Atheists!

[FaithofAbraham]

Then I’m confused. Do you believe humans have radical free will, or that they are mere puppets controlled by God, or something else between these extremes?

Since God created everything to go according to His plan we are just experiencing what He has already determined for us.

 

[Skavau]

FaithOfTheAbraham:

All the forces are the one God that makes you exist and controls you.

So your world view negates the entire concept free-will (thus removing any onus I have to explain my disbelief in God) and decides that the ‘forces of the universe’ are ‘one God’.

I can’t help but notice various logical jumps there.

FaithOfAbraham:

Since God created everything to go according to His plan we are just experiencing what He has already determined for us.

So why even bother criticising Atheists or anyone then? I’m just doing part of God’s plan under your world view.

 

[drpmjhess]

Since God created everything to go according to His plan we are just experiencing what He has already determined for us.

No, this completely negates free will, and makes automata of us. Calvinists in sixteenth century Geneva quickly discovered that this kind of deterministic theology could lead to moral libertinism, because either:

(1) we had been determined to election before God even created us, so nothing we could do would condemn us to hell, or

(2) we had been reprobated to hell before God even created us, so nothing we could do would bring us salvation.

Your determinism is incompatible with Catholic moral theology.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So your world view negates the entire concept free-will (thus removing any onus I have to explain my disbelief in God) and decides that the ‘forces of the universe’ are ‘one God’.

I can’t help but notice various logical jumps there.

They are one God and control everything from the universe to what goes on in your head. I’ll post this again:

*Some people believe we are something beyond neurons, but of course we are not. We are just the sum total of the activity of neurons. We assume that we have free will and that we make decisions, but we don’t. Neurons do. We decide that this sum total driving us is a decision we have made for ourselves. But it is not. *Neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinás

So why even bother criticising Atheists or anyone then? I’m just doing part of God’s plan under your world view.

So am I.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No, this completely negates free will, and makes automata of us. Calvinists in sixteenth century Geneva quickly discovered that this kind of deterministic theology could lead to moral libertinism, because either:

(1) we had been determined to election before God even created us, so nothing we could do would condemn us to hell, or

(2) we had been reprobated to hell before God even created us, so nothing we could do would bring us salvation.

Your determinism is incompatible with Catholic moral theology.

It’s not incompatible with the Bible. Free will is an illusion. You don’t decide if you believe or not, God does.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Booklover]

It’s not incompatible with the Bible. Free will is an illusion. You don’t decide if you believe or not, God does.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I see you’re still posting the same nonsense! :whacky:

Vickie

 

[drpmjhess]

It’s not incompatible with the Bible. Free will is an illusion. You don’t decide if you believe or not, God does.

Logically there should be no hell or punishment, then. God caused Hitler to kill six million Jews, God caused Judas to betray Jesus, and God caused you to argue that free will is an illusion. Presto – moral responsibility disappears!

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Logically there should be no hell or punishment, then. God caused Hitler to kill six million Jews, God caused Judas to betray Jesus, and God caused you to argue that free will is an illusion. Presto – moral responsibility disappears!

Does entertaining the thought that God controls everything make you want to go out and sin? Do you think you only not sin because of the threat of hell?

 

[Skavau]

Does entertaining the thought that God controls everything make you want to go out and sin? Do you think you only not sin because of the threat of hell?

Under your world view, God controls everything - so whether someone sins is completely irrelevant to what they want and it is all because God commands them to.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Under your world view, God controls everything - so whether someone sins is completely irrelevant to what they want and it is all because God commands them to.

God also commands what you want and don’t want. As far as what you are experiencing it is your own want, even though it’s just an illusion. But I’m not sure what you are asking or stating.

 

[drpmjhess]

Does entertaining the thought that God controls everything make you want to go out and sin? Do you think you only not sin because of the threat of hell?

In your deterministic world there is no possibility of my wanting or not wanting anything. If God controls everything, as you claim, that includes my wants and desires, my hope for heaven and fear of hell.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

In your deterministic world there is no possibility of my wanting or not wanting anything. If God controls everything, as you claim, that includes my wants and desires, my hope for heaven and fear of hell.

Your will is either determined by either God or Satan, who God also controls. Jesus said he followed God’s will not his own. Is it bad to be like Jesus?

 

[drpmjhess]

Your will is either determined by either God or Satan, who God also controls. Jesus said he followed God’s will not his own. Is it bad to be like Jesus?

It is neither bad nor good; there is no morality if God controls all the choices, even over Stan. You had no choice but to write what you just did, since God controls you.

 

[MelanieAnne]

It’s interesting to see what happens when you make up your own religion!!

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It is neither bad nor good; there is no morality if God controls all the choices, even over Stan. You had no choice but to write what you just did, since God controls you.

There is good and evil but you have no control over it. Anything good you do is from God, everything else is Satan.

 

[Skavau]

There is good and evil but you have no control over it. Anything good you do is from God, everything else is Satan.

You just said that God controls Satan, so by extension anything Satan makes you do is actually what God makes you do. There is no ‘good’ or ‘evil’, there is only what God has determined in your world view.

Your pre-programmed utopia is impervious to good, evil, justice and is ultimately purposeless.

 

[lkddav]

There is good and evil but you have no control over it. Anything good you do is from God, everything else is Satan.

Hello FOA

I have just read through this thread. You have painted yourself into a corner, congratulations !!

Exactly what religion are you??

 

[drpmjhess]

There is good and evil but you have no control over it. Anything good you do is from God, everything else is Satan.

You contradict yourself. As you state the case it above, you are a perfect Manichaean, with God and Satan co-equals in their contestation over souls in the world. However, your post 126 directly contradicts your post 123. You can’t have it both ways; which way do you really understand it? You may be happy living a contradiction, but it renders your argument incomprehensible to others.

Petrus

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You just said that God controls Satan, so by extension anything Satan makes you do is actually what God makes you do. There is no ‘good’ or ‘evil’, there is only what God has determined in your world view.

Your pre-programmed utopia is impervious to good, evil, justice and is ultimately purposeless.

God creates good and evil, Satan is that evil force. Because God created and allows it makes no difference to our experience of it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You contradict yourself. As you state the case it above, you are a perfect Manichaean, with God and Satan co-equals in their contestation over souls in the world. However, your post 126 directly contradicts your post 123. You can’t have it both ways; which way do you really understand it? You may be happy living a contradiction, but it renders your argument incomprehensible to others.

Petrus

What do you say contradicts? God created and controls everything, including Satan, I never said anything different.