Atheists delusional?

[Russell_SA]

But If God does not exist, existence does not mean anything or hold any value at all.

To you, but not to me. Someone else’s value of something is irrelevant for the value I place on it. Just like what the car maker places for value of their car is irrelevant to the value I find in the car.

Life is just a subjective preference in your head.

No more subjective than your preference your your deity’s preference.

As for scripture, i don’t take everything literally, but hypothetically speaking, even if God did take people’s lives, he would only be taking what belongs to him in the first place.

I understand owning people as property is foreign to religious people, but that idea is abhorrent to me. Your deity no more owns me than my parents own me. We are stewards of people, not their owners. Just because your deity has the power to squash people with no risk of fall out to it, does not mean it owns anyone not willing to be owned. You go be owned by your shepherd, I’ll go join a whole other group that does not own anyone and allows people to stand up and take responsibility for themselves and others.

If God does exist, i don’t imagine he is obliged to keep anybody alive, because they all live because of his power.

So who needs a devil when you grant this immoral pass to this deity. You are really not coming across as a morally serious person at all and just following orders from the biggest bully in the room. Nothing we can do to stop it from acting immorally so you want to remove the moral assessment of it’s immoral actions all together? That is fundamentally cowardice. You always stand up against immoral actions regardless of the power of the being doing it.

Only in our arrogance would we think that he is taking something that belongs to us.

I will destroy any being that tries to take the life of people for immoral reasons. Morality is independent of your deity. Otherwise it’s just might make right since it is the most powerful entity imagined which is cowardice again.

Nothing we have belongs to us; it belongs to God.

Our future for a better world belongs to us. Our purpose and meaning belongs to us. Our responsibility to each other belongs to us. Our ownership of creating a beautiful world or destroying our world belongs to us.

 

[Russell_SA]

Secondly, i believe that God does things for a reason.

Good things are god being moral, bad things are god being mysteriously moral for its own reasons. If you’re not going to be a morally serious person and apply your moral understanding to your deity, then you have the mindset of letting the dear leader do anything it wants without you ever breaking away. Sorry you were born 100 years too late and not in a german speaking country.

Thus If it’s a qeustion of keeping people alive versus saving as many souls as possible. I vote saving as many souls as possible…

Please keep being ignorant of reality so that you could never become involved with anything that fundamentally could affect a large group of people. Mind set like that was what got priests to baptize infants and then drown them to save their souls before they had the chance to sin against your deity.

 

[IWantGod]

No more subjective than your preference your your deity’s preference.

Its not a preference, it’s God’s nature. At least try to understand what you are arguing against.

 

[IWantGod]

Mind set like that was what got priests to baptize infants and then drown them to save their souls before they had the chance to sin against your deity.

Are you suggesting that i support or that the catholic church supports drowning baptized babies?

 

[IWantGod]

bad things

How do you know what bad is? Only physical things exist.

 

[IWantGod]

immoral pass to this deity.

How do you know what is truly immoral. Only physical things exist.

 

[IWantGod]

but that idea is abhorrent to me.

Is that suppose to mean something to me? Everything belongs to God whether human beings like it or not. He created us and keeps us in existence with his power. Without God we are nothing. Perhaps people are too arrogant to appreciate that fact.

 

[IWantGod]

If you’re not going to be a morally serious person and apply your moral understanding to your deity,

God’s perfect nature is why something is morally true. Without God there is no such thing as moral truth. Only an irrational person would suspect God of evil doing.

 

[IWantGod]

Our future for a better world belongs to us. Our purpose and meaning belongs to us. Our responsibility to each other belongs to us. Our ownership of creating a beautiful world or destroying our world belongs to us.

Save your meaningless fantasy for those who want to share in your meaningless fantasy. I have no respect for the opinions of those who would rob humanity of objective moral worth, meaning and purpose, and then stand on their subjective moral high house judging Christians for their beliefs, in the hope that they can subjugate us to their make-believe ideology .

That’s the very substance of a delusion.

Absolutely Ridiculous.

 

[IWantGod]

To you, but not to me.

That’s why people are calling you delusional. You are just a slave to your genetic inheritance claiming you have some insight into what truly matters.

 

[Russell_SA]

Its not a preference, it’s God’s nature.

You still have to be convinced that is the case and agree that is the standard. That is all everyone is doing including me. I have not been convinced that is the case and if it was, I don’t agree it is a standard to go by. I can find a standard on my own that others can agree with or disagree with but if I don’t understand why it is wrong, then I will not change my mind just because someone says Joe’s version is the standard vs deity’s version is the standard. This is the mindset of divine command theory, Don’t learn how to think, just learn what to think. What’s your position on X, doesn’t matter, it’s bob’s position that matters. Well bob isnt here, so what’s your position on this. I don’t know, I’ve never learned how to figure this out for myself and if I did, then I still wouldn’t want to do anything against what bob says. Well again bob isn’t here, figure it out and take that responsibility for its success or failure. Learn to stand up to your full height as an adult already.

Are you suggesting that i support or that the catholic church supports drowning baptized babies?

I’m suggesting your mindset was the same mind set that lead these priests to this conclusion. Souls are more important than people’s lives.

How do you know what bad is? Only physical things exist.

We have evolved moral tenancies and social behaviors and empathy and other higher functioning thought processes on how to care for each other. We prescribe what is good or bad. If we have a disagreement, then we discuss it. Once you have become convinced of what is good or bad, that is what is good or bad for you as you can understand it. If you can not understand what is good or bad, how can you know what is good or bad? Bob says X is bad. Why? Explain why bob’s position on X is actually correct over deity’s position of X being bad or good?

Everything belongs to God whether human beings like it or not.

Sorry I don’t and if it keeps treating me like property, I’ll do everything I can to destroy it.

God’s perfect nature is why something is morally true.

Perfect to you, not to me. First it doesn’t appear to exist at all. Second, the biblical representation of this deity is worse than the devil in the stories. How did you determine which one was the devil and the deity to worship? Was it who had the most power?

 

[Russell_SA]

I have no respect for the opinions of those who would rob humanity of objective moral truth, meaning and purpose, and then stand on their subjective moral high house judging Christians for their beliefs.

Once you define the problem and the objective to reach, you can have objective good or bad. Such as the problem of nutrition in reference to human well-being. It is objectively good to eat fruit, but subjective to eat apples over pears. But it is objectively bad to drink battery acid. All you’ve done with morality is tie it to the biggest bully in the room and what ever they say is the standard for right and wrong. That is the mentality of a slave needing their master.

You are just a slave to your genetic inheritance claiming you have some insight into what truly matters.

I can demonstrate the benefits of what I’ve come to believe is good and bad in reference to a situation and the problem of it as it is referenced to human-well being. All you’ve done is remove the ability to morally assess your deity and give it a free pass to do any thing it wants. So if tomorrow your deity decides to kill off all the children, that would still be a moral action for you.

 

[IWantGod]

You still have to be convinced that is the case and agree that is the standard. That is all everyone is doing including me. I have not been convinced that is the case and if it was, I don’t agree it is a standard to go by. I can find a standard on my own that others can agree with or disagree with but if I don’t understand why it is wrong, the I will not change my mind just because someone says Joe’s version is the standard vs deity’s version is the standard. This is the mindset of divine command theory, Don’t learn how to think, just learn what to think. What’s your position on X, doesn’t matter, it’s bob’s position that matters. Well bob isnt here, so what’s your position on this. I don’t know, I’ve never learned how to figure this out for myself and if I did, then I still wouldn’t want to do anything against what bob says. Well again bob isn’t here, figure it out and take that responsibility for its success or failure. Learn to stand up to your full height as an adult already.

If there is no moral truth then all you are talking about is your preference. That’s not a reasonable foundation from which to morally judge others.

 

[IWantGod]

Once you define the problem

If only physical things exist then the very concept of a problem is relative and completely subjective. Objectively speaking its meaningless. A million people dying has no more significance than a planet being sucked into a black hole. It’s just a physical event.

 

[IWantGod]

So if tomorrow your deity decides to kill off all the children, that would still be a moral action for you.

Moral truth only exists if God’s perfect nature exists. If all the children die tomorrow, whether or not i can understand why that happened is irrelevant to the fact that God cannot possibly be immoral for making that or allowing that to happen. The greatest good is not survival for a finite period of time. The greatest good is the salvation of your soul.

 

[Russell_SA]

If there is no moral truth then all you are talking about is your preference. That’s not a reasonable foundation from which to morally judge others.

I’ve been convinced of what is moral truth. Being convinced is not a choice you make. It’s the result of applying your understanding of reality to what reality has presented. Example: sit in a chair. Now is it your preference that you profess that you are sitting in a chair or are you convinced that you are sitting in a chair? My reference for good and bad as it applies to humanity is human well-being. Your’s is a deity. Well everyone has access to my reference point and everyone has a say in the discussion of the idea of what is good and bad as referenced to all of humanity. Only the superstitious have access to commune with the supernatural realm. Sorry but could you actually demonstrate that you are getting information from this deity that the rest of the world does not have access to? Also, it’s (name removed by moderator)ut is fine for the discussion, but it’s the group’s consensus as to what we have become convinced of to be the best way forward for the betterment of humanity. If we get it wrong, then we get it wrong. But at least the process is self correcting. When it’s a deity that is wrong, we’re just stuck being beaten by the master. Sorry but I will not allow your deity to speak to me or treat me in the way you want to be treated.

 

[IWantGod]

I’ve been convinced of what is moral truth. Being convinced is not a choice you make. It’s the result of applying your understanding of reality to what reality has presented.

If all that exists is physical things, then all you could possibly be talking about is your subjective preference which includes your preference to stay alive.

You want your opinion to have significance where there is none. But you can’t have it both ways.

 

[Russell_SA]

A million people dying has no more significance than a planet being sucked into a black hole. It’s just a physical event.

In reference to the universe, but not to us, the people actually affected by it. Why are you using the universe as a reference point for determining what is meaningful or not in reference to humans? You know the universe is not a mind right? It doesn’t have a moral position on anything.

 

[Russell_SA]

The greatest good is not survival for a finite period of time. The greatest good is the salvation of your soul.

Can you demonstrate a soul or a deity exist at all?

 

[Russell_SA]

You want your opinion to have significance where there is none.

In reference to human well being is it an opinion that owning people as property is bad?