Atheism, Religion, and Crime

[anEvilAtheist]

Well were not just talking about the UK, however that still does not address the fact the the countries with the lowest stats are atheist in nature.

Correlation does not imply causation. It seems likely that both crime statistics and atheism are influenced by some third variable. Wealthy liberal democracies often have very low crime rates and also very high levels of atheism. But this is no evidence whatsoever that it’s the atheism that is responsible for the low crime rates. It’s possible that atheism does have some effect, but I do not think that these statistics provide much evidence that it does.

By the way, I realize that they did attempt to control for a variety of variables, but it’s not possible to fully account for all the ways in which countries differ. I think that people are too quick to leap to the conclusion that atheism must have been the cause.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I’ve read this kind of things also. This is more evidence that atheism is false since it is claimed that it takes “courage” to kill oneself. But if atheism is true, why would it take courage?

There is no atheist dogma that it takes courage to kill oneself. Saying that atheism is false because some people hold that belief is like saying that Christianity is false because of the beliefs of Fred Phelps.

And even if all atheists held that belief, how would that be evidence that atheism is false? Rejecting atheism because they hold one of their beliefs for bad reasons is ridiculous. It is committing the genetic fallacy to say that a belief must be false because of the people who believe in it. Even if I could prove that everyone who believed in God did so for bad reasons, that wouldn’t stop me from believing if I thought I had a good reason for doing so.

 

[PJM]

=Charlemagne II;5480039]In these forums there have been endless discussions of historical atrocities committed by established religions (Crusades and Inquisitions) and atheist governments (Stalin, Hitler, Mao).

I’d hope to stay clear of these issues and focus in particular on whether a society’s moral values are better off with or without religion. More specifically, how does that issue get factored into the current prison populations?

***The place to began this discussion seems to me is in recogonizintg that their is a single truth for every issue. Pope Benedict expressed this idea in his very first homily at his first Mass as Pope. "Their cannot be your truth and my truth or their would be no truth. ***

Sadly we live in a “New Age” time of relative belief; "it is only wrong IF I SAY IT’s WRONG! Further a great many [including some catholic theologians] hold that there are no absolutes. that sin cannot exist. That it is a greater evil [old Greek philosophy] to get caught than to do the "deed."

***If a nation can justify killing in the womb over 1 MILLION life babies each year and not lift a fingure to defend them, if a nation permits the “mercy killing” of the aged and sickly, and looks the otherway; if a nation endorses same sex unions and is stuipid enough to call it marriage; that country has clearly lost it’s moral objectivity, and lacks a Moral base.

Because actions DO speak so much louder than words, one shold NOT be surprised to see our prison population continue to swell. Why should our young people do what we say rather than what we do? Are we to suppose that they are as a population dumber than us?

We are but harvesting the seeds that we have sowen! May God have mercy on us.

Love and prayers,***

 

[anEvilAtheist]

This is avoiding the main point though. What is the argument against suicide here? Why should the person desire to keep living? What ultimate purpose does it serve and what good is it? While it may be comforting to hear something, why is suicide not more comforting – since it puts all the risk of future suffering to end? Can atheism assure the person that they’re not going to have to deal with these religious-bullies any more? Suicide takes away all the shame (in the atheist view) much better than living with atheism does.

Atheism has no arguments for these.

I don’t think people should commit suicide because there is so much left to be experienced. Life has its rough times, but there are also many happy moments. I think that most people who commit suicide have the false belief that they will never be happy again. It can be hard to look optimistically at the future when one is miserable, but I think that the future is typically brighter than people realize.

But if you’re talking about whether there’s some inherent moral evil in suicide, then I don’t think there is one. I don’t see people who commit suicide as bad people. I see them as misguided people who thought suicide was the answer, and in doing so gave up the only shot at happiness that they would ever have. I would say though that in extreme cases, suicide may be a reasonable course. If someone was absolutely certain that they were about to die a slow and excruciatingly painful death, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to consider suicide.

Atheism itself doesn’t have any stance on suicide, just like theism doesn’t. However, some theists, as well as some atheists, have moral beliefs in which suicide is wrong.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Well, here we go again: Stalin, Hitler, Mao. All atheists. Need I say more? :banghead:

I disagree with atheists who say that none of the atheists did their crimes in the name of atheism, but all theists did their crimes because of their religions. Just because you’re a theist doesn’t mean you have to agree with the morality of theistic mass murderers and just because you’re an atheist doesn’t mean you have to agree with the morality of atheistic mass murderers.

Regarding Hitler, his religion is a contentious issue and I don’t claim to know his innermost beliefs. In the end I don’t think it matters because just because one evil man had specific religious beliefs doesn’t show that those religious beliefs are false or evil. But one thing I find really interesting is that Catholics are very quick to say that if you’re baptized a Catholic you’re always a Catholic, except when it’s someone they don’t like. Even if Hitler didn’t believe in God, wouldn’t he still have been considered a Catholic?

 

[MetalMark]

They did their crimes in the name of communism (with the exception of Hitler), and atheism is a fundamental principal of communism.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

I’ll take your word for it that their is lower recidivism in prisoners who go to church, but is is it the churching that is doing them good or is it that the prisoners who already desire to change their lives are the ones choosing to go to church?

I haven’t researched all the studies on recidivism, but I have looked into Chuck Colson’s prison ministry a little bit. In his case, despite claims that his ministry is effective, the difference in recidivism appears to be almost exclusively due to the latter. There was no evidence that the former had any effect. Of course maybe it’s different if the ministry is run by the one true Church.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

They did their crimes in the name of communism (with the exception of Hitler), and atheism is a fundamental principal of communism.

Christianity is just as fundamental to the beliefs of KKK members, but I don’t hold all Christians accountable for their crimes. You can believe in atheism or theism without having to agree with the morality of everyone in your group.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

If you were walking down a street sidewalk and on one side of the street coming toward you there was a group of young men toting bibles and on the other side there was a group of young men in black leather jackets wielding bats and chains, on which side of the street would you rather be?

Well obviously I’d try to stay away from people brandishing weapons. But that’s because of the weapons, not because of the religion. But if there were two groups that looked the same except one was obviously religious, I don’t think I’d be any more afraid of the non-religious group.

 

[Leela]

Correlation does not imply causation. It seems likely that both crime statistics and atheism are influenced by some third variable. Wealthy liberal democracies often have very low crime rates and also very high levels of atheism. But this is no evidence whatsoever that it’s the atheism that is responsible for the low crime rates. It’s possible that atheism does have some effect, but I do not think that these statistics provide much evidence that it does.

I agree that we can’t infer that atheism is having any sort of positive influence on those areas. What those statistics and those of the UN Human Development report do show is that atheism is entirely compatible with a healthy society and that a religious people in no way guarantees a healthy society.

Best,
Leela

 

[j1akey]

MetalMark:

They did their crimes in the name of communism (with the exception of Hitler), and atheism is a fundamental principal of communism.

YEAH RIGHT! Do you even know what communism is?!?! It’s a socioeconomic structure and political ideology. Religion or lack of has NOTHING to do with it. It has absolutely nothing to do with being an atheist! It’s like saying Christianity is a fundamental principal of Capitalism!

Now I’m just insulted that someone implied I’m a communist because I don’t believe in god. I really dislike people like you.

 

[JDaniel]

I disagree with atheists who say that none of the atheists did their crimes in the name of atheism, but all theists did their crimes because of their religions. Just because you’re a theist doesn’t mean you have to agree with the morality of theistic mass murderers and just because you’re an atheist doesn’t mean you have to agree with the morality of atheistic mass murderers.

Yo! Evil . . . relax! Do you see the ontological error in the above? It sounds as if you are saying that atheists did their crimes only because of what they believed, but that, theists did their crimes because of their churches made them do it. I would disagree with that in the strongest manner. Do I think that some over-zealous Christians committed nasty acts because of what they believed, yes. Do I concur that their churches were the efficient causes of those acts? No.

Now, while your second sentence is true in spirit, it is not true in its facts. The “atheist” murderer-rulers, in history, have killed countless more innocent people than the theist rulers have. The differences can be likened to a gnat on an elephant’s behind. And, the Atheist murderer-rulers used their rejection of God as a primary rationale for the placement of human beings into different baskets of value, with the lower ones receiving the heartless justification necessary for their annihilations.

Regarding Hitler, his religion is a contentious issue and I don’t claim to know his innermost beliefs. In the end I don’t think it matters because just because one evil man had specific religious beliefs doesn’t show that those religious beliefs are false or evil. But one thing I find really interesting is that Catholics are very quick to say that if you’re baptized a Catholic you’re always a Catholic, except when it’s someone they don’t like. Even if Hitler didn’t believe in God, wouldn’t he still have been considered a Catholic?

History has indicated that Hitler was born a Catholic. History has also shown that, as a youngster, Hitler chose to absent himself from the Church. History has also shown that Hitler remained a fallen-away Catholic for the balance of his life. Surely when the influence of a Church is shut off so long before a man’s deeds become the actual grounds for their own futurum exactum, it can’t be appropriately said to continue to have had influence on them, can it? If you were to affirm that the Church was somehow still complicit in his actions, that complicity would have to have been extraordinarily minute.

jd

 

[edwest2]

YEAH RIGHT! Do you even know what communism is?!?! It’s a socioeconomic structure and political ideology. Religion or lack of has NOTHING to do with it. It has absolutely nothing to do with being an atheist! It’s like saying Christianity is a fundamental principal of Capitalism!

Now I’m just insulted that someone implied I’m a communist because I don’t believe in god. I really dislike people like you.

I suggest you visit marxism dot com and read up on what one of the State’s missions was: to create propaganda against religion and to get rid of superstition from among the people. Their ally was the school system, but they were concerned that older people might be a bad influence on the kids.

A Polish general in World War II wrote about his experience after capture by Russian troops. After being handled roughly, his Mary medal fell to the ground: “Do you think that b**** is going to help you here?” He ended up in Lubianka prison where they tried to break his spirit.

Peace,
Ed

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Yo! Evil . . . relax! Do you see the ontological error in the above? It sounds as if you are saying that atheists did their crimes only because of what they believed, but that, theists did their crimes because of their churches made them do it. I would disagree with that in the strongest manner. Do I think that some over-zealous Christians committed nasty acts because of what they believed, yes. Do I concur that their churches were the efficient causes of those acts? No.

I think you might have misread my post. I was strongly disagreeing with the same thing you’re strongly disagreeing with.

Now, while your second sentence is true in spirit, it is not true in its facts. The “atheist” murderer-rulers, in history, have killed countless more innocent people than the theist rulers have. The differences can be likened to a gnat on an elephant’s behind. And, the Atheist murderer-rulers used their rejection of God as a primary rationale for the placement of human beings into different baskets of value, with the lower ones receiving the heartless justification necessary for their annihilations.

I did not say anything factually inaccurate. I never claimed to know the ratio of murders by atheists to murders by theists. I don’t think your analogy to a gnat on an elephant’s behind is even close to accurate, but I haven’t run all the numbers (if you have, I’d be interested in seeing them). Atheism itself was not a primary rational for anything, just like theism is not a primary rational for anything. There’s no way to get from a simple lack of belief in God to the belief that you should kill someone. Stalin’s morality may have been rooted in his atheism, just as the actions of the KKK are rooted in their religious beliefs, but that doesn’t mean that atheists or theists are any more evil as a group.

History has indicated that Hitler was born a Catholic. History has also shown that, as a youngster, Hitler chose to absent himself from the Church. History has also shown that Hitler remained a fallen-away Catholic for the balance of his life. Surely when the influence of a Church is shut off so long before a man’s deeds become the actual grounds for their own futurum exactum, it can’t be appropriately said to continue to have had influence on them, can it? If you were to affirm that the Church was somehow still complicit in his actions, that complicity would have to have been extraordinarily minute.

There are indications that he still believed in God in some fashion, but I agree that he was not a practicing Catholic. I was not affirming any complicity. I was merely saying that I find it inconsistent that Catholics label everyone who has been baptized Catholic as Catholic, except when it’s someone they don’t like.

 

[j1akey]

edwest2:

I suggest you visit marxism dot com and read up on what one of the State’s missions was: to create propaganda against religion and to get rid of superstition from among the people. Their ally was the school system, but they were concerned that older people might be a bad influence on the kids.

A Polish general in World War II wrote about his experience after capture by Russian troops. After being handled roughly, his Mary medal fell to the ground: “Do you think that b**** is going to help you here?” He ended up in Lubianka prison where they tried to break his spirit.

While I can’t get to the website because the company firewall blocks it, I will admit that many communist countries promote atheism, I assume so the regimes can forcibly eliminate any organization that might challenge the power base because historically communist countries are also dictatorships? I’m not sure. However, that does not mean atheism is a principal of communism. Communism itself has nothing to do with atheism any more than any other political system has to do with any other religious ideology.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

While I can’t get to the website because the company firewall blocks it, I will admit that many communist countries promote atheism, I assume so the regimes can forcibly eliminate any organization that might challenge the power base because historically communist countries are also dictatorships? I’m not sure. However, that does not mean atheism is a principal of communism. Communism itself has nothing to do with atheism any more than any other political system has to do with any other religious ideology.

Karl Marx was a strong opponent of religion and many communist regimes were very anti-religious. I agree that that communism only refers to economics, but atheism was a core part of the worldviews of many prominent communists. However, I think my earlier points regarding communism still stand.

 

[annem]

j1akey

Communism itself has nothing to do with atheism any more than any other political system has to do with any other religious ideology…

Funny thing about them declaring it did then. Funny thing about the priests and nuns who were crucified, shot, or burned alive by communists in Spain. Funny thing about the Russians having a brutal committee that enforced atheism. Not to mention to hundreds of thousands of Christians who were martyred for their faith. And funny thing about the Nazis killing almost every single priest in Poland.

May God shower you in miracles, Annem

 

[edwest2]

Throughout the 1960s, the U.S. Government reminded all of us that we were not just fighting a political-economic force but Godless Communism. Most suitable buildings had yellow and black Civil Defense signs indicating you could hide there if nuclear missiles were on their way. You had about 20 minutes from the time they were spotted coming over the Arctic Circle. Magazines printed the damage radii from the blast center. Things became even more interesting when it was learned that multiple warheads could be packed onto one missile. These were Multiple, Independently-Targetable Reentry Vehicles. The platform they road on was called a bus and the bus could release its passengers to strike different targets.

I could go on but that was the threat. It was why we could see daily overflights and the long contrails of B-52 bombers that could be called to fly to their targets at any time.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Leela]

Karl Marx was a strong opponent of religion and many communist regimes were very anti-religious. I agree that that communism only refers to economics, but atheism was a core part of the worldviews of many prominent communists. However, I think my earlier points regarding communism still stand.

Communism includes opposition to religion in a way but only in the way that every religion opposes every other religion. Communists want Communism to be the supreme ideology just as Catholicism opposes any other competing worldview. There is nothing about atheism itself that supports any particular ideology. In fact, the atheists I know are generally opposed to ideologies whether religious or political in favor of pragmatism. Saying that the problem with Communism is that it is atheistic completely misses the point as Sam Harris explains:

“People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.”

Best,
Leela

 

[annem]

Leela

Communism includes opposition to religion in a way but only in the way that every religion opposes every other religion. Communists want Communism to be the supreme ideology just as Catholicism opposes any other competing worldview.

Oh my, you are very mistaken here.

Communists hunted down and murdered as many priests, bishops, and nuns as they could during the 20th century. This has nothing whatsoever to do with how Catholics would like to have everyone believe in God.

Do you have the smallest idea of what the communists in China, Russia, and Spain said about religion? Or what they did???

Communism didn’t ‘oppose’ or try to talk people into conversion. They crucified. They burned alive. They shot. They starved to death. Hundreds. Of. Thousands. Of. Christians.

May God please shower you with light, ANnem