Atheists: you cannot disprove the existence of GOd

[bobzills]

God is love, power, justice, and mercy. God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end and the source of knowledge can comprehend.

But it really doesn’t answer the question. I was reading how women from a certain area of the world are enslaved and tortured and used for prostittution. Its really pretty terrible what they do to these women. For example, there was a report concerning a woman who tried to escape and ran but then she was captured by the evil thugs. and to show the other enslaved women a lesson, they then tortured her slowly and finally shot out her knees. then as she was crippled, they left her there in the middle of no where to die. Here is the question: Why does a loving God permit such horrific evil such as was reported against this innocent woman in this case? Where was God when this woman was being tortured? Where was He when millions of His Chosen People were being starved and gassed to death by the Nazis?

 

[holy_wood]

But it really doesn’t answer the question. I was reading how women from a certain area of the world are enslaved and tortured and used for prostittution. Its really pretty terrible what they do to these women. For example, there was a report concerning a woman who tried to escape and ran but then she was captured by the evil thugs. and to show the other enslaved women a lesson, they then tortured her slowly and finally shot out her knees. then as she was crippled, they left her there in the middle of no where to die. Here is the question: Why does a loving God permit such horrific evil such as was reported against this innocent woman in this case? Where was God when this woman was being tortured? Where was He when millions of His Chosen People were being starved and gassed to death by the Nazis?

He was in the faces of their victims? He was there welcoming their souls into Heaven, for what sorrow can befall the heart of man which Heaven cannot heal?

God acts primarily through his creation (you and me). Millions are starving as we speak, what have you done about it lately?

We may not be able to stop the problem but we can contribute to its alleviation. God calls us all to feed the hungry, care for the sick, shelter the homeless and clothe the naked. Callings which the Catholic Church dutifully accepts.

If everyone were to follow the Churches example in this area do you think the world would be in the state its currently in?

My mom died two months ago. She was a very devout Catholic. She suffered for two years before she passed on. I don’t hate God.

Your attitude (inferred from the nature of the question) is similar to the Jews after the Exodus. God promised them a “land of milk and honey” but they had to suffer 40 years in the desert to get it. Many did not want to do this. They complained and fell into sin, some even wished to return to Egypt where they knew slavery and subjugation awaited.

They did this because they had a clear picture of what was behind them but could such a good one for what laid ahead.

The way I see it, the garden of Eden is like Egypt and are individual lives are like the desert. If we endure to the end then we will have our “land of milk and honey” for eyes have not seen and ears have not heard of what God has ready for those who love him.

God is only cruel if he does not compensate us for what evils he allows perpetrated against us.

You have to have faith in his promises. If you accept the premise that God is all-loving but not the premise that he is all-just and will give to each according to their due, then you are cherry-picking and only using suffering as an excuse for disbelief.

You can either have hope, courage, and faith in God or you can choose not to believe (or simply refuse to follow him) just because things didn’t turn out the way you would have liked them.

Any atheist who denies God must simply accept that the world just sucks and all suffering s ultimately meaningless.

 

[bobzills]

He was in the faces of their victims? He was there welcoming their souls into Heaven, for what sorrow can befall the heart of man which Heaven cannot heal?

God acts primarily through his creation (you and me). Millions are starving as we speak, what have you done about it lately?

We may not be able to stop the problem but we can contribute to its alleviation. God calls us all to feed the hungry, care for the sick, shelter the homeless and clothe the naked. Callings which the Catholic Church dutifully accepts.

If everyone were to follow the Churches example in this area do you think the world would be in the state its currently in?

My mom died two months ago. She was a very devout Catholic. She suffered for two years before she passed on. I don’t hate God.

Your attitude (inferred from the nature of the question) is similar to the Jews after the Exodus. God promised them a “land of milk and honey” but they had to suffer 40 years in the desert to get it. Many did not want to do this. They complained and fell into sin, some even wished to return to Egypt where they knew slavery and subjugation awaited.

They did this because they had a clear picture of what was behind them but could such a good one for what laid ahead.

The way I see it, the garden of Eden is like Egypt and are individual lives are like the desert. If we endure to the end then we will have our “land of milk and honey” for eyes have not seen and ears have not heard of what God has ready for those who love him.

God is only cruel if he does not compensate us for what evils he allows perpetrated against us.

You have to have faith in his promises. If you accept the premise that God is all-loving but not the premise that he is all-just and will give to each according to their due, then you are cherry-picking and only using suffering as an excuse for disbelief.

You can either have hope, courage, and faith in God or you can choose not to believe (or simply refuse to follow him) just because things didn’t turn out the way you would have liked them.

Any atheist who denies God must simply accept that the world just sucks and all suffering s ultimately meaningless.

I said it was an academic question which was brought to the fore by the topic of the thread. Atheists will often say that they do not believe a loving God would permit the horrible evil which they have either seen or heard about.

 

[holy_wood]

I said it was an academic question which was brought to the fore by the topic of the thread. Atheists will often say that they do not believe a loving God would permit the horrible evil which they have either seen or heard about.

Fine then I’ll argue my point more succinctly in an academic format.

Basically you are saying that the propositions that *God exists and *suffering exists are logically inconsistent and that somehow it is logically impossible for both to be true at the same time. Now they’re not explicitly contradictory. Therefore, if they are to be logically incompatible with each other, you have to bring out the hidden assumptions or premises that would show these to be logically impossible. and that

***First, if God is all-good, then He would want to create a world with no suffering;

Secondly, if God is all-powerful, He could prevent all suffering in the world, and therefore there should be no suffering. ***

First of all, if God is all-good, is it necessarily true that He would want to create a world with no suffering? I don’t think this is necessarily true. It might be true if God’s purpose were to create a comfortable environment for His human pets. But on the Christian view, we are not God’s pets. And the purpose of life is not happiness, as such, but rather the knowledge of God and His salvation which will ultimately bring true happiness. But many evils occur in life which are utterly pointless with respect to producing human happiness. But they may not be pointless with respect to producing a deeper knowledge of God. One would have to prove that there is another world that God could have created with this much knowledge of God and His salvation but with fewer evils. But how could anyone prove such a thing? It would be pure speculation.

It could be that if God were to create a world of free creatures in which He intervened every time to rescue us from suffering, this would be a world in which rational behavior was completely impossible. It would lead to total irresponsibility, total irrationality in our actions. ***It would mean that you could drive as fast as you wanted on the highway, you could drink or eat any substance you wanted to, enter any environment whether it be the vacuum of space, the frigid crushing depths of the ocean or the blistering magma rivers of a volcano. It would mean you could do anything to another person, you could act anyway you want, and nothing harmful would ever ensue as a consequence. *****

It would even mean that you need not eat, drink, or even reproduce because you need not preserve the species for you would never die.** ***For that matter the population of the world would grow exponentially because there would be an ever growing birth rate with a 0% mortality.

*** I think that when you think about this, clearly it would make rational behavior completely impossible. So if God creates a world that operates according to certain natural laws, then the fire that warms us will also inevitably be the fire that burns us, and it may well be the case that an all-good God would want to create a world governed by natural law, which includes the possibility of suffering.

Of course it’s also possible, as the Christian believes, that there’s an afterlife, in which God will compensate us for the sufferings that we have borne if we have borne these in courage, faith, and trust in Him for he too is all-just.

Every immoral act will be punished. So, if you put that into the equation, I think it makes it clear that it is not necessarily true that an all-good God would have to create a world in which there is no suffering.

Secondly, if God is all-powerful, can He in fact create a world of free creatures in which no suffering occurs? I think this is clearly not necessarily true. Given human freedom, God cannot guarantee how people are going to use that freedom. And if He intervenes every time to prevent people from choosing evil, then we turn into puppets. So if God is going to create a world of significantly free moral agents, He has to allow them to make choices for evil, and therefore it may not be within God’s power to create a world of free creatures in which evil does not exist.
In closing I think that I have shown that theist, and Christians in particular, are quite rationale in there belief in God. Questions about the creation account, Noah’s Ark, and other such stories in the OT can be addressed later

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[Aleii]

Of course it’s also possible, as the Christian believes, that there’s an afterlife, in which God will compensate us for the sufferings that we have borne if we have borne these in courage, faith, and trust in Him for he too is all-just.

Every immoral act will be punished. So, if you put that into the equation, I think it makes it clear that it is not necessarily true that an all-good God would have to create a world in which there is no suffering.

Secondly, if God is all-powerful, can He in fact create a world of free creatures in which no suffering occurs? I think this is clearly not necessarily true. Given human freedom, God cannot guarantee how people are going to use that freedom. And if He intervenes every time to prevent people from choosing evil, then we turn into puppets. So if God is going to create a world of significantly free moral agents, He has to allow them to make choices for evil, and therefore it may not be within God’s power to create a world of free creatures in which evil does not exist.

Jimmy Akin tries to go this route in explaining the “Hard Sayings of the OT”. Problem is, a perfect God should not need to compensate anyone in the first place, especially when coming into this world was not our choice to begin with. And as for a place with no evil, what about heaven? Why not just start everyone off there? Why play this game where we are bumbling about, trying to find the “correct” religion, among a sea of false ones, so that we can get to heaven?

 

[bobzills]

Fine then I’ll argue my point more succinctly in an academic format.
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Now before Adam and Eve committed their sin, was there not a world without pain and suffering? And this pain and suffering came in only after the sin of Adam and Eve? If God were all loving, then why did He just not forgive Adam and Eve and restore things to how they were before the fall?

 

[elvisman]

Now before Adam and Eve committed their sin, was there not a world without pain and suffering? And this pain and suffering came in only after the sin of Adam and Eve? If God were all loving, then why did He just not forgive Adam and Eve and restore things to how they were before the fall?

Because an all-loving God must punish his children when they do wrong. Any parent worth his or her salt would do the same - out of love. If God had done nothing to Adam and Eve after they disobeyed him - he wouldn’t have truly loved them because they would never have learned anything from the experience.

God is love - but God is also justice. Without justice there can be no love and no peace. Without justice there can be no salvation.

 

[holy_wood]

Now before Adam and Eve committed their sin, was there not a world without pain and suffering? And this pain and suffering came in only after the sin of Adam and Eve? If God were all loving, then why did He just not forgive Adam and Eve and restore things to how they were before the fall?

ha, ha, ha, ha… You should have read my last post more carefully or I should have worded it more succinctly.

Your attitude (inferred from the nature of the question) is similar to the Jews after the Exodus. God promised them a “land of milk and honey” but they had to suffer 40 years in the desert to get it. Many did not want to do this. They complained and fell into sin, some even wished to return to Egypt where they knew slavery and subjugation awaited.

They did this because they had a clear picture of what was behind them but could such a good one for what laid ahead.

The way I see it, the garden of Eden is like Egypt and are individual lives are like the desert. If we endure to the end then we will have our “land of milk and honey” for eyes have not seen and ears have not heard of what God has ready for those who love him.

Again, your like the Jews after the Exodus. This world is cruel and the suffering is pointless/ the desert is hot and we have been out here going on 40 yrs. now…

You have a clear picture of what awaits you in Eden but not a clear one of what awaits you in Heaven. Just as the Jews had to trust in God and Moses that they would receive their promise land so too must you trust in the Apostles and God that what awaits those who endure this world with courage, faith, and love will be a reward and destiny that our finite minds cannot begin to comprehend.

What do you want bobzills? Is it a palace or a shack? Which would you want for your children?

Furthermore, even if God did forgive Adam and Eve they still would have continued to sin. Don’t believe me? Well then go the rest of your life without sinning. Hey you might be able to do so and maybe I could I maybe but could you do so with fallen angels tempting you to disobey the will of God.

If your son or daughter went out one night, stole the car, got drunk, came home, and drove the car into the living room; would you still love them, would you forgive them? Now would you let the mistake go without punishment?b If not, why?

 

[bobzills]

Because an all-loving God must punish his children when they do wrong. ].

But the children did not do wrong. It was Adam and Eve who did wrong. Why then does a poot young lady who did no wrong, have to be kidnapped and tortured, and when she tries to escape her enslavement, she is beaten and her knees are shot at. In case you don;t know it, this is a particularly painful way to die.
An atheist would say that this is no answer to the question of why evil exists.

 

[bobzills]

ha, ha, ha, ha…

Sorry but I would not agree that it is a laughing matter to see what happens in the worldwide child slave trade. IT is pure evil, and it the horrible exploitation of children and women exists.

 

[Valke2]

To remove evil from the world, God would simply have to exercise justice without mercy and destroy us all. It is humans that choose to do evil. It is God, who tempers his judgment with mercy, that chooses to withhold the punishment that justice without mercy demands.

We don’t need God to remove evil from the world. We can always choose to do it ourselves. As for other forms of pain and suffering, a great deal could be avoided if we choose to direct our energies and resources away from killing each other and into finding solutions for the problems that would remain after we choose not to commit evil acts.

 

[elvisman]

But the children did not do wrong. It was Adam and Eve who did wrong. Why then does a poot young lady who did no wrong, have to be kidnapped and tortured, and when she tries to escape her enslavement, she is beaten and her knees are shot at. In case you don;t know it, this is a particularly painful way to die.
An atheist would say that this is no answer to the question of why evil exists.

**WHAT?? **Your question was:
"If God were all loving, then why did He just not forgive Adam and Eve and restore things to how they were before the fall?"

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Now you’re talking about a sinless woman being murdered? What does that have to do with your question?
Everbody sins. Sin is here because of what Adam and Eve did.

Romans 5:12 says:
"Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law."

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[bobzills]

Anothe question which might come up with reference to this question is why is the world as it is? for example,
Why did God create the fly? What is its purpose?
Why did God create the faraway galaxies? Could humans have existed and been OK with only the solar system? Why the need to create faraway galaxies which are billions of light years away ?

 

[elvisman]

Anothe question which might come up with reference to this question is why is the world as it is? for example,
Why did God create the fly? What is its purpose?
Why did God create the faraway galaxies? Could humans have existed and been OK with only the solar system? Why the need to create faraway galaxies which are billions of light years away ?

At the very least - the fly is part of the food chain.
We may someday discover why the earth needs the far away galaxies. Just because we don’t know something for certain doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a purpose.

What is your point here?

 

[holy_wood]

Anothe question which might come up with reference to this question is why is the world as it is? for example,
Why did God create the fly? What is its purpose?
Why did God create the faraway galaxies? Could humans have existed and been OK with only the solar system? Why the need to create faraway galaxies which are billions of light years away ?

The Vatican okay’s belief in aliens.
dogtownink.com/14/vatican-ok-to-believe-in-aliens-merger-with-scientology-in-the-works/

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

The Vatican okay’s belief in aliens.
dogtownink.com/14/vatican-ok-to-believe-in-aliens-merger-with-scientology-in-the-works/

Doesn’t this mock the Catholic Church?

 

[Matthias123]

Why should anyone disprove God’s existence? The burden of proof is on you. To argue that people must disprove your case is fallacious. It is not up to me to prove that God does not exist, its up for you to prove He does.

Christians 33.32% (of which Roman Catholics 16.99%, Protestants 5.78%, Orthodox 3.53%, Anglicans 1.25%), Muslims 21.01%, Hindus 13.26%, Buddhists 5.84%, Sikhs 0.35%, Jews 0.23%, Baha’is 0.12%, other religions 11.78%, non-religious 11.77%, atheists 2.32% (2007 est.)

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

You are the minority, therefore the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Matariel]

But the children did not do wrong. It was Adam and Eve who did wrong. Why then does a poot young lady who did no wrong, have to be kidnapped and tortured, and when she tries to escape her enslavement, she is beaten and her knees are shot at. In case you don’t know it, this is a particularly painful way to die.
An atheist would say that this is no answer to the question of why evil exists.

Dying on a cross is a particularly painful way to die too.

And also, we are morally culpable of Adam’s sin, because we are all emanations of Adam Kadmon.

 

[Aleii]

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

You are the minority, therefore the burden of proof is on you.

It is impossible to prove a negative - the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim in the first place.

The numbers game does not prove much as the ‘majority’ have been wrong in the past.

 

[crowonsnow]

There is no majority when it comes to believing in stories about gods, the majority being something greater than 50%. The “majority” of people just don’t think any particular god is real. That’s actually pretty revealing.