At what point do you let go and file for divorce?

[chevalier]

I doubt all of this going back and forth is helping the original poster at all. Only God knows her situation, and whether the marriage was a “true” marriage as He intended at the time of the exchange of vows. If she examines her properly formed conscience, talks to her priest, reads the Catechism, and feels that divorce is her only option… who are ANY of us to tell her she is wrong?

Hey, have you seen a definite judgement of the Opening Poster’s situation in any of my posts? All I’ve been saying is that the Catechism and a properly formed conscience must be consulted - and followed. The Catechism here says divorce is tolerable if it is the only way to protect one’s rights or the rights of his children. This requires looking at other things and making the informed decision that divorce is the only way - and getting the divorce for the right reasons. I’m not saying that in this case divorce is or is not the only way - and in fact, I think it probably is the only way in this situation.

She will answer to God for her own actions, not any of us. The best thing we can do is offer prayers… it seems that the last posts have been nothing but repetitive verbal sparring.

Everyone will answer to God for his actions, but sometimes people are asking for advice - such as here. We will answer for the advice. The “verbal sparring” was necessary, because some of the claims I’ve seen in this thread have been very worrying. As a result I found it necessary to remind of the reasons for which divorce may be sought and the “last resort” condition. Statements like “because one spouse caused the collapse of marital life, the other is entitled to have the commitment broken by a formal resolution” are troublesome and they need a lot of clarification at the least, if not correction. Civil divorce is not a remedy for abuse, it’s a last resort means of protection and should be treated as such. It shouldn’t be treated as formal recognition of failure, enabling back a degree of singlehood to compensate for being mistreated. That kind of position is wrong.

 

[Lerin]

Chevalier, I understand you are a lawyer and get paid to argue.

I am just saying that it seems like nitpicking other’s answers doesn’t seem beneficial to the OP. You have spoken your piece, others have here as well. I think we should leave it at that rather than continually argue about percieved tones/attitudes in other’s advice.

I definitely respect and value your opinion and your ability to point to Church teaching readily. I think we agree on most points, I just can’t completely understand or agree with your continued argument and analysis of the morality of perceived psychological benefits. I think everyone here is in agreement that this situation appears to be a “no other choice” matter, but ultimately… it is only the OP who can search her heart and know for sure. I think those of us who have been through it are especially sensitive to what those on the outside looking in are prone to do… to assume motivations that are not there, or to assume that we haven’t already exhausted every other means.

Notice in my last paragraph, I speak of generalities… “others” and not YOU specifically. Please don’t assume my post is attacking you or your opinion. It isn’t. :hug3:

 

[jmcrae]

Your own post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4848916&postcount=57

You are ignoring the fact that I do not debate your advice. I debate your statements which you put in your posts apart from the practical advice for the Opening Poster. Those statements are wrong and I have amply shown why. .

Could you take this stuff to PM? I think the OP probably doesn’t care about these issues of semantics, and I know I don’t.

I understood her to mean by “the marriage commitment” the partnership aspect of the marriage.

I’m sure you agree that the partnership aspect no longer exists - he is not helping with the raising of the children (in fact,he is interfering with it by being a “Disneyland Dad” and undermining the mother’s discipline at home), he is not helping out with paying the bills or bringing home a paycheck to allow her to stay home with the children, he is not helping out with the housework, and he is not emotionally or spiritually there for her, any more. Meaning that his commitment to her is gone, and he is no longer her partner and helper.

 

[chevalier]

Nowhere do I say here, “an abused spouse is entitled to have the marriage formally recognised as over.” (as you accuse me) I said that for her to file for divorce is to respond to the reality of her abandonment.

I am frankly disgusted by the confusion and dissension you have interjected into this conversation.

Good day.

You said, “her marriage commitment …] should be broken by a formal resolution,” which is self-explanatory and wrong, regardless of the fact that in her case, divorce is (with overwhleming probability) the moral option. That’s not what the Catechism says. The Catechism says the spouse is allowed to protect himself or the children even if it means divorce. Your theory that a wronged and betrayed spouse is entitled to a “formal resolution breaking the commitment of marriage” by a civil court no less is disturbing and you have no backing for it. Such opinions as that one are the reason why this discussion started, not any malice of which you have been accusing me. I am done with you, I can do no more.

@jmcrae, Lerin: As I said, in this case, it does seem that divorce is, unfortunately, the best option. I disagree with some of the reasons given, however, and some opinions seemed so problematic to me that they needed answering. Some points from the Catechism and the Canon Law needed quoting. Such as “If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense,” among others. I don’t want to drag this any further because it takes place from what advice could be given to the Opening Poster. I fear that more innaccurate things about divorce will be said without opposition after I leave this thread, but in this case I will probably need to hope that an informed reader will be able to make a good moral judgement. It’s sad, however, that from reading this thread, a less informed reader could develop wrong ideas about when in general and for what reasons divorce can be tolerated. I will abide the wish of how many of you by now? probably a couple of people, but this is a very sad moment for me, considering the circumstances.

 

[whatevergirl]

I would never ever ever guess you’re in law, chev.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I would never ever ever guess you’re in law, chev.

It would be tossed in court as argumentative.

 

[whatevergirl]

It would be tossed in court as argumentative.

chev…are you argumentative? lol

 

[Angels_Unaware]

chev…are you argumentative? lol

When you cross examine in court, and make an argument on an inference from facts or statements (in this case, that because I said the OP’s marriage is over, what I really meant was that abuse is a permissable reason for divorce) and that inference of facts is denied, but you persist, then you are are badgering the witness.

It also consitutes a major de-railment of this thread.

 

[whatevergirl]

When you cross examine in court, and make an argument on an inference from facts or statements (in this case, that because I said the OP’s marriage is over, what I really meant was that abuse is a permissable reason for divorce) and that inference of facts is denied, but you persist, then you are are badgering the witness.

It also consitutes a major de-railment of this thread.

You make me laugh, angels.

 

[Lerin]

What can I say? I am the middle child of five, and am ever the peacemaker.

I love these boards, ever since I timidly and cautiously asked about forgiveness for the first time a couple of months ago. The outpouring of advice and help was much appreciated. I’m glad that BMB feels some understanding and empathy for those of us who have been there… as well as good solid Church teaching on the subject of divorce in general.

The peace of Christ be with you all. :grouphug:

 

[BMB]

Hey you’all. Thanks for hangin’ in there with me.

Just returned from private counsel with my Pastor. After all the points/counterpoints, questions re the morality of divorce vs. necessity, right to protection vs openness to forgiveness, he looked as if he had been watching a ping-pong match. Thanks for all the points of view… I think I asked and received the church’s position on all of them.

He urged me to 1st determine (via consult with my attorney) which protections may be lacking despite the legal decree of support and maintenance. …Search my conscience and file for civil divorce if I feel it is warranted.

Father agrees that a “marriage-like” relationship no longer exists but rather an unhealthy, one-sided one had taken it’s place. He hinted that my co-dependent nature was not helpful and that I MUST insist all aspects of the decree of maintenance be followed. (also, no more free meals)

Some prayers from you, my new friends, would be appreciate as I cannot seem to get husband to “do” anything on his own accord. How will I ever get him to open new CCs to transfer debt, or even establish DDeposit to my personal account? This is not going to be a quick/easy job.

Some clarification on why a review by the Tribunal is not allowed until a civil divorce is final… My interpretation of what he said was that the church could not usurp the right of civil courts to dissolve a civil marriage. The church would open itself up to law suits and possibly encourage bigamy.

Father did provide a copy of the Tribunal’s initial marriage info collection form so that I could see the type of questions that the tribunal considers. Incidentally, after the issuance of a civil divorce in my state, it takes an estimated 1.5 yrs for the tribunal to get to new reviews.

Of course, I could always get a civil divorce and remain married but live as a single Mom. My pastor also reminded me that the tribunal could agree that there is enough evidence to pursue an annulment and then still choose not to continue down that road. Now THAT’s a twist.

Thank you’all for your support.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

would be appreciate as I cannot seem to get husband to “do” anything on his own accord. How will I ever get him to open new CCs to transfer debt, or even establish DDeposit to my personal account?

This, my dear, is why we have courts. The court system protects people from spouses who want their cake and eat it too. It forces them to split assets so that you don’t end up paying for concubine’s new car while your kids go without dental care. It forces cheating spouses to finally accept the reality of what they are doing and have to go public with their bad private behavior. It also forces abusive spouses to leave homes and surrender keys and enables the enforcement of restraining orders and separate housing. (Try to find some other way to get a spouse out of your house when their name is on the title also.)

Abusers and narcissists would let untenable situations go on forever if not for the fact that divorce laws enable the courts to enforce separate checking accounts and direct deposit of child support, insurance and alimony.

Otherwise, one is dependent upon the good nature and moral rectitude of people who have shown none thus far to provide for the families they are abandoning or abusing.

And the priest was correct about why our pluralistic society doesn’t allow the church to annul legal marriages. Not everyone in this country has a religious marriage bond. And this is one of the few countries that allows the religious ceremony to count for the legal civil ceremony also. Most European countries mandate separate ceremonies for civil and religious reasons, I believe.

 

[Julianna]

I live in NC, and since you asked. Alienation of Affection in NC gives the right of the cheated on spouse to sue the honey or stud as the case may be for breaking up the family. In otherwords you can sue his honey…in NC…you would win a settlement.

A woman in Wilmington won a settlement that nets her $300.00 a month from her ex hubby’s honey. They have since married, but she still “pays” the exwife.

I think that a woman or a man would think twice before getting involved with a married person. If there were a consequence…I think honey sweetie would run in the other direction.

It’s time to break off the finances…get the ball rolling…I’ll be here holding you upright. What doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger.

 

[Lerin]

This, my dear, is why we have courts. The court system protects people from spouses who want their cake and eat it too. It forces them to split assets so that you don’t end up paying for concubine’s new car while your kids go without dental care. It forces cheating spouses to finally accept the reality of what they are doing and have to go public with their bad private behavior. It also forces abusive spouses to leave homes and surrender keys and enables the enforcement of restraining orders and separate housing. (Try to find some other way to get a spouse out of your house when their name is on the title also.)

Abusers and narcissists would let untenable situations go on forever if not for the fact that divorce laws enable the courts to enforce separate checking accounts and direct deposit of child support, insurance and alimony.

Otherwise, one is dependent upon the good nature and moral rectitude of people who have shown none thus far to provide for the families they are abandoning or abusing.

Exactly.

You don’t have to “get him” to do anything. It will be a court order, and he will face contempt of court charges if he refuses to comply. He can have his income forcibly docked for child support and other maintenace.

You don’t have to do it all for him anymore. In fact, it will be such an amazing feeling once you are free from feeling this obligation. You are an adult, and so is he. It is time he lives up to his responsibilities… and if he doesn’t, he will be in trouble with the law. Let his Mommy be his Mommy, and his “other” take up your slack. You are not obligated to pay his bills, manage his finances, do his laundry or cook for him.

Keep your boundaries… keep them “religiously.” As a recovering co-dependent, I learned that I was too easily manipulated by what I wanted to believe was in his heart rather than the actions he was showing me. Do not let him in and do not let him make you feel guilty. He has made his choice and now must face the consequences. It is n ot a punishment from you, but rather self-protection. Anything he suffers is from the result of HIS sin against you, and there are always consequences both here on earth and in eternity for our sin.

Just make sure you do not completely harden your heart. Protect yourself, but keep praying for him. When you are able, forgive him… not for him, but for you and for the good of your soul. Don’t hate him, but also don’t buy into false promises or crocodile tears.

Please keep us updated. I really care about you and what you’re going through.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Lerin is absolutely correct.

And I might add, it is mandatory for your children to watch as their father’s actions have consequences.

Do you want them to grow up expecting that they can mistreat and abandon a spouse and be expected to come in and be served dinner with that too?

Pray for your spouse. And let your children know you are praying for him in charity.

Of course spouse will be angry. The gravy train is going to come to a complete shuddering halt. And he’s going to have to cough up some of that money he made being successful while you followed his career around.

Make sure you get in the divorce agreement his obligation to pay toward college for the kids.

Ignore his tantrums and the inevitable blame he will shower on you for “what you’re doing.” Just warning you. It’s galling when they turn it into your fault because you object to their behavior.

Sounds like he’s kind of hedging his bets, like he is trying to keep a back door open in case he changes his mind. So in his head, it’s not really over as long as there are joint accounts, etc. Some men think like that. (Cough cough. I know.)

Time for his public image to fall in line with his private behavior.

 

[Zelie_Louis]

I notice that this thread is now back on track - let’s keep it that way and not derail it again.

 

[BMB]

It’s time to break off the finances…get the ball rolling…I’ll be here holding you upright. What doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger.

New friends,

I find my self in a state of anxiety tonight. I have made arrangements to meet my husband at our bank tomorrow. Plans are to take my name off our joint account & have him open a new CC so that debt may be transferred to his name. I have also let him know that I want him to DDeposit the CS/alimony from his payroll office.

When he came to visit the kids tonight I had a standing “card night” planned with some friends. I only spent a few minutes in his company. He was quiet and I couldn’t read him at all. Don’t know if he’s mad or resigned. Seemed sad. He didn’t mention our appt. tomorrow.

I really don’t know how I am going to feel in the am. It is harder than I thought to push what I know is necessary. I’m ALREADY feeling guilty about not trusting him to provide the CC/alimony payments by a manual bank transfer 2x a month …

I don’t want drama, I don’t want animosity, I want to stop caring what he thinks and hope I have the strength to insist on what I know is best for me and the kids. Why can’t God just fix him and bring me peace or let him ACT like the person he really is when he is around me? Why does he have to “play act” the victim/sorrowful sinner role?

Going to start out my day tomorrow with the Devine Mercy Chaplet. Please pray for me that I am strong enough to finish the financial end of this mess. Not feeling very STRONG at the moment. THankful for your strength behind me.

 

[whatevergirl]

New friends,

I find my self in a state of anxiety tonight. I have made arrangements to meet my husband at our bank tomorrow. Plans are to take my name off our joint account & have him open a new CC so that debt may be transferred to his name. I have also let him know that I want him to DDeposit the CS/alimony from his payroll office.

When he came to visit the kids tonight I had a standing “card night” planned with some friends. I only spent a few minutes in his company. He was quiet and I couldn’t read him at all. Don’t know if he’s mad or resigned. Seemed sad. He didn’t mention our appt. tomorrow.

I really don’t know how I am going to feel in the am. It is harder than I thought to push what I know is necessary. I’m ALREADY feeling guilty about not trusting him to provide the CC/alimony payments by a manual bank transfer 2x a month …

I don’t want drama, I don’t want animosity, I want to stop caring what he thinks and hope I have the strength to insist on what I know is best for me and the kids. Why can’t God just fix him and bring me peace or let him ACT like the person he really is when he is around me? Why does he have to “play act” the victim/sorrowful sinner role?

Going to start out my day tomorrow with the Devine Mercy Chaplet. Please pray for me that I am strong enough to finish the financial end of this mess. Not feeling very STRONG at the moment. THankful for your strength behind me.

Praying for you BMB. I think anytime we make a major change in our life, anxiety can often be a byproduct. Not saying to ignore your husband…he could be sad that he messed up everything…but, at this point, it’s in the best interest of your kids, to safeguard the money to take care of them. I will be praying for you, keep strong. God is with you always.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

When he came to visit the kids tonight I had a standing “card night” planned with some friends. I only spent a few minutes in his company. He was quiet and I couldn’t read him at all. Don’t know if he’s mad or resigned. Seemed sad. He didn’t mention our appt. tomorrow.

I really don’t know how I am going to feel in the am. It is harder than I thought to push what I know is necessary. I’m ALREADY feeling guilty about not trusting him to provide the CC/alimony payments by a manual bank transfer 2x a month …

I don’t want drama, I don’t want animosity, I want to stop caring what he thinks and hope I have the strength to insist on what I know is best for me and the kids. Why can’t God just fix him and bring me peace or let him ACT like the person he really is when he is around me? Why does he have to “play act” the victim/sorrowful sinner role?

Please tell me you don’t leave him in your house alone with the kids. So he can go through your personal papers or take stuff. Please tell me he has to pick up the kids and you lock the door and he can’t be in there.

If not, start doing that.

New keys.

He left.

Actions have consequences. Your kids need to see that.

Why are YOU feeling guilty about not trusting HIM??? If he were trustworthy, he wouldn’t have a mistress! And actually, in many states, when a divorce is finalized, the state steps in and the husband has to pay through the attorney general’s office and the state cuts you a check. Mine never got that straight. He accused me of changing things when it was state law. So he is always late because it takes a few days for the check to be processed. But before the divorce was final, he handed me the check personally, or mailed it to me. Now the state keeps track. And deadbeats get their drivers license suspended.

So your informal financial agreement will end up being aligned with state law eventually. It may be taken out of your hands anyway.

And he then can’t jerk you around not paying or use the check as a way to “see” you to manipulate you. Or coerce you.

The guilt here is not yours. When someone starts heading a train off a cliff, and you’re sitting in the seat and holding on for dear life, why would you feel bad that the conductor is going off the cliff. HE AIMED THE TRAIN! HE DROVE IT OFF THE CLIFF.

Did you do this? Or did he for about the last 1460 days EVERY DAY wake up and make a conscious decision to perpetuate a lie and continue a path that would destroy his family. And YOU are feeling guilty???

Who cares if he feels sad. About time! Of course he’s going to play act the victim. Maybe he’s as good an actor as the guy that had you believing he was a faithful husband. You don’t want drama? He introduced way too much drama. You don’t want hard feelings? Neither does he. He wants you to make this all very easy on him. No inconvenience to him, no bad reputation, don’t sully the mistress’s reputation either.

Ever stop to think maybe some of his desire to keep this going along like this is so her name doesn’t get put in court documents as the correspondent? Maybe his reluctance to pursue this is more of a concern for her feelings than yours. This might make her look like a “homewrecker.” Can’t have that.

Sweetheart, you have been more than patient with him. Let him put on his sorrowful act elsewhere. If he were REALLY sorrowful for what he is doing he’d be on his knees sobbing in the confessional and seeking ways to fix his family. The one he vowed to care for for almost 2 decades. Until he does that, God can’t fix him. That would take his free will to cooperate with God.

Please… how much room is he paying to rent that space in your head where you’re always worried about what he is thinking. Been there, done that. It will drive you mad. Eject him! Care about your own feelings and how YOU will get through this. Get credit cards in YOUR name. Take your name off his cards. Disentangle yourself from this mess. It apparently takes three women to prop this man up. One of them is about to take care of herself. Let’s see how well the two-legged stool stands now.

Sorry to be mean about this. I’ve lived through the manipulation. But I found out with mine that when I stopped playing along with his script and cooperating with letting him do what he wanted when he wanted, his “sadness” quickly turned into vicious anger.

It was always vicious anger. He just disguised it to manipulate.

Just pray for the strength to carry on. Somehow God will send the people along who have been there, done that to help you. You will find a LOT of the people who conduct the daily business of pushing papers in life and doing admin work are women who have been through this, or have a mother or sister or best friend. And so they are sympathetic, and I have found them more than helpful as they worked with me to get accounts in my name or set up utilities in my name and the hundred other details of life.

Take it one day at a time. His feelings are HIS problem from now on. Keep telling yourself that. And you never know if now that he’s on his way to being “free” the other woman could be pressuring him for marriage. We already know he’s not good marriage material. Him being “free” might be too much for that relationship to handle. Tee hee.

(Note to Chevalier, we don’t mean we think he’s really free. We mean we think he thinks he’s free because he thought he was free as a married man too.)

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

OK, this is what my father did in a similar situation. After he was “free”, because he chased out his wife and children from the house, he should have married his mistress of 5 years to whom he kept promising that for a long time. Instead, they broke up pretty soon, because the mistress saw my father dating yet a third woman. Then he had a period of several years of involvement with women and alcohol, until he finally calmed down and married again.

It’s free will, as Liberanosamalo said. God cannot fix someone who won’t cooperate with him. Ultimately, Hell is the same. God cannot save people against their will.