Atheists: you cannot disprove the existence of GOd

[AnyoneAnybody]

I hope this comment does not pertain specifically to my amiable interchange with Bobzilla. I think we were arriving at a nice conclusion between us without intervention.

If not, please disregard this (but I felt a need to say something otherwise because of what the comment implies).

Threads like these just re-enforce the belief that there is no conversion without the divine influence of the Holy Ghost.

“Nobody can say “Jesus is Lord” except through the Holy Spirit.” St. Paul said something along those lines.

I think we should stop arguing and start praying. Let God sort it out.

Pax Christi

 

[Matthias123]

I hope this comment does not pertain specifically to my amiable interchange with Bobzilla. I think we were arriving at a nice conclusion between us without intervention.

If not, please disregard this (but I felt a need to say something otherwise because of what the comment implies).

No it wasn’t. I didn’t even read your exchange with Bobzilla. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

Thank you! BTW, I made a mistake in typing.

I should have written Bobzills. Sorry Bob!

No it wasn’t. I didn’t even read your exchange with Bobzilla. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[bobzills]

Thank you! BTW, I made a mistake in typing.

I should have written Bobzills. Sorry Bob!

Probably a typo. I make typos all the time. Its an easy thing to do.

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

Probably a typo. I make typos all the time. Its an easy thing to do.

It was definite a typo. The “s” and “a” are close together on the keyboard!

 

[Matariel]

So God is all-loving.
Then why is there evil in the world?

Easy:

1.God created human beings to reciprocate His love.

2.In order for them to do this, they must have free-will (as being forced to love is not love at all. It must be a free choice.)

3.Therefore, with free-will, they could choose to love God (by obedience) or reject God (by disobedience).

1. Humans chose to reject God, and therefore they brought evil in the world.

 

[Matariel]

So God is all-loving.
Then why is there evil in the world?

Easy:

1.God created human beings to reciprocate His love.

2.In order for them to do this, they must have free-will (as being forced to love is not love at all. It must be a free choice.)

3.Therefore, with free-will, they could choose to love God (by obedience) or reject God (by disobedience).

1. Humans chose to reject God, and therefore they brought evil in the world.
2. God can not magically sweep away our evil, because that would take away our free-will. However, this also means we can choose evil over good.
3. Thus, evil and good are both present in our world.

 

[Matariel]

So God is all-loving.
Then why is there evil in the world?

Easy:

1.God created human beings to reciprocate His love.

2.In order for them to do this, they must have free-will (as being forced to love is not love at all. It must be a free choice.)

3.Therefore, with free-will, they could choose to love God (by obedience) or reject God (by disobedience).

1. Humans chose to reject God, and therefore they brought evil in the world.
2. God cannot magically sweep away our evil, because that would take away our free-will. However, this also means we can choose evil over good.
3. Thus, evil and good are both present in our world.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

A complex question is logically fallacious because it has more than one term.

Disproving a loving God means disproving that God loves. One cannot disprove God’s existence by proving God is not loving.

If you could prove that God is “not loving”, then you prove that God is not God. That would indeed prove that God is nonexistent because God is either God or not-God, and (not-God) = (God qua God does not exist) = (God doesn’t exist).

Now, by mistakenly using the term “God” while meaning “Demon” your agrument would actually be accurate.

To “condescend” to the defiitions of God that atheists use (they insist on using “God” to mean “demon”) they run non-atheists around in endless circles “proving” nonsense such as the proposition that God could be anything BUT all-loving.

Atheists need to be nailed down, and not allowed to wander about on a leash of their making, gleefully dancing their demonic dance while flinging nonsense and calling it “argument”.

 

[SFTor]

Hello:

Why is it so hard for believers to simply believe without challenging atheists to disprove their faith?

I am an atheist. I have no quarrel with your faith as long as it is personal.

Tell me that I am wrong, and that I have to believe too, and I will argue with you.

Tell me that I can not be a moral, ethical person without sharing your faith, and I will tell you that I know that you are wrong.

Tell me how I should live, and I will tell you how you should live.

Tell me that your god is the one true god, and I will point out that you are an atheist too, with the exception of the god you believe in.

Tell me that you can prove that your god exists, and I will tell you that you have misunderstood your own faith.

Tell me that I cannot disprove the existence of your god, and I will point out that I don’t need to, as much as I don’t need to disprove the existence of anything that only exists in people’s minds.

Best,

Tor

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Hello:

Why is it so hard for believers to simply believe without challenging atheists to disprove their faith?

Atheists, just like non-atheists, show their faith by their actions. Atheists who act in unGodly ways will always be “challenged” by non-atheists, and we (non-atheists) would HOPE that you would challenge us when we are behaving un-whateverTheBasisOfYourBeliefsIs-ly.

I am an atheist. I have no quarrel with your faith as long as it is personal.

Nothing a Catholic does is only-personal. All actions involve the society in which we live. Every action that a Catholic performs will affect you, and everyone else.

Tell me that I am wrong, and that I have to believe too, and I will argue with you.

Get used to being told you are wrong when you are wrong. But never accept being forced to believe anything.

Tell me that I can not be a moral, ethical person without sharing your faith, and I will tell you that I know that you are wrong.

When you ARE being moral and ethical you ARE acting according to Catholic principles. When you are being immoral and unethical you are acting contrary to Catholic principles.

When you are being immoral and unethical you WILL be informed of that fact by a Catholic.

Tell me how I should live, and I will tell you how you should live.

We would rather show you how to live. It would be nice if we were better at this particular skill!

Tell me that your god is the one true god, and I will point out that you are an atheist too, with the exception of the god you believe in.

…and you will be told, in as exhaustive detail as you’ll accept, what “God” means, which you obviously have no concept of.

Tell me that you can prove that your god exists, and I will tell you that you have misunderstood your own faith.

I agree with you here, but we can show you as many “pointers” toward God as you can stomach.

Tell me that I cannot disprove the existence of your god, and I will point out that I don’t need to, as much as I don’t need to disprove the existence of anything that only exists in people’s minds.

Yet you can’t invalidate the proof that God has given us, and not yourself, which we are duty bound to try to help people motivate themselves toward working to have given to them.

You say you have no need for a reason to be moral and ethical, which is what “knowing God exists” actually means, while you do strive to be moral and ethical. So, why DO you strive to be moral and ethical?

That striving is called your faith, and is never “atheistic” in nature. It is always becoming more and more acquainted with God.

Best,

Tor

Best to you Tor.

 

[SFTor]

Atheists, just like non-atheists, show their faith by their actions. Atheists who act in unGodly ways will always be “challenged” by non-atheists, and we (non-atheists) would HOPE that you would challenge us when we are behaving un-whateverTheBasisOfYourBeliefsIs-ly.

Hello Cats:

Thanks for your reply! Many interesting thoughts here. I agree that we should all challenge each other about our chosen path through the world. With generosity and humor, of course.

By the way, do you know what I like the best about this site? No commercialism. It’s about living, and about the mysteries we all grapple with. I am getting sick of the consumerism that is all around us. Thank you for being part of a forum where the cars we drive is not important.

Nothing a Catholic does is only-personal. All actions involve the society in which we live. Every action that a Catholic performs will affect you, and everyone else.

 

[SFTor]

When you are being immoral and unethical you WILL be informed of that fact by a Catholic.

You missed my point by the way. I was making the point that I can be a moral person without sharing the Catholic faith, or any other faith for that matter.

Best,

Tor

 

[bobzills]

Easy:

1.God created human beings to reciprocate His love.

2.In order for them to do this, they must have free-will (as being forced to love is not love at all. It must be a free choice.)

3.Therefore, with free-will, they could choose to love God (by obedience) or reject God (by disobedience).

1. Humans chose to reject God, and therefore they brought evil in the world.
2. God cannot magically sweep away our evil, because that would take away our free-will. However, this also means we can choose evil over good.
3. Thus, evil and good are both present in our world.

Thanks. This is an interesting argument which has a lot going for it, except that it leaves unanswered as to why the innocent have to suffer horrible pain and torture. These were innocent people who have had to undergo excruciating pain and agony. Is that fair for them, while the guilty parties go free?

 

[BLUEMOON74]

I’m sorry but that’s just a dumb analogy. You’re going to have to do a lot better then that.

Why should anyone disprove God’s existence? The burden of proof is on you. To argue that people must disprove your case is fallacious. It is not up to me to prove that God does not exist, its up for you to prove He does.

All that is required for atheism to win is for Christianity to be silent.

The floor is yours. Prove God exists; I dare you.

That statement means about as much to an atheist as my morning **** did.

Come on people! One of the things that drives me nuts about Catholics is their inability to argue, if you believe it then learn to defend it!

Read everything you can about Saint Padre Pio…everything. I dare you to say a novena to him; I dare you! If you don’t, you’re chicken----…I’m serious.

 

[Nino]

Well,lets see…no existence after death…so a human who believes in this concept of the meaning of life…(no better then a bug) dies…if he/she is wrong…and there is IS life after death he will only know he was wrong…while I on the other hand…believe that we are more then an accident that when I die I will have a further life I will be aware…so If I am right I will know it…and if I am wrong I wont know it…mmmmm…I will stay a believer!!! [edited]

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

Please read:

(1) John Paul II ‘s On the Meaning of Human Suffering
(2) Peter Kreeft’s Making sense out of Suffering
(3) C.S. Lewis’ A Grief Observed

Thanks. This is an interesting argument which has a lot going for it, except that it leaves unanswered as to why the innocent have to suffer horrible pain and torture. These were innocent people who have had to undergo excruciating pain and agony. Is that fair for them, while the guilty parties go free?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Nothing a Catholic does is only-personal. All actions involve the society in which we live. Every action that a Catholic performs will affect you, and everyone else.

Are you quoting Karl Marx here? He had the same idea: “every action is political.” Funny how great minds think alike.

<Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle, chuckle, chuckle…>

Uh, that would be… NO!

Marx’s problem was that society WAS God to him. Of course, only the “more equal” parts of society were worth treating as “Godly” to him, and the rest were subhuman trash, fit only for slavery and/or death.

That’s what happens when anyone or anything is misidentified as God who isn’t God.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
When you ARE being moral and ethical you ARE acting according to Catholic principles. When you are being immoral and unethical you are acting contrary to Catholic principles.

When you are being immoral and unethical you WILL be informed of that fact by a Catholic.

I completely agree, but I am not acting only according to Catholic principles. Look at Jimmy Carter (a moral person in my mind), he belonged to Maran Ata of all things. I also know several atheists and Buddhists I would take on as role models any day. Already have, come to think of it.

Catholic principles of behavior contain ALL moral and ethical behavior. There are no moral or ethical behaviors espoused by any other human (or otherwise) group which are not also Catholic moral and ethical behaviors.

Catholics have no monopoly on acting morally and/or ethically, but no act is moral or ethical unless it is found in Catholic morals and ethics.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
…and you will be told, in as exhaustive detail as you’ll accept, what “God” means, which you obviously have no concept of.

I know what “God” means, Cats. Trust me.

My response was to what you had said:
Quote: Tor:
Tell me that your god is the one true god, and I will point out that you are an atheist too, with the exception of the god you believe in.

God is singular. There is but one God. To say that we worship “one of the gods” is to say that YOU believe that there are more than the one God.

You are simply incorrect as to your definition of God, in that case, and therefore do not actually have a clue as to the meaning of “God”, ol’ buddy.

You don’t know what God means, Tor.

We DO believe in demons, which is what people who posit “the gods” actually misidentify as “peers” of the one true God.