Assurance of Salvation

[frangiuliano115]

Might be the same thing?
Sin is separation from God chosen by free will.

Maybe I’m using incorrect words.

By sin, I mean when we “fall” - you get back up and keep going.
You have not abandoned God.

By abandoning God, I mean that you decide, by your will, that you are not going to “believe” God anymore, you don’t want Him in your life anymore, you turn away from God, you’re not sorry, thusly, for your sins since you no longer want any part of Him.

I do believe this is two different concepts.

Fran

 

[Michael68]

This is the conclusion I have come to. I found no assurance of salvation in Calvinism, and I don’t think there was really any intent to provide that assurance through Calvinism. The Protestant Work Ethic is based on “work[ing] out your own salvation with fear and trembling”

I’ve never been comfortable with the predominantly Southern Baptist notion of OSAS. Since most of them are not Calvinists, they don’t have the “perseverance of the saints” escape clause. They Iare forced to believe that once you are saved, there is nothing you can do to reverse that. Nice thought, but there’s too much in the Bible that contradicts it.

I have come across Protestants that believe after they say their salvation prayer, that’s it and anything else is Law. They do nothing for the Kingdom of God since they have been taught any move toward God is “works” and “law”. So very sad!

 

[frangiuliano115]

Always thought of it as the human tendency to stray which usually ends up with sin.

Then I certainly agree with the scripture you posted!

Just hope that by “stray” it means the person is not leaving forever!!

Fran

 

[Wannano]

Maybe I’m using incorrect words.

By sin, I mean when we “fall” - you get back up and keep going.
You have not abandoned God.

By abandoning God, I mean that you decide, by your will, that you are not going to “believe” God anymore, you don’t want Him in your life anymore, you turn away from God, you’re not sorry, thusly, for your sins since you no longer want any part of Him.

I do believe this is two different concepts.

Fran

Totally not the second concept…that is not falling it is more like jumping off…

 

[frangiuliano115]

I have come across Protestants that believe after they say their salvation prayer, that’s it and anything else is Law. They do nothing for the Kingdom of God since they have been taught any move toward God is “works” and “law”. So very sad!

There is such a thing as works and law.

I get grief about this on these threads.

It’s just that some people use “works” and “Law” as an excuse not to do anything!

But, know what? God knows the heart. You could tell yourself something is works just because you don’t want to do it - but the bible is full of verses that say a change is the best sign of salvation.

“You shall know a tree by its fruit”.

Works and Law are necessary. We are saved by faith and works are a result. James.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Totally not the second concept…that is not falling it is more like jumping off…

I like that!

 

[fhansen]

The problem with those who insist absolutely they are saved, is that they are the ones fundamentally making the judgement. They read the scripture that says the faithful will be alive in Christ. They then judge themselves to be faithful, therefore they must be saved and have assurance of salvation. It’s very self determined by those who confess themselves OSAS.

Yes, and Trent taught specifically against that notion-that we can know we’re saved just because we believe in our faith so to speak.

 

[clem456]

In it’s essence salvation is being united to a person, having a relationship with Christ. Not performing good works, or being good, or having faith (all of which are evidence that we know Jesus Christ). So you could say that a person who knows Christ will also do good works and has faith. But a person might do good works and not necessarily know Christ.

Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor are yours almighty Father…

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes, and Trent taught specifically against that notion-that we can know we’re saved just because we believe in our faith so to speak.

I’m going to drop this, but I see you around often and, I must say, you do confuse me.

In your post no. 51, you say:

Knowing Christ, he knew his future destiny, while also knowing his own limitations. So he strove.

Speaking of Paul.

So which is it? Knowing Christ allowed Paul to know his destiny or
Trent taught** against** the notion that we could know we’re saved because we believe in our faith.

What are we to believe in - our own good works?
Isn’t Trent the council that declared that there’s no salvation outside the church?
Can’t remember. But that has changed too.

Now if your reply is that we have to cooperate - I agree.

But what do we teach our kids? To follow the rules
Or to get to know Jesus?

If they follow all the rules but are atheist - are they saved?
If they follow Jesus and miss some of the rules - are they saved?

This isn’t so much for you but for those reading along who might be a bit mixed up.

 

[fhansen]

I’m going to drop this, but I see you around often and, I must say, you do confuse me.

In your post no. 51, you say:

Knowing Christ, he knew his future destiny, while also knowing his own limitations. So he strove.

Speaking of Paul.

So which is it? Knowing Christ allowed Paul to know his destiny or
Trent taught** against** the notion that we could know we’re saved because we believe in our faith.

What are we to believe in - our own good works?
Isn’t Trent the council that declared that there’s no salvation outside the church?
Can’t remember. But that has changed too.

Now if your reply is that we have to cooperate - I agree.

But what do we teach our kids? To follow the rules
Or to get to know Jesus?

If they follow all the rules but are atheist - are they saved?
If they follow Jesus and miss some of the rules - are they saved?

This isn’t so much for you but for those reading along who might be a bit mixed up.

It’s not either/or; it’s both. We teach them to follow Christ and we inform them of the rules that were all obligated to obey. We have a confidence in our salvation and we live in a state of vigilance, over the way we live out our following of Him. That’s simply the honest truth of the situation we find ourselves in.

What Trent taught against was that we can necessarily rely on our own self-assessment regarding the sufficiency of our faith to save us. Modern Catholic teaching on justification is based largely on Trent’s teachings. They’re quite balanced and edifying to read IMO.

 

[frangiuliano115]

It’s not either/or; it’s both. We teach them to follow Christ and we inform them of the rules that were all obligated to obey. We have a confidence in our salvation and we live in a state of vigilance, over the way we live out our following of Him. That’s simply the honest truth of the situation we find ourselves in.

Olay.

As an adult, let me say that I have more faith in Jesus
than I’ll ever have in myself!

In Christ
Fran

 

[fhansen]

Olay.

As an adult, let me say that I have more faith in Jesus
than I’ll ever have in myself!

In Christ
Fran

Amen. We’re probably not far off. In the end I’ll let God be my judge, trusting that He’ll be infinitely just and merciful in whatever He decides. Meanwhile I’ll try to do my best

 

[fhansen]

Olay.

As an adult, let me say that I have more faith in Jesus
than I’ll ever have in myself!

In Christ
Fran

What I applaud in your statements is the understanding that we must distance ourselves from the notion that man’s fate is in the hands of an angry God Who’d probably prefer sending our sorry, wormy, undeserving carcasses to hell rather than bother with the effort it takes to save us. In Catholicism this can play itself out in the scrupulous fear of committing a mortal sin and not making it to confession-where God must send us to hell on a virtual technicality as if He couldn’t weigh all the circumstances of our lives and judge us by the heart, as Scripture tells us He does. The categorization of sin into grave and less than grave is useful but can easily be abused-and has been abused- in our Church. And this betrays a misunderstanding of God’s very nature. It actually harkens back to the misconception of God that our first ancestors obtained with their sin: a “distorted image” as the catechism teaches. I think we’re all on a path of correcting that distortion-and it can take time. As *we *become more perfected/transformed by God-even slightly- our image of Him becomes clearer-and more accurate.

 

[clem456]

I can’t recommend the writings of Romano Guardini highly enough, if one wants to explore the personal relationship we are called to in Jesus Christ.
“The Lord”
“The Virtues that Lead Us to God”
“The Lord’s Prayer”

He is not real well known with many Catholic laypeople but his writing influenced Francis, Benedict, and John Paul.

The teaching of the Catholic Church should always point us to relationship with Christ, not to observance of rules for our own benefit. Attainment of salvation is not just risk/reward, it is coming to know a person and spend a lot of time (or non-time, in the case of eternity) with Him.
The rules, the works, the faith, all are at the service of love.

 

[frangiuliano115]

What I applaud in your statements is the understanding that we must distance ourselves from the notion that man’s fate is in the hands of an angry God Who’d probably prefer sending our sorry, wormy, undeserving carcasses to hell rather than bother with the effort it takes to save us. In Catholicism this can play itself out in the scrupulous fear of committing a mortal sin and not making it to confession-where God must send us to hell on a virtual technicality as if He couldn’t weigh all the circumstances of our lives and judge us by the heart, as Scripture tells us He does. The categorization of sin into grave and less than grave is useful but can easily be abused-and has been abused- in our Church. And this betrays a misunderstanding of God’s very nature. It actually harkens back to the misconception of God that our first ancestors obtained with their sin: a “distorted image” as the catechism teaches. I think we’re all on a path of correcting that distortion-and it can take time. As *we *become more perfected/transformed by God-even slightly- our image of Him becomes clearer-and more accurate.

AMEN!

Thank you for explaining it so well.

I know that when I post it’s understood by many that I’m saying it’s okay to sin or not follow rules,etc. but actually I’m saying what you just did. You just explain yourself so much better. Teachers know how to say things well.

I believe that Pope Francis is trying to make this point too.

I encounter a lot of what I call legalism here. That’s different from traditional catholicism.

I’m assaulted many times, but i’ll stand firm for what I know is right.

Maybe the church has changed somewhat in its presentation of God and some are having a problem with this. A couple of my friends for instance.

I’m an older person and it was all hell fire and brimstone when I was growing up. It was all rules and regulations. Then one day when I was about 28 I met someone named Jesus and my life was changed. And everything He told me worked. I was married already with two children. I wasn’t an addict, I didn’t smoke, faithful, and I’d say a modest person. But there was a transformation inside. I really believed now.

I don’t post back and forth - nothing could be worth the time it takes. But when I come across “legalists” that are trying to get themselves to heaven under their own steam, I kind of feel sorry for them and wish they could feel as I do - or at least understand it.

So, there it is. A personal post. Just to explain why I insist on this so much. It’s not because I’m here with nothing to do.

Your patience and understanding is appreciated.

Fran
P.S. I don’t mean that you’re a legalist - it was just nice that we could understand each other-

 

[frangiuliano115]

I can’t recommend the writings of Romano Guardini highly enough, if one wants to explore the personal relationship we are called to in Jesus Christ.
“The Lord”
“The Virtues that Lead Us to God”
“The Lord’s Prayer”

He is not real well known with many Catholic laypeople but his writing influenced Francis, Benedict, and John Paul.

The teaching of the Catholic Church should always point us to relationship with Christ, not to observance of rules for our own benefit. Attainment of salvation is not just risk/reward, it is coming to know a person and spend a lot of time (or non-time, in the case of eternity) with Him.
The rules, the works, the faith, all are at the service of love.

Hope I can find these books here - will be trying to get them.

Thanks for posting the titles.

Fran

 

[guanophore]

In your post no. 51:

Knowing Christ, he knew his future destiny, while also knowing his own limitations. So he strove.

Speaking of Paul.

So which is it? Knowing Christ allowed Paul to know his destiny or
Trent taught** against** the notion that we could know we’re saved because we believe in our faith.

This is another false dichotomy. It is BOTH!

I Pet. 1:Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.…

Every baptized person has an inheritance that is kept undefiled in heaven from the moment we are united to Him.

Yet not all will persevere and be ultimately united with that inheritance.

2 Pet. 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For** if these qualities are yours and are increasing,** they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren,** be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you**; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

We can know the signs of growing in holiness, and have confidence by His great and precious promises that we are on the right path, but ultimately, we are not qualified to judge ourselves.

What are we to believe in - our own good works?

Do you think Peter is describing “our own good works” in the above passage?

Isn’t Trent the council that declared that there’s no salvation outside the church?
Can’t remember. But that has changed too.

No, Fran, please to not misrepresent the faith of the Church! EENS is an infallible teaching of the Church, and cannot be changed! It makes me crazy when you deny the doctrines of the Church.

But what do we teach our kids? To follow the rules
Or to get to know Jesus?

This isn’t so much for you but for those reading along who might be a bit mixed up.

I think the creation of these false dichotomies is what creates confusion!

 

[eazyduzit]

This is another false dichotomy. It is BOTH!

I Pet. 1:Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.…

Every baptized person has an inheritance that is kept undefiled in heaven from the moment we are united to Him.

Yet not all will persevere and be ultimately united with that inheritance.

2 Pet. 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For** if these qualities are yours and are increasing,** they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren,** be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you**; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

We can know the signs of growing in holiness, and have confidence by His great and precious promises that we are on the right path, but ultimately, we are not qualified to judge ourselves.

Do you think Peter is describing “our own good works” in the above passage?

No, Fran, please to not misrepresent the faith of the Church! EENS is an infallible teaching of the Church, and cannot be changed! It makes me crazy when you deny the doctrines of the Church.

I think the creation of these false dichotomies is what creates confusion!

I don’t think the “both and” answer works well for questions of faith. It is being double minded. Faith requires that we be fully convinced. Abraham was fully persuaded that he was the father of many nations, even before he had a son. It was not “both and”. When it comes to healing,we believe that we have been healed and nothing less. “Both and” does not reflect a full confidence which is what faith needs to be.

My faith is not in my performance but in God’s. Jesus is The Good Shepherd and He does not fail. He does not come back and make an excuse that a certain sheep was too wayward and uncontrollable.

For this guy it’s not about trying but trusting.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think the “both and” answer works well for questions of faith. It is being double minded. Faith requires that we be fully convinced. Abraham was fully persuaded that he was the father of many nations, even before he had a son. It was not “both and”. When it comes to healing,we believe that we have been healed and nothing less. “Both and” does not reflect a full confidence which is what faith needs to be.

My faith is not in my performance but in God’s. Jesus is The Good Shepherd and He does not fail. He does not come back and make an excuse that a certain sheep was too wayward and uncontrollable.

Of course it does, Eazy! Seeing and accepting both sides of a coin does not make a person “double minded”.

In your post no. 51, you say:

Knowing Christ, he knew his future destiny, while also knowing his own limitations. So he strove.

Speaking of Paul.

So which is it? Knowing Christ allowed Paul to know his destiny or
Trent taught** against** the notion that we could know we’re saved because we believe in our faith.

But what do we teach our kids? To follow the rules
Or to get to know Jesus?

There is no reason that one cannot strive, knowing in Whom he believes.

There is no reason that we need to teach our kids to know Jesus at the expense of rules. Both can be done, as Jesus said “if you love me, you will keep my commandments.” Setting these against one another as “either/or” “which is it” creates a false dichotomy.

Fully trusting in Jesus for our salvation does not mean we throw out the rules.

 

[frangiuliano115]

This is another false dichotomy. It is BOTH!

I Pet. 1:Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.…

Every baptized person has an inheritance that is kept undefiled in heaven from the moment we are united to Him.

Yet not all will persevere and be ultimately united with that inheritance.

2 Pet. 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For** if these qualities are yours and are increasing,** they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren,** be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you**; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

We can know the signs of growing in holiness, and have confidence by His great and precious promises that we are on the right path, but ultimately, we are not qualified to judge ourselves.

Do you think Peter is describing “our own good works” in the above passage?

No, Fran, please to not misrepresent the faith of the Church! EENS is an infallible teaching of the Church, and cannot be changed! It makes me crazy when you deny the doctrines of the Church.

I think the creation of these false dichotomies is what creates confusion!

One will believe what one will.

I believe what I believe.
I believe it’s what the bible teaches.
I believe I’m correct.
I beleive Christ, on the last day, will judge me by what I believe.
I believe He is just and will take all into consideration.

I believe I no longer wish to debate this with you.
I believe you are allowed to believe what you will.

In all fairness to you, I DO believe you misunderstood my post below:

Knowing Christ, he knew his future destiny, while also knowing his own limitations. So he strove.

Speaking of Paul.

So which is it? Knowing Christ allowed Paul to know his destiny or
Trent taught against the notion that we could know we’re saved because we believe in our faith.

I wasn’t disagreeing with the concept of knowing Christ AND knowing our limitations. Do you think I don’t know my limitatins?? Seems like everything I post is affirming this!

I was comparing those two concepts TOGETHER with what the council of trent said.

I just can’t keep going on forever about this. Just believe what you will. Readers are not stupid - they could come to their own conclusions with no help from either me or you.

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