Assurance of Salvation

[fhansen]

Than you, now that makes sense…the converts most well known are from Calvin is tic backgrounds…and evidently when read by Catholics, they tend to believe it’s a common or well known doctrine of Protestants, even though it is held by a minority of Protestants…and even among those who do hold the belief do OSAS tend to tailor it with “yes buts”…OSAS as expressed by modern Calvinit’s “forget” the the whole scheme of election, predestination , perseverance of the saints are not usually part of the discussikn.
OSAS would be TRUE if the other distinctive Calvin is beliefs were true.

If God has elected only a set number of individuals to be saved…and one was fortunate enough to know they were among the elect, then there would be NOTHING one could do to become “un-elected”, hence OSAS.

So, do you agree with Trent’s teachings?

 

[Seekerjn316]

So, do you agree with Trent’s teachings?

While I cannot determine who and who does not "walk in the Light " with any certainty, I can claim this blessed assurance as my own. I know Whom I have believed…the “Whom” makes the difference. “These things were written that you may know you have eternal life”

The Good Shepherd will keep watch when I sleep…its not in who I am or what I do that gives me the assurance I am a child of God and if I were to die, I am not concerned about my destination…I know the Pilot.

 

[fhansen]

While I cannot determine who and who does not "walk in the Light " with any certainty, I can claim this blessed assurance as my own. I know Whom I have believed…the “Whom” makes the difference. “These things were written that you may know you have eternal life”

The Good Shepherd will keep watch when I sleep…its not in who I am or what I do that gives me the assurance I am a child of God and if I were to die, I am not concerned about my destination…I know the Pilot.

I guess I’m not sure how that differs from OSAS. Either way, not all Protestants hold to that same level of certainty regarding assurance.

 

[guanophore]

Thank God I'm a heretic...for "I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep what I have committed  to him against that day."  "If any man sins, he has an advocate before the Fathef, Jesus Christ the Righteous."

This verse, Seeker, is part of the New Testament, which was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

Anyway, you probably cannot qualify as a heretic, because that term is reserved for those who once embraced the Apostolic teaching, then abandoned it.

Most Protestants do not believe in “eternal security”, “perseverance of the saints”, “OSAS”, I find it strange that Catholics here tend to focus on a doctrine most of us do not hold with and always bring g it up as “proof” our understanding of grace is marred.

On the Co trary, perhaps our understanding of grace isn’t wrong or lacking, but your understanding .that most of us do not believe OSAS.

I am not sure which protestants you are polling, but virutually every Reformed person that has come on to CAF believes this, as well as some who do not even know they espouse Calvanist theology.

 

[Seekerjn316]

This verse, Seeker, is part of the New Testament, which was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

Should I thank you personally? Or do you have an address for me to send the "Thank you’ card? Help me out here.

Anyway, you probably cannot qualify as a heretic, because that term is reserved for those who once embraced the Apostolic teaching, then abandoned it.

Ahh…shoot…I read a list of heretics once and found names on it I identified with…I thought I was in good company.

I am not sure which protestants you are polling, but virutually every Reformed person that has come on to CAF believes this, as well as some who do not even know they espouse Calvanist theology.

Let me think a monment…don’t want to go back and read what I wrote…Calvinist…yeah…minority of Protestants…yeah, I kind of remember that…Far be it from me to contradict you should I be…but didn’t I state OSAS is a Calvinist belief? Is what’s hanging you up the fact I didn’t specify “Reformed” was Calvinist? Your statement doesn’t track with me as being something I should have concerned myself with…Reformed are Calvinist, not all the Reformers were.

 

[Seekerjn316]

I guess I’m not sure how that differs from OSAS. Either way**, not all Protestants hold to that same level of certainty regarding assurance.**

True, I dare say not all Catholics hold to the same level of uncertainty…I was not speaking for all Protestants, I believe I named all Evangelical traditions, which DO hold a HIGH level of certainty regarding assurance…their favorite hymns seem to be “Blessed Assurance Jesus is mine, oh what a foretaste of glory divine, heir of salvation, washed in His blood, filled with His Spirit, lost in His love.”…now, it’s been years since I was in a service that used music, but I believe those are the opening lines of one of the hymns we sang at the Nazarene church…Free Methodist revival I attended…Weslyan Sunday night sing…Salvation Army at the Rescue Mission…don’t remember if sung at the Evangelical Friends meeting I attended…it has neverf been sang at the Meeting I attend now as far as I can remember…heard lots of people stand to give ministry through song…but no one was ever moved to sing “Blessed Assurance”…but the level of certanty of my eternal destiny is shared by most if not all the Quakers I know.

And while some of the Main Line groups USED to sing that old hymn, I do know that many now do not…it has gone out of fashion perhaps? I don’t know where most Main Line groups are on the subject today…but once they shared the same level of certainty…at least doctrinally they did…Methodists, did, Baptists did and do, Congregational I think did as well, perhaps the Episcopalians share closer to your view of being uncertain…never thought of asking.

But those from an Evangelical background certainly do and did hold to this “Blessed Assurance”.

 

[frangiuliano115]

There are many different theologies that have arisen due mainly to faulty understanding of scripture. Many Protestants do believe in the doctrines mentioned, while others do not. Many, many Protestants live in any case as Catholics generally do, with a guarded assurance. Sounds like you may not be a heretic after all.

Trent was addressing the different teachings coming from the Reformers, teachings which have shaped Protestantism to this day.

Good morning,

Going thru the posts.

All protestant denominations I know of do believe in the assurance of salvation - which I hope has been made clear that it does not mean OSAS. If I’m not mistaken, it’s only some Baptists that have this doctrine.

They believe that you’re saved until and unless you deny the Holy Spirit, which is the only unpardonable sin. Of course if you don’t believe in God, or decide to abandon Him you also abandon your faith.

What makes Seeker not be a heretic? The fact that you think he thinks that salvation cannot be assured? We can be sure too fhansen. Are we not reading the same bible?

Did I mention this before? It was late last night and no time to go back and read –
Fra’ Lorenzo, who is not afraid of telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth (which is not what I could say of all priests, sorry) is a Benedictine, not that it has anything to do with it but just to explain. He lives in a sanctuary with others and prays 8 hours a day and works and teaches. He said that we can be sure of our salvation if we do it at the foot of the cross. Which would remove ego, pride, boastfulness, etc.

The reason I specifically asked this is because many catholics I know are not sure of their salvation and are constantly working for it and fearing falling away, fearing mortal sin. Does Ephesians 2:8 mean nothing to us? I know that it does. You could bring up James but it doesn’t deny that faith comes first.

I think this is important. To have the joy of security, I mean. Since I depend not on my own goodness or my own works, but on Him who went to that cross for me.

Fran

 

[fhansen]

Good morning,

Going thru the posts.

All protestant denominations I know of do believe in the assurance of salvation - which I hope has been made clear that it does not mean OSAS. If I’m not mistaken, it’s only some Baptists that have this doctrine.

They believe that you’re saved until and unless you deny the Holy Spirit, which is the only unpardonable sin. Of course if you don’t believe in God, or decide to abandon Him you also abandon your faith.

What makes Seeker not be a heretic? The fact that you think he thinks that salvation cannot be assured? We can be sure too fhansen. Are we not reading the same bible?

Did I mention this before? It was late last night and no time to go back and read –
Fra’ Lorenzo, who is not afraid of telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth (which is not what I could say of all priests, sorry) is a Benedictine, not that it has anything to do with it but just to explain. He lives in a sanctuary with others and prays 8 hours a day and works and teaches. He said that we can be sure of our salvation if we do it at the foot of the cross. Which would remove ego, pride, boastfulness, etc.

The reason I specifically asked this is because many catholics I know are not sure of their salvation and are constantly working for it and fearing falling away, fearing mortal sin. Does Ephesians 2:8 mean nothing to us? I know that it does. You could bring up James but it doesn’t deny that faith comes first.

I think this is important. To have the joy of security, I mean. Since I depend not on my own goodness or my own works, but on Him who went to that cross for me.

Fran

yes, we have the joy of a certain level of security, without the “rash presumption” that seems to be evident in Calvinism and some evangelical circles and which is inconsistent with humility. I’m sorry, but this is simply the teaching of the Church- and it aligns with my experience as well. yes, as long as we live a life that we know is pleasing to God, we can have an assurance that we should be in good stead with Him. but even this is subjective, and we must, in the end, leave judgment to Him.

And I didn’t say Seeker was a heretic. He indicated that Trent’s teachings might identify him as such. sheez!

 

[frangiuliano115]

yes, we have the joy of a certain level of security, without the “rash presumption” that seems to be evident in Calvinism and some evangelical circles and which is inconsistent with humility. I’m sorry, but this is simply the teaching of the Church- and it aligns with my experience as well. yes, as long as we live a life that we know is pleasing to God, we can have an assurance that we should be in good stead with Him. but even this is subjective, and we must, in the end, leave judgment to Him.

And I didn’t say Seeker was a heretic. He indicated that Trent’s teachings might identify him as such. sheez!

I certainly am not going to argue with you. We each understand as we will.

Just check out these pp’s in the CCC. They’re very edifying.

no. 55, 161, 162, 163, 164 and 169.

Of course, you’re right that we’re to persevere till the end. We can read this in Phillipians 2.

Fran

 

[fhansen]

I certainly am not going to argue with you. We each understand as we will.

Just check out these pp’s in the CCC. They’re very edifying.

no. 55, 161, 162, 163, 164 and 169.

Of course, you’re right that we’re to persevere till the end. We can read this in Phillipians 2.

Fran

Its good that you want to emphasize that we can trust in God to do a good work in us, that our faith pleases Him, that we can have an assurance of salvation. Catholicism has perhaps often seemed to de-emphasize this in practice, if not in doctrine.

But the Church’s teachings are about balance, and so we also need to remember that we work out our salvation, sometimes in fear and trembling, and that salvation is not an all-at-once one time event. And here is where the Reformers did, indeed, introduce unbalanced positions that can promote over-confidence in ones status in regards to salvation.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Its good that you want to emphasize that we can trust in God to do a good work in us, that our faith pleases Him, that we can have an assurance of salvation. Catholicism has perhaps often seemed to de-emphasize this in practice, if not in doctrine.

But the Church’s teachings are about balance, and so we also need to remember that we work out our salvation, sometimes in fear and trembling, and that salvation is not an all-at-once one time event. And here is where the Reformers did, indeed, introduce unbalanced positions that can promote over-confidence in ones status in regards to salvation.

Well, you know what we say:

We ARE saved
We are BEING saved
We WILL BE saved

But at every moment, we can know that we are saved! I think this thought scares us a bit. I mean, I have catechist friends who tell me we can’t be sure. I know where you’re coming from.

I mean, I don’t think the reformers introduced a position of confidence in ones status, I think Jesus did!

However, I do know what you mean about the reformers. I don’t agree with some myself and certainly salvation can be lost.

Peace
Fran

 

[guanophore]

Good morning,

Going thru the posts.

What makes Seeker not be a heretic? The fact that you think he thinks that salvation cannot be assured? We can be sure too fhansen. Are we not reading the same bible?

Seeker, even if espousing heretical views, cannot qualify for the label.

Yes we read the same bible, but we understand it differently.

  He lives in a sanctuary with others and prays 8 hours a day and works and teaches.  He said that we can be sure of our salvation if we do it at the foot of the cross.  Which would remove ego, pride, boastfulness, etc.

There are many such assurances through the Church, and through the Scriptures. I think your point about removing ego, pride, and boastfulness is crucial. I have not observed these qualities in many of those who espouse OSAS.

The reason I specifically asked this is because many catholics I know are not sure of their salvation and are constantly working for it and fearing falling away, fearing mortal sin.  Does Ephesians 2:8 mean nothing to us?  I know that it does.  You could bring up James but it doesn't deny that faith comes first.

Yes, it is a lack of appropriate catechesis, which you seem to be diligently addressing.

Working “on” ones salvation is completely different from working “out” ones salvation. The former emanates from ego, the latter, from grace.

I think this is important.  To have the joy of security, I mean.  Since I depend not on my own goodness or my own works, but on Him who went to that cross for me.

Fran

Certainly Jesus meant for us to walk in this life in “righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”. We are to rest in Him, who is our Sabbath.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Seeker, even if espousing heretical views, cannot qualify for the label.

Yes we read the same bible, but we understand it differently.

There are many such assurances through the Church, and through the Scriptures. I think your point about removing ego, pride, and boastfulness is crucial. I have not observed these qualities in many of those who espouse OSAS.

Yes, it is a lack of appropriate catechesis, which you seem to be diligently addressing.

Working “on” ones salvation is completely different from working “out” ones salvation. The former emanates from ego, the latter, from grace.

Certainly Jesus meant for us to walk in this life in “righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”. We are to rest in Him, who is our Sabbath.

i believe Seeker is agreeing with me that we can have assurance of our salvation at the foot of the cross.

Other than that:

 

[jlhargus]

Do Roman Catholics think that those who believe in ‘assurance of salvation,’ also believe they have a license to sin?

As with any Protestant teaching there are always differences. I have debated with those who believe OSAS but if you sin you were never saved in the first place. I have debated with those who believe OSAS no matter what one does.

 

[frangiuliano115]

As with any Protestant teaching there are always differences. I have debated with those who believe OSAS but if you sin you were never saved in the first place. I have debated with those who believe OSAS no matter what one does.

Yes. Both exist. And both are not biblical.

It’s really amazing to me how anyone could come up with this. But that’s Calvinism for you. Just take a couple of verses and throw out all the rest.

I’m for grace myself. But this is taking grace to its extreme. As Brendan64 would like to say - you do need a bit of balance. Grace could be so misunderstood.

Fran

 

[TCEL]

To answer the question, the few people I know who hold to once saved always saved do not see it as a license to sin. The theoretical ones who do would be like Catholics who think Confession gives them a license to sin, which I have also not personally come across.

To touch on something semi-related, a college friend surprised me. She was part of the groups that hand out questionnaires on the plazas, one of which is, “Are you saved?” They were the campus non-denominational Evangelicals. So, we went round and round on the topic for a couple of years. I always answered that I hope I am, but I don’t presume. During the last semester of college, the topic came up again, and she laughed, saying that once saved always saved isn’t biblical!

I doubt it had anything to do with my conversations with her, but I guess she had been talking to her mentor about me. She then understood that I didn’t want to presume I was saved. I wish I had been able to follow-up with her, but we lost touch.

 

[eazyduzit]

Just to clarify, OSAS is not the same as “perserverance of the saints”, the “p” in TULIP. I understand how many think that it is nothing but a licence to sin, but if one has his view fixed on Christ then it is really not so and never can be. The promise of God is that Jesus himself is the author and finisher of my faith and He shall preserve me and present me faultless before God. This is God’s promise. I should honor it by having full faith in it and not doubting. Anything less is not good faith and will not do. Doubt is not faith. Have I been sealed by the HS or not? Does His sealing mean anything or do you discount that too?

One will have a different perspective on this depending on whether one has his eyes fixed on Christ or on himself and his own abilities.

 

[TCEL]

Just to clarify, OSAS is not the same as “perserverance of the saints”, the “p” in TULIP. I understand how many think that it is nothing but a licence to sin, but if one has his view fixed on Christ then it is really not so and never can be. The promise of God is that Jesus himself is the author and finisher of my faith and He shall preserve me and present me faultless before God. This is God’s promise. I should honor it by having full faith in it and not doubting. Anything less is not good faith and will not do. Doubt is not faith. Have I been sealed by the HS or not? Does His sealing mean anything or do you discount that too?

One will have a different perspective on this depending on whether one has his eyes fixed on Christ or on himself and his own abilities.

I have a hard time seeing the distinction. I don’t see how one can believe in either OSAS or perseverance of the saints as you described, without disbelieving in free will. To me, it seems to make someone less human, not more human. I mean, Jesus even allowed some of his disciples to walk away after he talked about the bread of life, didn’t He? That doesn’t mean we should be fearful, or that Jesus doesn’t work within us, but frankly, it does give me a healthy fear of God that He respects our free-will so much. But, free-will is one of the classic debates, isn’t it… I guess a lot of it boils down to how you understand the human person.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I have a hard time seeing the distinction. I don’t see how one can believe in either OSAS or perseverance of the saints as you described, without disbelieving in free will. To me, it seems to make someone less human, not more human. I mean, Jesus even allowed some of his disciples to walk away after he talked about the bread of life, didn’t He? That doesn’t mean we should be fearful, or that Jesus doesn’t work within us, but frankly, it does give me a healthy fear of God that He respects our free-will so much. But, free-will is one of the classic debates, isn’t it… I guess a lot of it boils down to how you understand the human person.

I’m sorry to disturb and eazyduzit will answer for him/herself, but there is much confustion here.

You gave a good example in your previous post re confession. Most catholics don’t think you could sin and then go to confession and then sin again and so forth. Some do!
Let’s put that aside.

Once Saved Always Saved is a concept some protestants have, basically some Baptist sub-denominations and word of faith and I’m not sure about the grace movement.
NOT ALL PROTESTANTS BELIEVE THIS. We catholics go around speaking as if ALL protestants believe in the osas doctrine.

The OSAS doctrine says that ONCE you are saved you can NEVER lose that salvation. the doctrine comes from Romans, Galatians and I think Hebrews. The concept could really be found in any of Paul’s books. You never even have to confess your sins! Protestants confess too but directly to God. They don’t have to because they feel they cannot loose their salvation and thus no confession is necessary. They feel that even if they decide to abandon God one day they will still be saved because Jesus said He will not lose any that the Father has sent Him.

MOST PROTESTANTS DO NOT BELIEVE THE ABOVE. They believe what we do except we get it all mixed up with the Law, and they don’t. We, and most protestants, believe that one is saved by FAITH through the grace of God and not by our own works, lest any man should boast - that he can be his own God.

We both believe that we can be assured of our salvation. Now, as catholics, we could disagree on this- you and I , I mean because there is misunderstanding on this. However we DO believe that:

We ARE saved
We are BEING saved
We WILL BE saved

I’m sure you’ve heard this. So, if you think about it, at any given moment, we believe we’re saved! I mean, WE believe in the perseverance of the saints too. WE are the saints and we are to persevere, and not abandon God, until our end of life.

Both catholics and protestants believe salvation can be lost. Catholics through mortal sin. ** Protestants believe salvation can be lost when one abandons God **and returns to his “vomit” as Paul said in 2 Peter 2:22. When they sin they confess to God but they do not loose their salvation.

The only unpardonable sin we both believe in is the sin against the Holy Spirit. When you come right down to it, it’s the sin of unbelief. God can’t save you if you don’t believe in Him. At that point, salvation is lost.

We’re not talking about free will here. Eazyduzit is not talking about Calvinism. That is a very distinct branch of protestantism that practically all denominations don’t believe in. EDuzit is not debating free will. I think he/she is just trying to say what I’ve tried to explain. There does seem to me to be much misunderstanding in our church regarding this.

Reader’s Digest Version: Protestants do believe salvation can be lost.

I just hope I didn’t misunderstand YOU and carried on for nothing!!

Fran

 

[fhansen]

Just to clarify, OSAS is not the same as “perserverance of the saints”, the “p” in TULIP. I understand how many think that it is nothing but a licence to sin, but if one has his view fixed on Christ then it is really not so and never can be. The promise of God is that Jesus himself is the author and finisher of my faith and He shall preserve me and present me faultless before God. This is God’s promise. I should honor it by having full faith in it and not doubting. Anything less is not good faith and will not do. Doubt is not faith. Have I been sealed by the HS or not? Does His sealing mean anything or do you discount that too?

One will have a different perspective on this depending on whether one has his eyes fixed on Christ or on himself and his own abilities.

The issue is that we’re the wildcard, not Him. We simply cannot presume that we will persevere, even as we trust in the goodness, mercy, and love of God. Providing that we continue to walk in faith and hope and love, living accordingly, following and obeying Him, then of course we can have assurance in our hope of eternal life. But that will not happen without our striving, without our vigilance, without our persevering, without doing our part in the process. Its a matter of emphasis IMO. God will always be there. Will we always respond to Him?.