Atheists: you cannot disprove the existence of GOd

[CatsAndDogs]

You make valid point. Most disagreements I’ve seen get down to ambiguities that once resolved make arguments vanish.

Bingo! We have a winner!

People are AMAZINGLY reluctant to dig into the meanings of the terms they use in their “arguments”, mostly I think because they are so ill-formed in their own heads that they are embarrased to make that “intellectual ill-formedness” explicit!

…as the old saying goes, better to keep your mouth shut (or blither on about other things to distract your “opponent”) and let them think you’re a moron than to to open it and remove any doubt.

That is the way of the atheist. Distraction and evasion.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I had my first job at age 10,I picked beans on a farm over the summer at 25cents a bushel…later I had other jobs,in plants,factories,stores,a nite watchman,an armed guard,a janitor,postman etc.all before becoming a teacher…a high school teacher in a Catholic school…I have received over 500 hits on my email re: classmates.com from former students…one of the basic themes from them to me was that I was an understanding,sensitive,knowledgable (and funny)educator…I feel its because of my life before I became a certified teacher that made me that. Thus in life in general…our Creator,God…Jesus called ‘him’ father…re:Our father in heaven etc…is quite a smart dad for in exeperience lies life…one of the signs in my classroom was.‘storms make oaks take deeper roots"without pain and suffering we are like the pod people as illustrated in the classic flick…"the body snatchers’ just a dull,unimaginative clod working in an ant colony…thank you God these scars prove your love!!!

Thank you God, for your gift of Nino. Amen. Amen. Amen!

Only the unscarred, or more likely the un-fathered, could possibly see suffereing as “proof” of the non-existence of God. To the unscarred, live life. To the un-fathered, relentlessly find the Father, and accept no substitutes…

 

[bobzills]

You keep having to repeat yourself because your major premise

“1.If God exists, He must be all loving.”

is wrong…

So in your view, God does not have to be all - loving? I don;t see how this can possibly be true because it is contrary to Catholic teaching?

 

[Matariel]

When did God commit genocide? (what event do you have in mind?)

Peter Kreeft has a great book on the meaning of suffering I strongly recommend. He is a Catholic Apologist and a Professor of Philosophy at Boston College. He also has a MySpace page and welcomes questions.

I think by genocide she’s referring to the wars the Israelites were to wage against peoples of other territories.

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

So in your view, God does not have to be all - loving? I don;t see how this can possibly be true because it is contrary to Catholic teaching?

Understand that this is a thread for Atheists. We are speaking of God’s nonexistence. God’s nonexistence is a wholly different topic from His existence with certain Characteristics. There is a hierachy of facts here around which different questions may be asked.

(1) Does God exist or not exist?
(2) Is there one God or many Gods?
(3) What is the nature of this(these) God(Gods)? Loving or Disinterested.

To prove that God exists or does not exist in no way establishes that He is Loving or Hating or Disinterested. A completely different argument needs to be forulated to this end.

As a Catholic I believe…
God exists;
God is One;
God is loving and merciful and just.

If I were to argue any one of these points my argument would be different.

A complex question is logically fallacious because it has more than one term.

Disproving a loving God means disproving that God loves. One cannot disprove God’s existence by proving God is not loving.

 

[bobzills]

We are speaking of God’s nonexistence. God’s nonexistence is a wholly different topic from His existence with certain Characteristics. … One cannot disprove God’s existence by proving God is not loving.

This is where I would disagree with you.
I beleive that it is of the essence of God that He is all-loving. If there were a Being without the quality of all-loving, then I believe that according to Catholic priniciples and teaching, that Being would not be God. It would be some different Being.

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

This is where I would disagree with you.
I beleive that it is of the essence of God that He is all-loving. If there were a Being without the quality of all-loving, then I believe that according to Catholic priniciples and teaching, that Being would not be God. It would be some different Being.

I believe you are correct on this point because I am Catholic.

The issue at hand is that that “Being” may very well be called “God” by someone who is not Catholic, but clearly that “Being” does not really exist.

You see your premise must be proven before you use it to prove that God does not exist (this is your aim, no?).

You must first prove that if God were to exist, He must be loving. Only after you have successfully deduced this (you are working with syllogisms I point out) can you then use this as the major premise to your argument that God does not exist.

 

[bobzills]

You must first prove that if God were to exist, He must be loving. .

It has already been proven by St. Thomas:
“God loves all existing things. For all existing things, in so far as they exist, are good, since the existence of a thing is itself a good; and likewise, whatever perfection it possesses. Now it has been shown above (Question 19, Article 4) that God’s will is the cause of all things. It must needs be, therefore, that a thing has existence, or any kind of good, only inasmuch as it is willed by God. To every existing thing, then, God wills some good. Hence, since to love anything is nothing else than to will good to that thing, it is manifest that God loves everything that exists. Yet not as we love. Because since our will is not the cause of the goodness of things, but is moved by it as by its object, our love, whereby we will good to anything, is not the cause of its goodness; but conversely its goodness, whether real or imaginary, calls forth our love, by which we will that it should preserve the good it has, and receive besides the good it has not, and to this end we direct our actions: whereas the love of God infuses and creates goodness.”
newadvent.org/summa/1020.htm#article2

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

You believe this is proven and yet you are trying to prove God does not exist. Right?

It has already been proven by St. Thomas:
“God loves all existing things. For all existing things, in so far as they exist, are good, since the existence of a thing is itself a good; and likewise, whatever perfection it possesses. Now it has been shown above (Question 19, Article 4) that God’s will is the cause of all things. It must needs be, therefore, that a thing has existence, or any kind of good, only inasmuch as it is willed by God. To every existing thing, then, God wills some good. Hence, since to love anything is nothing else than to will good to that thing, it is manifest that God loves everything that exists. Yet not as we love. Because since our will is not the cause of the goodness of things, but is moved by it as by its object, our love, whereby we will good to anything, is not the cause of its goodness; but conversely its goodness, whether real or imaginary, calls forth our love, by which we will that it should preserve the good it has, and receive besides the good it has not, and to this end we direct our actions: whereas the love of God infuses and creates goodness.”
newadvent.org/summa/1020.htm#article2

 

[bobzills]

You believe this is proven and yet you are trying to prove God does not exist. Right?

If you would go back and reread what I have already written, you would see what my point has been all along.

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

OK. Respect the fact I am working hard for you here… I dug up your first post. I do recall it now. This is an academic argument.

I’ll not tire you by making this point again about your argument.

Your conclusion seems reasonable (if I accept the premises): there cannot be an all loving God.

This proves that an all loving God does not exist. It does not prove that God does not exist.

I actually do believe in God, but here is an argument that I have heard which is intended to prove that God does not exist. (I am presenting this as an academic argument):

1. God is all loveing and all powerful.
2. An all loving God would see to it that children are protected and He would see to it that there not be horrible harm and suffering borne by his creatures, and He would not tolerate evil.
3. Evil exists and there is horrible suffereing and cruelty toward innocent people and children in this world.
4. Therefore, there cannot be an all loving God, since an all loving God would not tolerated this type of evil and suffering which innocent people have to bear.

If you would go back and reread what I have already written, you would see what my point has been all along.

 

[bobzills]

OK. Respect the fact I am working hard for you here… I dug up your first post. I do recall it now. This is an academic argument.

I’ll not tire you by making this point again about your argument.

Your conclusion seems reasonable (if I accept the premises): there cannot be an all loving God.

This proves that an all loving God does not exist. It does not prove that God does not exist.

Once again we are going around in circcles.
Let’s try something else.
Do you think that it is possible for God to not be all-loving?

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

Once again we are going around in circcles.
Let’s try something else.
Do you think that it is possible for God to not be all-loving?

I don’t because God so loved the world that He gave His only son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish.

This is not the point, and we will go around in circles, because I apparently lack the capacity to communicate my point to you.

 

[burnside]

AnyoneAnybody&Bobzills

Why not call a truce and join up at this link?I’m franklin over there

forums.dailyrecord.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=10135

 

[Emmanuel111]

But Why are they sending the one out of this world? Because they want to rule the World even it does not belong to them! They don’t want you to hear the messages of One. The One does not want to use his authority yet!

 

[bobzills]

I don’t because God so loved the world that He gave His only son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish.

This is not the point, and we will go around in circles, because I apparently lack the capacity to communicate my point to you.

So God is all-loving.
Then why is there evil in the world?

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

So God is all-loving.
Then why is there evil in the world?

You aren’t dizzy yet from going in circles : ) I’m getting that way.

I could answer this for real or anticipate that you will argue God must not exist because there is evil (academically, of course).

God’s existence does not equal God’s existence as loving.

BUT perhaps you want me to answer this for real?
I will, but tell me your intentions.

I’m afraid of providing an answer only to find you will conclude God does not exist.

 

[bobzills]

You aren’t dizzy yet from going in circles : ) I’m getting that way.

I could answer this for real or anticipate that you will argue God must not exist because there is evil (academically, of course).

God’s existence does not equal God’s existence as loving.

BUT perhaps you want me to answer this for real?
I will, but tell me your intentions.

I’m afraid of providing an answer only to find you will conclude God does not exist.

How does one explain the terrible, horrific suffering that innocent people have to endure?

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

How does one explain the terrible, horrific suffering that innocent people have to endure?

I will recommend reading for you…

(1) John Paul II ‘s On the Meaning of Human Suffering
(2) Peter Kreeft’s Making sense out of Suffering
(3) C.S. Lewis’ A Grief Observed

If you choose one and read it with me I will discuss it with you on an appropriate thread.

 

[Matthias123]

Threads like these just re-enforce the belief that there is no conversion without the divine influence of the Holy Ghost.

“Nobody can say “Jesus is Lord” except through the Holy Spirit.” St. Paul said something along those lines.

I think we should stop arguing and start praying. Let God sort it out.

Pax Christi