Atheists delusional?

[IWantGod]

In reference to the universe, but not to us,

You are just blind to the reality of it. You have deluded yourself into thinking that just because you think human existence is important that therefore it is in truth important… But your subjective values have no relevance to what is actually and objectively true.

 

[Russell_SA]

You are just blind to the reality of it.

So demonstrate to the counter understanding of what all of reality has demonstrated for us to understand about the universe. It has presented itself as not a mind. I can only go by what reality has presented. Demonstrate it to me.

 

[IWantGod]

If only physical things exist, then it is certainly true that the universe has not shown you that human existence is important. But you deem it to be so.

 

[IWantGod]

In reference to human well being is it an opinion that owning people as property is bad?

A human being has to have true objective moral value before i can determine what situations would be bad or good for a person. What difference does it make if 10 people burn alive if their existence in truth has no more moral worth than a mosquito.

 

[Russell_SA]

Yes because the universe is not an evolved brain able to place value and meaning on its existence. The beings that did not evolve value and meaning to their existence died off. We are the results of directed evolution from beings that did evolve a desire for meaning and value of their existence.
But you are passing up our past points that you are not addressing in my response:

1. Your deity is defined as perfect and its position on morality is what matters

• Please demonstrate that your deity exists and has these qualities and why we should be convinced that it’s position on anything is any different than anyone else’s position on morality. All you’ve presented is it’s moral because you define it to be moral because it is moral because you define it to be moral. AKA the bible is true because the bible says its true.

1. Why does creating people allow your deity to own people?
2. Is there anything your deity can do that would not be moral to you?
3. How did your determine your deity was the moral one and the devil wasn’t?
4. Do you agree with me that my position on good or bad is a conclusion, not a preference?
5. You can have objective good and bad based on your problem you are solving in reference to a goal.

 

[IWantGod]

Yes because the universe is not an evolved brain able to place value and meaning on its existence

And there is me thinking that you were only concerned with whats objectively true.

 

[Russell_SA]

And there me thinking that you were only concerned with whats objectively true.

Isn’t truth claims demonstrable? So could you demonstrate your deity exists, that souls exists, that your deity actually has these values you are presupposing it does. I can make up a logically consistent superhero as well. Comic writers do it all the time. Does that make superman real and give him power over us just because his fan club claims that superman should have that power?

But you are passing up our past points that you are not addressing in my response:

Your deity is defined as perfect and its position on morality is what matters
Please demonstrate that your deity exists and has these qualities and why we should be convinced that it’s position on anything is any different than anyone else’s position on morality. All you’ve presented is it’s moral because you define it to be moral because it is moral because you define it to be moral. AKA the bible is true because the bible says its true.
Why does creating people allow your deity to own people?
Is there anything your deity can do that would not be moral to you?
How did your determine your deity was the moral one and the devil wasn’t?
Do you agree with me that my position on good or bad is a conclusion, not a preference?
You can have objective good and bad based on your problem you are solving in reference to a goal.

 

[IWantGod]

We are the results of directed evolution from beings that did evolve a desire for meaning and value of their existence.

Just because we evolved to value existence does not mean it’s rational to preserve our existence. We just have an impulse to stay alive and bring kids into a world. It has no rational value. If only physical reality exists, then everything we do is essentially for no rational reason.

If we are concerned with being rational, we might want to qeustion those impulses since they have taken the place of God’s commands.

 

[IWantGod]

superhero as well. Comic writers do it all the time

Back to conflating God with superheros again. Typical.

 

[Russell_SA]

If we are concerned with being rational, we might want to qeustion those impulses since they have taken the place of Go’s commands.

We have conversations all the time on what is the best way to express these moral tendencies we evolved. Where or not it is good or bad is up to you to let us know and why.

But you are passing up our past points that you are not addressing in my response:

Your deity is defined as perfect and its position on morality is what matters - Please demonstrate that your deity exists and has these qualities and why we should be convinced that it’s position on anything is any different than anyone else’s position on morality. All you’ve presented is it’s moral because you define it to be moral because it is moral because you define it to be moral. AKA the bible is true because the bible says its true.
Why does creating people allow your deity to own people?
Is there anything your deity can do that would not be moral to you?
How did your determine your deity was the moral one and the devil wasn’t?
Do you agree with me that my position on good or bad is a conclusion, not a preference?
You can have objective good and bad based on your problem you are solving in reference to a goal.
Isn’t truth claims demonstrable?

 

[IWantGod]

We have conversations all the time

You have conversations about why the human-race should continue to exist? i doubt it.

The best you could possibly come up with is that you prefer to exist than not exist, which is just something your brain has told you, since nothing you feel is of your own creation. You are just a product of the synapses firing in your brain…

 

[Russell_SA]

You are just a product of the synapses firing in your brain…

Can you demonstrate that reality is any different than this?

But you are passing up our past points that you are not addressing in my response:

Your deity is defined as perfect and its position on morality is what matters - Please demonstrate that your deity exists and has these qualities and why we should be convinced that it’s position on anything is any different than anyone else’s position on morality. All you’ve presented is it’s moral because you define it to be moral because it is moral because you define it to be moral. AKA the bible is true because the bible says its true.
Why does creating people allow your deity to own people?
Is there anything your deity can do that would not be moral to you?
How did your determine your deity was the moral one and the devil wasn’t?
Do you agree with me that my position on good or bad is a conclusion, not a preference?
You can have objective good and bad based on your problem you are solving in reference to a goal.
Isn’t truth claims demonstrable?

What is it about asking your followup on these points that is bringing out your inner coward to not address these and just keep moving on?

 

[IWantGod]

But you are passing up our past points that you are not addressing in my response:

How can i, i have no free-will. Everything i do say and think is just the inevitable result of blind physical processes. The idea that i can choose to do anything is absurd. I Guess you will just have to wait until my synapses fire in a way that is consistent with this conversation.

 

[IWantGod]

coward

Why should i respond to this? looool

 

[pocaracas]

It is not reasonable to think that Jews, poor or rich, would act against their religious convictions and claim that somebody is the son of God when they know they are not and possibly die for blasphemy knowing they would go to hell.

Are you saying that it’s not reasonable to think that people from a particular religious conviction would convert to another religion?

Also, I thought Hell was a Christian invention…

It’s absurd.

I think your strawman of reality is absurd too.
How can we get past this standoff?

I have no respect for the opinions of those who would rob humanity of objective moral worth, meaning and purpose, and then stand on their subjective moral high house judging Christians for their beliefs, in the hope that they can subjugate us to their make-believe ideology .

Tell me, is something objective if it is agreed by society? Like money’s objective value?
Or is it objective because it is a reality independent from any human judgment?

Morality, meaning and purpose seem to me to be social constructs. They can have evolved within our minds as a result of us being a social species. Those individuals with less inbuilt sense of these things would have a harder time procreating (and also surviving) than those with more sense, and thus there would have been a positive reinforcement of these senses in the individuals’ minds.
From our point of view, now or 1000 years ago, if we don’t consider such evolution, these senses would seem to be inherent to most humans and could easily be mistaken for an external single cause that applies them to every human.
From this perspective, the “moral high house judging” people would be those who fell into the mistake and managed for centuries to “subjugate us to their make-believe ideology”.

I know you think that Catholic Philosophy and metaphysics are flawless and everyone with more than one brain cell should have no difficulty in following it. But some of us disagree with that metaphysical view; we disagree with the premises, and, naturally, with the conclusions. We’ve spotted flaws, at least potential flaws that render it far from flawless, and we cannot follow through on the reasoning. In order to determine if those flaws are real or not, we need a reality check and science is our best tool for such a check.
Until it is possible to perform such a check, the metaphysics bits that seem to compete with evolution should perhaps be handed over to the potentially more likely evolution cause, subjective as it may seem and objective as its results may appear.

 

[IWantGod]

Are you saying that it’s not reasonable to think that people from a particular religious conviction would convert to another religion?

Jews were not converting to a new religion, they were simply following a man who they believed to be the messiah. And they believed him to be the messiah for very good reasons that already reflected their religious convictions, and he demonstrated himself to be the messiah to those who followed him. He wasn’t killed for being a social justice warrior or creating a new religion. Had he failed to live up to what he claimed to be within the context of Judaism, then Christianity would not exist. Had he claimed to be the son of God and didn’t perform miracles and didn’t rise from the dead, Christianity would not exist, because at the end of the day the people who followed Jesus were Jews and their religious conviction was in Judaism. Without Jesus as we know him , no jew has a reasonable motivation to follow Jesus once he had been proven not to be the messiah. They certainly had no motivation to risk their lives. The existence of Christianity makes no sense without a true messiah at it’s root.

Also, I thought Hell was a Christian invention…

I think you might be right on that. My bad. But they did have a concept of punishment Places like Sheol abbandon; a place of destruction. Sounds like hell. Hell as Christians portray it might be christian in origin, but it is a concept rooted in what they believe to be divine revelation…When you say invention you are simply dismissing peoples beliefs out of hand, and if that is your attitude, i am no-longer interested in discussing this any further.

 

[pocaracas]

I feel like we’re just talking past each other at this moment, so I’ll join you in not discussing this any further.

 

[Bradskii]

Russell_SA:

So your whole point here is human behavior towards an idea of magic verifies the magic.

No. How Jewish people responded to Jesus implies that he wasn’t just a liar. If he was just a man, nobody would have followed him.

How many people in history do you think that that statement could refer to? Well, every single person that people have followed and died for. Does that mean they were all supernaturally endowed? No. Does that mean that what they taught was correct? No. Does that mean what we know about that person has been accurately recorded? No. Does that mean that the person’s followers were entirely honest and trustworthy in representing their leaders views? No.

My brother claims he is married to an alien. He is not mad. He is not bad. And if you accept those two statements then you must believe he is telling the truth.

Or it it the case that the person reporting his claim is not being entirely accurate in reporting what he said…

 

[Bradskii]

Because he claimed to be the son of God.

That’s not accurate. What you should say is that it was reported by a small number of people long after the fact that…He claimed to be the son of God.

Do you think that all the aspects of Jesus’ life and all that He said were being recorded verbatim at the time He said them? I’ll wager that you couldn’t recount accurately what happened 3 weeks ago let alone 30 years back.

 

[sonofbarry]

I think it’s completely plausible that life is a happy accident of the universe and, therefore, as part of ‘nature’ (which is objective) has an objectivity to it. It just is. Life is objectively true.The value and purpose of that life is anyone’s guess – completely subjective.