Atheists!

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Skavau said:
By ‘my God’ do you mean contain the power of ‘God’?. If so, these forces are not the ‘God’ that you believe in.

Your definition of God appears to be power.
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That’s where it starts, God is most basically the power that creates and controls the universe.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
That’s where it starts, God is most basically the power that creates and controls the universe.
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You defined the ‘forces of the universe’ as God (whatever that is supposed to be). That is not your definition of God, unless your God is plural.
 
MH84 said:
You classed a group of people with very demeaning words.
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Since I’m a Grandmother, I find your derisively calling me a “girl” in a previous post to be offensive.

As for your charge that I classed a group of people in a demeaning way ~ I did no such thing. But it appears you want to deny the context in which I wrote it for some reason known only to you. (Also, like Petrus, I’m listening to my inner censor.)

I find this line of discussion unproductive. As such, I will no longer read your posts.
 
MH84 said:
But if you are not getting caught, why would an atheist care?
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Because an Atheist might, just might assert an ethical system by principles.

I fear projection here. Why would you care yourself?
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MH84:
Maybe because we all have a sense of marality to follow.
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Yes. Most of us do. Your point?
 
MH84 said:
You reported me over that?
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Did I say that I did? If you read the post, I said I did not. But it might have been a good idea, especially in view of your subsequent behavior.

And now I’ll proceed to my “Ignore” list.
 
MH84 said:
But if you are not getting caught, why would an atheist care?
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That implies a very weird argument. Like, if there is no punishment in the afterlife, one can commit any crime as long he is not caught. And as atheists don’t believe in such a punishment, they feel free to commit any crime or atrocity.
Well, if you ask me, that doesn’t tell us anything about whether there really is such a punishment or a god imposing it, but it tells us alot about the people who are only behaving themselves because of the expected punishment.
I feel much more comfortable with people not being criminal because they realise some behaviours are plainly wrong for some very rational arguments rather than out of fear.
 
AnAtheist said:
That implies a very weird argument. Like, if there is no punishment in the afterlife, one can commit any crime as long he is not caught. And as atheists don’t believe in such a punishment, they feel free to commit any crime or atrocity.
Well, if you ask me, that doesn’t tell us anything about whether there really is such a punishment or a god imposing it, but it tells us alot about the people who are only behaving themselves because of the expected punishment.
I feel much more comfortable with people not being criminal because they realise some behaviours are plainly wrong for some very rational arguments rather than out of fear.
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Many athiests probably don’t do wrong things because they are scared of consequenses such as “gettinh caught”, being hurt, embarrassment, jail, being punished by others, or losing relationships.
 
MH84 said:
Many athiests probably don’t do wrong things because they are scared of consequenses such as “gettinh caught”, being hurt, embarrassment, jail, being punished by others, or losing relationships.
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And how do you know that then?

Oh wait, you don’t. It is just another sweeping generalisation on a group you evidently know absolutely nothing about.
 
MH84 said:
Many athiests probably don’t do wrong things because they are scared of consequenses such as “gettinh caught”, being hurt, embarrassment, jail, being punished by others, or losing relationships.
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Yes, probably. As are a lot of religious people. What is the point?
Is it somehow better to fear eternal punishment or the wrath of God than to fear earthly punishment and the wrath of society?
Is it somehow better to do good things out of religious motives or the love of God than out of secular motives or just because one is a nice person?
Isn’t doing the good and not the bad stuff far more important than why someone’s doing it?
 
Skavau said:
And how do you know that then?

Oh wait, you don’t. It is just another sweeping generalisation on a group you evidently know absolutely nothing about.
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This is my last post here. I won’t be able to remain charitable.

skavau, an atheist (literally), made a sweeping statement that I was responding to. Anyway, my post had nothing to do with you.

You don’t seem to like to provide any actual answers. I forgot that you were too tired or something. :rolleyes:

Anyway, nice chatting with you all. I hope that all the new posters enjoy this forum. 👍
 
MH84 said:
This is my last post here. I won’t be able to remain charitable.
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That’s a relief. I’m trying to recall anything charitable MH84 has said so far, but the ad hominem attacks are what stand out. Now, back to serious and considerate discussion!
 
drpmjhess said:
That’s a relief. I’m trying to recall anything charitable MH84 has said so far, but the ad hominem attacks are what stand out. Now, back to serious and considerate discussion!
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Ah C’mon. Comparatively speaking he/she is a child in regards to at least some (if not many) of the rest of us (although I’m sure he/she would be offended by that description!)

In responding to him/her, I had occasion to read again about charity on the forum. I think we can probably chalk most of what MH84 has said to youthful exuberance, well-meaning but perhaps a bit misguided, don’t you? (I’m doing some advance training to be the Grandmother of a teenager, can you tell? 😃 )

Anyway, even though I can no longer read his/her posts because I have put them on “ignore”, I think we might give him/her a “mulligan” here. Going by the last post, I think he/she may have learned something. Of course, there are others that were far more insulted than I, so they may have another opinion. But in the end, we believe that justice belongs to God, don’t we?

And, it’s LENT.
 
AnAtheist said:
Yes, probably. As are a lot of religious people. What is the point?
Is it somehow better to fear eternal punishment or the wrath of God than to fear earthly punishment and the wrath of society?
Is it somehow better to do good things out of religious motives or the love of God than out of secular motives or just because one is a nice person?
Isn’t doing the good and not the bad stuff far more important than why someone’s doing it?
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AnAtheist, you’re right – it degrades the moral quality of an action if people are motivated by either fear of hell or fear of the law. I don’t know whether moral consciousness antedates spiritual awareness or whether they develop in parallel, but moral consciousness seems to have developed over the centuries. Aldo Leopold notes in A Sand County Almanac that in the ancient world, only free males had independent moral considerability, with the circle gradually widening to incorporate women, children, slaves, homosexuals, and eventually animals and the natural world.

Still, what troubles me is what the ultimate ground of morality is in an atheistic metaphysic. I hear non-theists casually say things like “it was meant to be” or “we ought to do X.” But If there is no being to do the intending or the meaning, how can anything be “meant to be”? If there is no ultimate ground of meaning, how can there be any “ought”? Conservative theists are wrong to argue that atheists recognize no moral obligation. There is moral obligation, springing from enlightened self-interest: the Confucian maxim “Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.” For an atheist the wrongness of murder or rape is not built into the universe; rather, we as a society declare them to be wrong because we don’t want to be murdered or raped ourselves. It’s a simple matter of prudence.

Petrus
 
Skavau said:
You defined the ‘forces of the universe’ as God (whatever that is supposed to be). That is not your definition of God, unless your God is plural.
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All the forces are the one God that makes you exist and controls you.
 
drpmjhess said:
Conservative theists are wrong to argue that atheists recognize no moral obligation. There is moral obligation, springing from enlightened self-interest: the Confucian maxim “Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.” For an atheist the wrongness of murder or rape is not built into the universe; rather, we as a society declare them to be wrong because we don’t want to be murdered or raped ourselves. It’s a simple matter of prudence.
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Exactly. And furthermore the wrongness or let’s say the *feeling of wrongness *is built into us - not the universe. “Built” meaning “has developped/evolved” from our point of view.
You can’t hunt big game with your bare hands or mere wooden spears without acting as group.
You can’t bring up your offsprings without team play because human infants are born far too early to be able to survive more or less on their own.
So any society between 2,000,000 and 20,000 B.C. would not have survived, if their members couldn’t trust each other. And you naturally do not trust people stealing your stuff, lying to you or trying to hurt or even kill you. Thus all that is socially unexceptable behaviour.
 
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