine - a staunch defender of the Catholic Church and the Primacy of Peter is consistently misquoted as him believing in the Double Presestination that Calvin proclaimed?

That other Early Church Fathers - herotic defenders of the Catholic Church - are systematically ignored because they point our the multiple foundation errors that culminated in Protestantism?

That marching camels - large and obvious doctrinal error - are the result of private interpretation of Scripture?

That man really does have Free Will - just like you chosing to respond is an act of Free Will - and I chosing to disagree is an act of my Free Will?**

You know, I still think the very heart of the matter is that some can not simply read what is written in Scripture without the desire to provide their own personal interpretation - and what we ultimately see is distortion of the Written Word. While I do not think you agree with this, you have simply clung to your ‘Evidence List’ of distorted and misapplied Scripture to try an ‘prove’ the heresy that God is a tyrant Who condemns whomever He will for His Own Pleasure while telling others that they are His Sheep. I’ve provided what I consider an honest summary of Hebrews 6, I would honestly be interested in seeing your short summary of this Scripture. I think others would be interested in seeing your efforts here, too.

The real characterization I have had trouble with is how you have failed to engage most posts on their significant challenge to your position. This is not to say you have not written, but what has been provided is irrelevant and immaterial. Calvin proclaimed himself a ‘Sheep’ but, had his doubts about everyone else! As I see it, this is a profoundly depressing distortion of God’s Holy Word. In the 50 or so remaining posts - please do a better job of championing Calvinism. May I suggest you take just one item and work it through. (‘Total depravity’ has always been a 'favorite of mine… )

God bless

And this is what I’m talking about. Hey Tom, re-think the Evidence Lists. Your characterization here is flat out insulting.

OldProf

 

[Philthy]

Excellent work Old Prof! I’m sure you have surprised some with your pithy responses! That doesn’t mean we have left no stones unturned however - read on…

Question 1: Do you believe the term “eternal” used in the above 1st John quote is a reference to a quality of life?

Q1: Y (clearly from the Greek)

I agree, and what is the quality of eternal life? John 17:3: And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Eternal life is - at least - the quality of knowing God.

Question 2: Do you believe the term “eternal” used in the above 1st John quote is a reference to a quantity (ie duration) of life?

OP:

Q2: N (other verses clarify the duration of God’s elect)

Interesting! So you do not believe that the “eternal” life spoken of is - of necessity - everlasting. Correct? Y or N please! I’m just double checking. I’ve not met many Calvinists who didn’t believe that salvation was instantaneous, complete and permanent at the time one came to faith. You appear to be the exception.

Question 3: Do you believe that the “assurance” spoken of in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - to the present moment (of the listener)?

OP:

Q3: Y (assuming listener agrees with what John has said so far)

Agreed!

Question 4: Do you believe the “assurance” spoken of in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - to all future moments (of the listener)?

Q4: N (it is possible to have a false assurance, Evidence List 1)

Sorry, but this answer misses the mark, as does your answer to Q5. St John specifically addresses “you who believe” - and mentions nothing with respect to false assurance. Take a look: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." I wish to discuss the person who meets the criteria put forth by St John.
So let me repeat the question:
Q4b: For those who “believe in the name of the Son of God” at the present moment: Do you believe that the “assurance” spoken of (“you may know”) in the 1st John verse above is referring - of necessity - *to all future moments *for them? Y or N please.

Question 5: Do you believe that if one has “this blessed assurance of salvation” that that means they will - of necessity - go to Heaven when they die?

OP:

Q5: N (it is possible to have a false assurance, Evidence List 1)

Again, let me repeat the question: **
For those who “believe in the name of the Son of God” at the present moment: D**o you believe that if one has “this blessed assurance of salvation” now, that that means they will - of necessity - go to Heaven when they die? In other words, if one has a genuine assurance of salvation at the present moment, does that assurance guarantee that they will go to Heaven when they die? Y or N please.

Remember, yesterday I said:
“If I am not doing what the previous verses of 1 John tell me, I had better examine myself! But if I am, then I can have this blessed assurance of my salvation. My joy (and yours too) can be full!” I’m agreeing with the Apostle John that we can have an assurance based on what he says…

We are getting down to some nitty gritty of what, exactly, “an” assurance means and what it does not mean. Having “an” assurance of salvation based upon my own estimation of whether I meet the criteria set forth by John at the present moment
certainly gives me “an assurance” of being saved. That assurance, however, does not IMHO mean that I will persevere in that state. I could lose faith, hope and love during my earthly pilgrimage and make a shipwreck of my faith as St Paul says. Although I can have “an assurance” that it won’t happen, I don’t have (apart from personal divine revelation) perfect knowledge of the future and of my eternal destiny.
I can’t tell yet from the answers you gave whether we agree on this or not, but it will become obvious when you answer the restated questions above.

I’ll have to go back to the evidence lists that you mention and review them. I don’t think they are important, however, in addressing the deeper question of exactly what the nature of the “assurance of eternal life” John speaks of. I believe it is an assurance of being in a state of friendship with God (state of grace) and that IF you should die at this moment you can have “an assurance” of your destiny. I do not, however, believe it speaks to anything beyond that - it does not address whether - years from now - you will be judged “a good and faithful servant” when you die and go to Heaven.

Blessings!

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Jcrichton,

WOW! This was very impressive - and it took a lot of patience and focus! Great job!

I’m constantly amazed at how 1,600 are just blown off and everything that has taken place is of little or no consequence - except for St. Augustine - who they constantly quote out of context while ignoring the other ECFs. My guess is that we are witnessing a filter that can catch any wandering gnat but fail to catch all of the marching camels!

Hmmmmm… ‘free choice’ vs ‘free will’, eh? I can honestly tell you I’ve never heard that one before. On a practical level, what does it mean?

God bless

Hi, Tom!

Thank you for your kind words!

…it’s confusing, to say the least… specially when someone state that they have en massed a huge library that includes Church history… I’m not versed in Church history, but did she not hold that Arainism was a heresy, along with OSAS and its derivatives?

…when searching out the Truth, how can one selectively reject everything that disproves a teaching that is totally opposed to nearly 16 centuries of Christian Teaching?

…and even if we were to attempt “sola” Scriptura… how is a person seeking the Truth not convicted by the Sacred Scriptures that they claim to hold as the final Word?:

34 ‘Watch yourselves, or your hearts will be coarsened by debauchery and drunkenness and the cares of life, and that day will come upon you unexpectedly, 35 like a trap. For it will come down on all those living on the face of the earth. 36 Stay awake, praying at all times for the strength to survive all that is going to happen, and to hold your ground before the Son of man.’ (St. Luke 21:34-36)

…how can anyone earnestly claim that one is eternally saved when Jesus Himself, time and again, Teaches that His Disciples must remain steadfast to Him and His Teaching–that to do otherwise the cares of the world will snatch their hearts and minds away from God and that they will not be able to persevere till His Parousia?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Q1: Y (clearly from the Greek)
Q2: N (other verses clarify the duration of God’s elect)
Q3: Y (assuming listener agrees with what John has said so far)
Q4: N (it is possible to have a false assurance, Evidence List 1)
Q5: N (it is possible to have a false assurance, Evidence List 1)

Philthy, one of the problems I’ve noted over and over and OVER again on this thread is that people have seen my Evidence Lists 1 and 2, but they have not really realized just how biblical they really are.

Remember, yesterday I said:

“If I am not doing what the previous verses of 1 John tell me, I had better examine myself! But if I am, then I can have this blessed assurance of my salvation. My joy (and yours too) can be full!”

I’m agreeing with the Apostle John that we can have an assurance based on what he says. This is NOT AoS heresy as tqualey describes it. John said, “And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.” (1 John 1:4)

Then he writes the following verses of 1 John and gets to 1 John 5:13.

Now, the Evidence List 2 believer, one of the elect, will be in agreement and will identify all along with the Apostle. Then John says, “I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, yes, eternal life.” (1 John 5:13 Amplified Bible)

What will the Elect do? Rejoice! Their joy will be full!

Regards, OldProf

11 This is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life, and whoever has not the Son of God has not life. (1 St. John 5:11-12)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I pulled up your evidence list from post 72:
Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

I trust that this is what you meant. Have you considered that not one item in your list of evidence mentions Jesus or his Church. That is a great failing if it is a list of things a Christian does. See if you can describe a single thing in your list that a devout Hindu or Bhuddist or even a pagan would not be able to aspire to.

What you are missing is the things that would let others know you are a Christian:

1. Gaining God’s grace through the sacraments, a visible sign of our love and fidelity
   → Being baptized in the name of the Father and of the son and the Holy Spirit.
   → Partaking in the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist
   → Being married in the Church or being ordained a priest or being consecrated as a religious monk or nun.
   → Gaining the gifts of the Holy Spirit through confirmation
   → Returning to Grace through the sacrament of reconciliation
   → Being physically and spiritually healed through the annointing of the sick
2. participating as a member of the Body of Christ, his One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
   → As a ordained clergy
   → as a teacher
   → as an evangelist
   → as a Christian apologist
   → as a lector or singer
   → as one who provides for the needs of others
   → as a participant in mass
   → as one who prays the eternal Christian devotionals: the adoration of the Eucharist, the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, novenas, etc
   → Being obedient to the magesterium of the Church, the Pope and the Bishops who Jesus commissioned to administer his sacraments and teach the truths about salvation

These are the marks the distinguish a Christian from others.

And keep in mind, the Catholic Church does agree that some people are elect of God, destined for sanctity from their conception for God’s purposes. Mary is an obvious example, since by a singular grace, she was conceived without original sins to make her a worthy mother for our Lord. But while some have special graces, none are predestined to Hell. God speaks to all men’s hearts and wills none to be condemned. But in his justice, he allows us to make meaningful decisions that effect our ultimate salvation or condemnation. And to go back a second, God did not limit even Mary’s free will. Although he gave her special graces, she still was given the opportunity to say no to the incarnation but she chose to say, " Be it done to me according to they word"

…sorry Paul c… I think you’ve just set the bar waaaaay too high… what with Scriptural Obedience and Believing Christ’s Word… and not holding on to man’s self-determined means of Salvation (for the elect) and damnation (for all who are not lucky to be part of the elect)… then you try to scare people into thinking that there’s a complex means to Salvation set by Christ (His Mystical Body and the Sacraments He Instituted)… are you purposely trying to Save all of mankind? (Ezekiel 18:30-32)

Maran atha!