Assurance of Salvation

[guanophore]

In all fairness to you, I DO believe you misunderstood my post below:

Very possibly. When you post two options, and then ask “which is it”, it seems to imply that one needs to choose between the two.

So which is it? Knowing Christ allowed Paul to know his destiny or
Trent taught against the notion that we could know we’re saved because we believe in our faith.

I wasn’t disagreeing with the concept of knowing Christ AND knowing our limitations. Do you think I don’t know my limitatins?? Seems like everything I post is affirming this!

Certainly.

No, I don’t think either of the options has to do with limitations. We are talking about the assurance of salvation.

 I was comparing those two concepts TOGETHER with what the council of trent said.

So, when you are asking “which is it?” are you setting the Scriptures agains the Council?

  I just can't keep going on forever about this.  Just believe what you will.  Readers are not stupid - they could come to their own conclusions with no help from either me or you.

Creating false dichotomies will not help readers reach an informed conclusion, do you think?

 

[frangiuliano115]

Very possibly. When you post two options, and then ask “which is it”, it seems to imply that one needs to choose between the two.


Certainly.

No, I don’t think either of the options has to do with limitations. We are talking about the assurance of salvation.

So, when you are asking “which is it?” are you setting the Scriptures agains the Council?

Creating false dichotomies will not help readers reach an informed conclusion, do you think?

Two words you like a lot:

false dichotomies

I said readers could come to their own conclusions regarding what either you or I think.
As far as an informed conclusion?

Which of the two of us is a Professor of Theology?

 

[Seekerjn316]

One will believe what one will.

I believe what I believe.
I believe it’s what the bible teaches.
I believe I’m correct.
I beleive Christ, on the last day, will judge me by what I believe.
I believe He is just and will take all into consideration.

I believe I no longer wish to debate this with you.
I believe you are allowed to believe what you will.

In all fairness to you, I DO believe you misunderstood my post below:

Knowing Christ, he knew his future destiny, while also knowing his own limitations. So he strove.

Speaking of Paul.

So which is it? Knowing Christ allowed Paul to know his destiny or
Trent taught against the notion that we could know we’re saved because we believe in our faith.

I wasn’t disagreeing with the concept of knowing Christ AND knowing our limitations. Do you think I don’t know my limitatins?? Seems like everything I post is affirming this!

I was comparing those two concepts TOGETHER with what the council of trent said.

I just can’t keep going on forever about this. Just believe what you will. Readers are not stupid - they could come to their own conclusions with no help from either me or you.

---

 

[guanophore]

Two words you like a lot:

false dichotomies

On the contrary, I find the either/or
black/white phrasing of your statements about the Catholic faith distressing.

I said readers could come to their own conclusions regarding what either you or I think. As far as an informed conclusion?

Yes. When a Catholic Catechist posts such false dichotomies, it presents an impediment to learning.

Which of the two of us is a Professor of Theology?

Yet another false dichotomy?

Or are you saying that a person cannot indulge in the erroneous logic process of the false dichotomy unless they are a Professor of Theology?

Or that only a professor of Theology can correct you on creating them?

A false dichotomy does not necessarily have anything to do with religion or theology. One can pit to positions against one another that are not, in fact, opposed, on any subject.

When you ask the question “which is it, assurance of salvation or …” it appears that you are setting these two elements against one another, as if only one can be true.

 

[frangiuliano115]

On the contrary, I find the either/or
black/white phrasing of your statements about the Catholic faith distressing.

Yes. When a Catholic Catechist posts such false dichotomies, it presents an impediment to learning.

Yet another false dichotomy?

Or are you saying that a person cannot indulge in the erroneous logic process of the false dichotomy unless they are a Professor of Theology?

Or that only a professor of Theology can correct you on creating them?

A false dichotomy does not necessarily have anything to do with religion or theology. One can pit to positions against one another that are not, in fact, opposed, on any subject.

When you ask the question “which is it, assurance of salvation or …” it appears that you are setting these two elements against one another, as if only one can be true.

Oh for goodness sake.

When did I ever present myself here as an authoratavie catechist?

I’ve said on several occasins that I’m not here in any capacity other than as an independent human adult with my own opinions.

Just as you have yours apparently.

Thanks for explaining what a dichotomy is. How did I ever get along before this?

 

[Wannano]

Oh for goodness sake.

When did I ever present myself here as an authoratavie catechist?

I’ve said on several occasins that I’m not here in any capacity other than as an independent human adult with my own opinions.

Just as you have yours apparently.

Thanks for explaining what a dichotomy is. How did I ever get along before this?

 

[Wannano]

Oh for goodness sake.

When did I ever present myself here as an authoratavie catechist?

I’ve said on several occasins that I’m not here in any capacity other than as an independent human adult with my own opinions.

Just as you have yours apparently.

Thanks for explaining what a dichotomy is. How did I ever get along before this?

Fran, don’t get discouraged. Read 2 Peter 1:4-15.

 

[guanophore]

Oh for goodness sake.

When did I ever present myself here as an authoratavie catechist?

Several times, in fact. If you wish, I can direct you to the posts.

A Catholic catechist is invested with the authority given by the Church to accurately echo the faith.

I’ve said on several occasins that I’m not here in any capacity other than as an independent human adult with my own opinions.

Yes, after several confrontations about posting content that appears to misrepresent the faith…

Just as you have yours apparently.

For which I have been just as accountable by other members as well as moderators.

Thanks for explaining what a dichotomy is. How did I ever get along before this?

Sometimes I wonder.

If you are accustomed to teaching children, who typically think in black and white, then you are likely in your element.

 

[guanophore]

Fran, don’t get discouraged. Read 2 Peter 1:4-15.

This is a very good passage for study on this topic of assurance of salvation.

"…by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 **For this very reason, make every effort **to supplement your faith with virtue,[e] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities[f] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers,[g] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "

Peter makes it clear that the “evidence” of our being in saving grace is the fruit of the Spirit, the growth in character. He enjoins the faithful to “make every effort”. This pertains to a long standing debate about the relationship between faith and works.

It also pertains to several posts Fran has made about the need to trust Jesus rather than following “rules”. The disciplines of the Church exist to help us “make every effort” to supplement our faith in these ways. Working out our salvation is not contrary to putting our faith in Christ.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Fran, don’t get discouraged. Read 2 Peter 1:4-15.

Read. Thanks.
It’s nice to be edifying to one another.

Fran

 

[KathleenGee]

There is a line or two in a psalm that what is most pleasing to God is when we are on trembling knee.

We acknowledge our failure but put our trust in the Lord’s mercy…but we tremble just the same.

 

[spedteacherita]

There is a line or two in a psalm that what is most pleasing to God is when we are on trembling knee.

We acknowledge our failure but put our trust in the Lord’s mercy…but we tremble just the same.

Yes, true. We are told in 1 John that Jesus is our advocate - defending us because of our confession of our sinfulness. That is such a comforting verse. It is important to be conscious of our sins and to continually to confess these sins to God. I have confidence that if I die tonight I will be in Paradise checking out my new digs that Jesus is preparing for us.

Those who believe in OSAS are fooling themselves and must be gently corrected by the Word to show that God expects us to be continually aware of our sinful nature and that we must confess all sins to our Heavenly Father.

God bless all!

Rita

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for your great post, Rita…will apply your devotion to our Lord.

 

[eazyduzit]

There is a line or two in a psalm that what is most pleasing to God is when we are on trembling knee.

We acknowledge our failure but put our trust in the Lord’s mercy…but we tremble just the same.

I searched for that verse and got Ps2:11 which says to “rejoice with trembling” which really means to have a healthy respect. Is that the verse you were thinking of? It is my belief that God is most pleased when we act by faith such as in Heb10:19 “Having therefore brethren, BOLDNESS to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,” Coming to God by faith pleases Him.

Also i offer Heb10:2 “…the worshippers once purged should have no more conscience of sins”

Shalom

Jerry

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Jerry, Thanks. I was praying the Liturgy of the Hours a while back…cannot do it daily. Do you know what it is? It will have antiphons , or one liners of praise from the psalms then go on to a psalm…it was in Ordinary Time…I thought it was a line from one of the psalms in the 60’s…and I think it included the use of one’s knee…I mean, it reflects a healthy fear of the Lord, He alone having the power to accept us or dump us. So all we can do is our best and trust in His mercy, He filling up our weaknesses and failings and omissions.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi Jerry, Thanks. I was praying the Liturgy of the Hours a while back…cannot do it daily. Do you know what it is? It will have antiphons , or one liners of praise from the psalms then go on to a psalm…it was in Ordinary Time…I thought it was a line from one of the psalms in the 60’s…and I think it included the use of one’s knee…I mean, it reflects a healthy fear of the Lord, He alone having the power to accept us or dump us. So all we can do is our best and trust in His mercy, He filling up our weaknesses and failings and omissions.

KathleenGee

You’ve sent me on a search mission!
But I can’t find the verse you’re talking about.

The closest I come to it is Psalm 66:16 and 95:6

It’s speaking about kneeling and fearing the Lord - but not together in one verse.
Of course, we know that fear means respecting and honoring God with all our heart, much as in the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit - one is Fear of the Lord. But it doesn’t mean to be afraid of Him, as we use the word “fear” today.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

 

[Wannano]

KathleenGee

You’ve sent me on a search mission!
But I can’t find the verse you’re talking about.

The closest I come to it is Psalm 66:16 and 95:6

It’s speaking about kneeling and fearing the Lord - but not together in one verse.
Of course, we know that fear means respecting and honoring God with all our heart, much as in the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit - one is Fear of the Lord. But it doesn’t mean to be afraid of Him, as we use the word “fear” today.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Fran, I missed you all day yesterday, glad to see you are still there!

 

[KathleenGee]

I would have to get back to the Liturgy of the Hours and it was very brief…but very powerful.

We are sinners always in need of the Lord and so we can never be rest assured in our own sense of being Christian. I think of the sin of presumption.

I think it is 66:16.