Assurance of Salvation

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frangiuliano115 said:
Reader’s Digest Version: Protestants do believe salvation can be lost.

I just hope I didn’t misunderstand YOU and carried on for nothing!!

Fran
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You’re not disturbing. 😉 It’s a free-for-all.

It’s helpful to have some clarifications. I think I was confused because the other day I was speaking with my mother-in-law, who is Baptist. She had a nephew who had been Jehovah’s Witness, and he didn’t believe that we can do anything we want and still be assured of salvation. She essentially said that we don’t lose our salvation. So, I inferred from that that she might believe in OSAS. (Her mother, when she first learned about me, told her that Catholics aren’t Christian. That gives a little idea of context.) All I said is that I had an Evangelical college-friend who didn’t think we couldn’t lose our salvation, and that I was surprised by that. She didn’t respond, except later on to say that so long as we all believe in the Trinity, we all just have minor disagreements.

Given that my husband is a convert, this is a delicate area of conversation, so I usually agree where we can and listen where we don’t. So, I haven’t followed up; I try to let them or circumstances bring it up. The opportunity may present itself again.
 
fhansen said:
The issue is that we’re the wildcard, not Him. We simply cannot presume that we will persevere, even as we trust in the goodness, mercy, and love of God. Providing that we continue to walk in faith and hope and love, living accordingly, following and obeying Him, then of course we can have assurance in our hope of eternal life. But that will not happen without our striving, without our vigilance, without our persevering, without doing our part in the process. Its a matter of emphasis IMO. God will always be there. Will we always respond to Him?.
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A beautiful summary fhansen, and one any believer should be able to agree with.
 
IGotQuestions said:
Do Roman Catholics think that those who believe in ‘assurance of salvation,’ also believe they have a license to sin?
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Do Catholics think that…
Who knows? Some might, some might not think that.

I fail to see the point of the question. It’s not just a matter of those other people who believe in presumption…some Catholics believe they have license to sin in the name of God’s mercy.
So…
🤷
 
TCEL said:
You’re not disturbing. 😉 It’s a free-for-all.

It’s helpful to have some clarifications. I think I was confused because the other day I was speaking with my mother-in-law, who is Baptist. She had a nephew who had been Jehovah’s Witness, and he didn’t believe that we can do anything we want and still be assured of salvation. She essentially said that we don’t lose our salvation. So, I inferred from that that she might believe in OSAS. (Her mother, when she first learned about me, told her that Catholics aren’t Christian. That gives a little idea of context.) All I said is that I had an Evangelical college-friend who didn’t think we couldn’t lose our salvation, and that I was surprised by that. She didn’t respond, except later on to say that so long as we all believe in the Trinity, we all just have minor disagreements.

Given that my husband is a convert, this is a delicate area of conversation, so I usually agree where we can and listen where we don’t. So, I haven’t followed up; I try to let them or circumstances bring it up. The opportunity may present itself again.
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You’re a wise person TCL. Waiting for the right opportunity, agreeing where you can and just listening when you can’t. Being disagreeable with non-catholics leads to nothing good. As you said, some don’t even believe catholics are christian.

So your mom-in-law is Baptist, so she believes you can never lose your salvation. And if someone does something really horrible, she’ll say they were never saved in the first place - as has been noted by others on this thread.

The Jehovah Witness was right - we can’t just do whatever we want.

I wouldn’t say that OSAS is a minor disagreement! I’d say it’s very fundamental to the rest of how you think of theology - it affects everything you believe.

When speaking to non-catholics just talk a lot about Jesus and how good He was to go to the cross for us and die so our sins could be forgiven and how much you love HIm and love following Him.

If they still tell you you’re not christian, just cut the conversation because the problem is THEIRS!

God Bless
Fran
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Well, you know what we say:

We ARE saved
We are BEING saved
We WILL BE saved
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Frangiuliano you are 2/3 right a Catholic can say I have been saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved. The only way one can know with assurance they will be saved, as we don’t know the future, is if God reveals that to the individual. Otherwise as scripture tells us we live by hope.

[Rms8:24 For **we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.]

[Phillipians3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 **Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.]
 
frangiuliano115 said:
i believe Seeker is agreeing with me that we can have assurance of our salvation at the foot of the cross.

Other than that:

👍
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Another.favorite hymn.comes.to.mind from your post

“I stand amazed in the Presence, of Jesus the Nazarene, and wonder how he could love me, a sinner condemned unclean…how wonderful, how marvelous, and my will always be, how wonderfu, how marvelous is my Saviors love for.me.”

To the topic of.lacknof humility and presumption…neither ofnthose is close to the truth.

I bow before the Father in awe and humility when He calls me His child…I do.notmpresume on Godsngrace and mercy, I claim it as Truth because He has spoken and declared my sonship, I do not presume, I claim His Promise and trust in the Word. Big difference.
 
I was raised reformed Protestant. I was taught that once you are saved, i.e. you have the born-again experience, you can truly be assured of your salvation. When people fell away from the faith, i.e. returned to a sinful lifestyle or abandoned belief, I was taught that this was because that person was never saved to begin with. For someone who believes in assurance of salvation, this is an easy way of coping with apostasy. Unfortunately, in a big way this undermines the whole idea of assurance of salvation to begin with, because many people, including myself, very much experienced being “born again” in the Protestant sense and had a true and genuine faith but fell away later in life. So I came to the conclusion, as did another Calvinist friend of mine, that you can’t really be truly assured of your salvation because you never know if your born again experience is legitimate or not. Indeed, this view of salvation is what Calvin actually taught. Pilgrim/puritan style calvinists believed that you had to look for evidence that you are “elect” (i.e. one of God’s chosen, predestined for eternal life) by your actions and lifestyle. There was no notion of assurance of salvation as it is understood today.

If you read the scriptures, including the gospels and the letters of St. Paul, there is a very strong case that Christians are very capable of falling away, and that one must persevere in order to find their salvation. (See John 15, 1 Corinthians 10:12)
 
We should be confident and hopeful of salvation. I try to live this way.
Confident is con-fide, or “with faith”. I try to give my 100% faith, my trust, my assent, to Jesus Christ, His grace is sufficient for me, so I have no need to be anxious for my salvation. He offers it, my responsibility is to respond. (In actual practice, I have lot’s of anxiety because I sin a lot and my eyes are diverted).

I try not to presume salvation as if it were my possession. I trust in Christ’s grace to draw me towards him. Whatever else you can say about sin, it robs us of this confidence and hope in Christ, and turns us inward on ourselves, instead of looking at salvation.
 
jlhargus said:
Frangiuliano you are 2/3 right a Catholic can say I have been saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved. The only way one can know with assurance they will be saved, as we don’t know the future, is if God reveals that to the individual. Otherwise as scripture tells us we live by hope.

[Rms8:24 For **we are saved by hope
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: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.]

[Phillipians3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 **Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.]

First of all, when I read something that goes against everything else in scripture, bells go off. This is what I read that made me take heed:
“For we are saved by HOPE.”
Right away I have to ask what Paul is talking about since I believe I’m saved by faith.
So the hope must be referring to something else.

The heading of Romans 8 in the bible at hand (I have many) is Future Glory. Romans 8:18-25 is speaking of the resurrection and how much more glory there will be in that compared to what we now have.

Also my bible reads for 8:24:
“For in this hope we were saved” The hope of future glory from the beginning of time when Adam sinned and God provided the hope for our salvation.

So, we hope to attain that future glory. To obtain it we must persevere.

Pilippians 3:10 is speaking about being Christlike. Paul is saying he wants to forget his past life of sin and march onward to attain the resurrection of the dead. He uses the word, Somehow, do you think it means that he doesn’t know how to get saved? I think he just means that he’ll persevere, keeping his faith in christ, whatever it takes.

I do agree that we have to persevere. But if I can only Hope to be saved, it does not square with the rest of scripture. You’re either a child of God or you’re not. If the bible teaches me that I can be, then where does this hope come in?

Check out Paul’s greeing in Phil 1:1 He calls God, Father. He sounds sure of Himself. He does this in every book.
See Phil 1:6
“Being confident that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.”
The Work is salvific work - which is carried on (as long as it is accepted, of course).
See Phil 1:11
Phil 1:29
Fear and Trembling: - revere God and be confident and continue in purpose
This reminds me of the 7 gifts of the H. S. One is Fear of the Lord but it doesn’t mean to be afraid of God, it just means to respect Him and honor Him and revere Him.
He ends the book with “the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.”
Think about what grace is. If we have God’s grace, can we not have some assurance?

I like talking about scripture, I could go on forever. I mean, I could list MANY scriptures that attest that we can depend on Jesus for our salvation. But we do have to keep our faith and trust in Jesus till the end (of our life).

I think there’s a misunderstanding with persevering till the end. We can’t know if we’ll be saved at the END of our lives because we might decide to abandon God. You’re right about that. But we can be sure of our salvation at this moment.

If you prefer not to believe that, we can still be brothers in Christ. But I think this is important because we can have more joy knowing that Jesus IS saving us at this very moment and that if we Persevere (keep going with Him) He will save us till the end.

I like posts no. 45 and 47. But I’m a girl and talk more. Hope you don’t mind!

Fran
 
CompSciGuy said:
I was raised reformed Protestant. I was taught that once you are saved, i.e. you have the born-again experience, you can truly be assured of your salvation. When people fell away from the faith, i.e. returned to a sinful lifestyle or abandoned belief, I was taught that this was because that person was never saved to begin with. For someone who believes in assurance of salvation, this is an easy way of coping with apostasy. Unfortunately, in a big way this undermines the whole idea of assurance of salvation to begin with, because many people, including myself, very much experienced being “born again” in the Protestant sense and had a true and genuine faith but fell away later in life.** So I came to the conclusion, as did another Calvinist friend of mine, that you can’t really be truly assured of your salvation because you never know if your born again experience is legitimate or not**. Indeed, this view of salvation is what Calvin actually taught. Pilgrim/puritan style calvinists believed that you had to look for evidence that you are “elect” (i.e. one of God’s chosen, predestined for eternal life) by your actions and lifestyle. There was no notion of assurance of salvation as it is understood today.

If you read the scriptures, including the gospels and the letters of St. Paul, there is a very strong case that Christians are very capable of falling away, and that one must persevere in order to find their salvation. (See John 15, 1 Corinthians 10:12)
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Calvin did make a mess, didn’t he?

Your last pp is correct, of course. But do you agree that you could have assurance right now? That assurance comes from Jesus sacrifice to attain your salvation.

And the second sentence bolded. I’d say that we catholics look for a sign too! Jesus changes your life. There SHOULD be some outward change of an inner condition. If I believe in Christ internally, there should be some external sign.

If we can’t trust God, who can we trust??
But we do have to trust in Him and follow the Lord.

Maybe we’ve come to the bottom of the story!

Fran
 
frangiuliano115 said:
First of all, when I read something that goes against everything else in scripture, bells go off. This is what I read that made me take heed:
“For we are saved by HOPE.”
Right away I have to ask what Paul is talking about since I believe I’m saved by faith.
So the hope must be referring to something else.

The heading of Romans 8 in the bible at hand (I have many) is Future Glory. Romans 8:18-25 is speaking of the resurrection and how much more glory there will be in that compared to what we now have.

Also my bible reads for 8:24:
“For in this hope we were saved” The hope of future glory from the beginning of time when Adam sinned and God provided the hope for our salvation.

So, we hope to attain that future glory. To obtain it we must persevere.

Pilippians 3:10 is speaking about being Christlike. Paul is saying he wants to forget his past life of sin and march onward to attain the resurrection of the dead. He uses the word, Somehow, do you think it means that he doesn’t know how to get saved? I think he just means that he’ll persevere, keeping his faith in christ, whatever it takes.

I do agree that we have to persevere. But if I can only Hope to be saved, it does not square with the rest of scripture. You’re either a child of God or you’re not. If the bible teaches me that I can be, then where does this hope come in?

Check out Paul’s greeing in Phil 1:1 He calls God, Father. He sounds sure of Himself. He does this in every book.
See Phil 1:6
“Being confident that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.”
The Work is salvific work - which is carried on (as long as it is accepted, of course).
See Phil 1:11
Phil 1:29
Fear and Trembling: - revere God and be confident and continue in purpose
This reminds me of the 7 gifts of the H. S. One is Fear of the Lord but it doesn’t mean to be afraid of God, it just means to respect Him and honor Him and revere Him.
He ends the book with “the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.”
Think about what grace is. If we have God’s grace, can we not have some assurance?

I like talking about scripture, I could go on forever. I mean, I could list MANY scriptures that attest that we can depend on Jesus for our salvation. But we do have to keep our faith and trust in Jesus till the end (of our life).

I think there’s a misunderstanding with persevering till the end. We can’t know if we’ll be saved at the END of our lives because we might decide to abandon God. You’re right about that. But we can be sure of our salvation at this moment.

If you prefer not to believe that, we can still be brothers in Christ. But I think this is important because we can have more joy knowing that Jesus IS saving us at this very moment and that if we Persevere (keep going with Him) He will save us till the end.

I like posts no. 45 and 47. But I’m a girl and talk more. Hope you don’t mind!

Fran
Click to expand...
In Catholic teaching, the virtue of hope is more akin to “confidence”. When Protestants, and often Catholics as well as Scripture, speak of faith, they generally mean a conflation of the two virtues. Paul probably wasn’t meaning anything much different by using the term “hope” than he would with “faith”, just emphasizing the future aspect of the goal of our faith. But that said, I don’t believe Paul had more than a very strong confidence. Knowing Christ, he knew his future destiny, while also knowing his own limitations. So he strove.
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Calvin did make a mess, didn’t he?

Your last pp is correct, of course. But do you agree that you could have assurance right now? That assurance comes from Jesus sacrifice to attain your salvation.

And the second sentence bolded. I’d say that we catholics look for a sign too! Jesus changes your life. There SHOULD be some outward change of an inner condition. If I believe in Christ internally, there should be some external sign.

If we can’t trust God, who can we trust??
But we do have to trust in Him and follow the Lord.

Maybe we’ve come to the bottom of the story!

Fran
Click to expand...
Now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24 & 25.
 
The problem with those who insist absolutely they are saved, is that they are the ones fundamentally making the judgement. They read the scripture that says the faithful will be alive in Christ. They then judge themselves to be faithful, therefore they must be saved and have assurance of salvation. It’s very self determined by those who confess themselves OSAS.
 
Wannano said:
Now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24 & 25.
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By “falling” do you understand it to mean sins
or abandonment of God?
 
CompSciGuy said:
I was raised reformed Protestant. I was taught that once you are saved, i.e. you have the born-again experience, you can truly be assured of your salvation. When people fell away from the faith, i.e. returned to a sinful lifestyle or abandoned belief, I was taught that this was because that person was never saved to begin with. For someone who believes in assurance of salvation, this is an easy way of coping with apostasy. Unfortunately, in a big way this undermines the whole idea of assurance of salvation to begin with, because many people, including myself, very much experienced being “born again” in the Protestant sense and had a true and genuine faith but fell away later in life. So I came to the conclusion, as did another Calvinist friend of mine, that you can’t really be truly assured of your salvation because you never know if your born again experience is legitimate or not. Indeed, this view of salvation is what Calvin actually taught. Pilgrim/puritan style calvinists believed that you had to look for evidence that you are “elect” (i.e. one of God’s chosen, predestined for eternal life) by your actions and lifestyle. There was no notion of assurance of salvation as it is understood today.

If you read the scriptures, including the gospels and the letters of St. Paul, there is a very strong case that Christians are very capable of falling away, and that one must persevere in order to find their salvation. (See John 15, 1 Corinthians 10:12)
Click to expand...
This is the conclusion I have come to. I found no assurance of salvation in Calvinism, and I don’t think there was really any intent to provide that assurance through Calvinism. The Protestant Work Ethic is based on “work[ing] out your own salvation with fear and trembling”

I’ve never been comfortable with the predominantly Southern Baptist notion of OSAS. Since most of them are not Calvinists, they don’t have the “perseverance of the saints” escape clause. They are forced to believe that once you are saved, there is nothing you can do to reverse that. Nice thought, but there’s too much in the Bible that contradicts it.
 
Wannano said:
Now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24 & 25.
Click to expand...
That verse instills great hope/confidence. It does not guarantee final perseverance. In teaching and apologetics we deal with both under and over-confidence. Both lead to excesses, and I’m not saying that’s the case with you.

Catholics and Protestants alike often don’t know the sheer boundless love God has for humankind; His kindness, gentleness, patience, His humility, even. They dont know just how much He wants them to spend eternity with Him. But the other extreme, of over-confidence, can tend towards anti-nominianism, etc. I think the Catholic teachings are quite balanced, intended to avert the excesses.
 
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