Attack on Pope Francis Must Stop

[EvangelistVictor]

Ad Hominem attacks won’t help your point.

The passage you posted just proves my point. Jesus wasn’t going to bar the woman from being in a relationship with the Lord, but He does give the command to not sin anymore.

He didn’t say “Go now and go back to the man you were committing adultery with.”

If someone is repentant and wants forgiveness they won’t be turned away. but the condition is that they will make a movement to cut the sin out of their lives. This is written as well in Amoris Laetitia.

It’s the same with all sins, the condition for forgiveness is that we will not continue to sin in this way

So let say a young couple in their 20’s gets divorced for lets say abuse, or just had too many fights and in their young immaturity they divorced. The church then won’t grant one of them an annulment. That person then, unforgiven by the church must burn in lust for the rest of his life, 60+ more years, never to remarry???

This is what Pope Francis is trying to fix.

 

[Kris34]

Much of what people criticize the Pope for is later retracted in the media as not really said by him or not said in the context that was reported. I really would like the fake media to cut it out and stop inflaming people. Not only on this issue. I’d like them to go back to reading aloud boring facts with no agenda. I’d like questions to be different and not the same 8 questions repeated at a WH press briefing. After a statement in the very topic was already made. There is so much in the world we don’t know what is happening cause they are wasting their time. Most things reportedly said by the Pope are later clarified by the Vatican a day or two later. More space that could be used by telling us something else that is going on in the world.

 

[pnewton]

The passage you posted just proves my point. Jesus wasn’t going to bar the woman from being in a relationship with the Lord, but He does give the command to not sin anymore.

However, he gave this instruction after he forgave her, and he forgave her without her repentance, or asking for forgiveness.

 

[AdamP88]

So let say a young couple in their 20’s gets divorced for lets say abuse, or just had too many fights and in their young immaturity they divorced. The church then won’t grant one of them an annulment. That person then, unforgiven by the church must burn in lust for the rest of his life, 60+ more years, never to remarry???

This is what Pope Francis is trying to fix.

If you enter into a marriage young without knowing that your spouse is abusive, that is likely grounds for an annulment.

However, if you go into a marriage with eyes open and fully aware of what marriage actually is then yes, you must deal with that for the rest of your life.

If my wife leaves me tomorrow, I am bound to remain celibate until one of us dies. That is what marriage is. Until death.

The problem is not Church teaching, it is people who believe they should be able to remarry despite the fact that they already are committed to another person for life.

The Church generally allows annulment in “hard cases”. Pope Francis is trying to make it easier for hard cases to be dealt with, but he doesn’t say that all people in these situations should be able to receive the Eucharist. it may be a slow process to get to that point.

 

[JW55]

I think you have made some good points. Obviously, things fall on touchy ground where the dividing line on our ability to make critical comment of what the Pope is speaking as direction or just opinion. The Pope speaks to us in regard to the issues of faith and morals. We definitely need to take note on those. There are a lot of other variables involved regarding the issues of as you say, political issues. His position in these areas may fall outside an issue of faith and morals and into the area of personal opinion. These opinions would not be as clear as outside his realm as say accepting his opinion on how to install a water softener or the best method to execute a tennis backhand.

On occasion his responses do seem vague or may leave the door open for controversy. Some times this is clarified by someone else with ," well the Pope meant…". The nature of our media today is a serious problem. Communication is instantaneous these days and can be disseminated by a variety of sources. You may hear the Pope said something and then days later you find he didn’t actually say it or it was taken out of context. Many of our sources are often times no more than blogs or editorial opinions rather the dispersing the news. In years past these things were generally written, reviewed and handled in a controlled manner to assure the facts were past on. We have to use much more of a filter today on information we receive.

 

[EvangelistVictor]

However, if you go into a marriage with eyes open and fully aware of what marriage actually is then yes, you must deal with that for the rest of your life.

So basically any other sin can be fully forgiven like, murder, commit homosexual sin, rape, steal, do drugs, fornication etc, but if I break the marriage vow, I can NEVER be forgiven, and never remarry.

I never knew Jesus blood could not fully cleanse all sins. This is new theology to me.

 

[Joe_5859]

So basically any other sin can be fully forgiven like, murder, commit homosexual sin, rape, steal, do drugs, fornication etc, but if I break the marriage vow, I can NEVER be forgiven, and never remarrying.

I see where you are coming from. It can seem unfair. Divorce and remarriage is more complicated than the others because, even if the person goes and confesses and is forgiven, they are still sharing a life with that person. Their very state of life is the issue.

I understand it gets dicey. I’m not trying to pass judgment. Believe me, I have many family members who have been married 2, 3, 4 times. One of them did bother to go through the annulment process, and it was a huge blessing for them.

But let’s look at it from another perspective. Look at the person who is going through a trial in their marriage and clinging to Catholic teaching to persevere. Now imagine they think the Church is opening the doors for divorce and remarriage. Now they have permission to just cut-and-run when times are tough because they can just get remarried civilly later on and still carry on as a practicing Catholic in good standing.

Or imagine the person who was divorced and remarried and has been remarried for 30 years. Now they decide to go through the annulment process. After two years, and hundreds of dollars, they are finally free to have their present marriage convalidated. But wait, their next door neighbor who was in a similar situation just decided to skip the whole annulment thing and receive the Eucharist anyway. Might that person be a little angry that they did things the “right” way, while their neighbor essentially took a “short cut”?

Anecdotes make for poor policy decisions. Pope Francis hasn’t changed the teaching here. He’s allowed for some ambiguity to go unanswered—which is different. I don’t really fault him for that. He’s trying to navigate some complicated waters. And, indeed, there are some situations where it is difficult and the answers aren’t easy.

 

[EvangelistVictor]

Pope Francis hasn’t changed the teaching here. He’s allowed for some ambiguity to go unanswered—which is different. I don’t really fault him for that. He’s trying to navigate some complicated waters. And, indeed, there are some situations where it is difficult and the answers aren’t easy.

Pope Francis understands the signs of our times. Once the feminist movement blew up, divorce skyrocketed also. I pray He makes a good change, so people like my father don’t get denied the Eucharist for the rest of their lives.

Who are we do deny Jesus to anybody who has fully repented of their sins, no matter the circumstances.

 

[somecanadian]

I agree with you OP.

Pope Francis has done and said some things that made me wince and I recognize that popes can be ‘bad’ but I truly feel it’s just wrong to speak out publicly and loudly against him. He is, after all, Christ’s vicar and these public and vocal attacks against him cause confusion and scandal in the world at large. IMHO.

 

[Augustinian]

Recently I’ve seen several attacks on Pope Francis by other Priest and Catholics

I’m not saying this is what you are doing here, but a lot of times people see simple disagreement as an “attack”.

A lot of people disagree with the Pope, particularly in regards to politics. That’s always been the case

 

[Rob2]

Recently I’ve seen several attacks on Pope Francis by other Priest and Catholics.

I am pleased you brought this problem up , @EvangelistVictor , since it is one which we need to be constantly on the guard against .

From the earliest days of the Church Christians have had to be reminded of the respect they owe to their spiritual superiors for it is in the nature of many to rebel .

I have lived during seven pontificates , Popes Pius XII , John XXIII , Paul VI , John Paul I , John Paul II , Benedict XVI , and Francis .

When he was dead Pope Pius XII came under scurrilous attacks , many of them based upon lies regarding his behaviour towards the Jews during WW 2 .

Pope John XXIII seems to have got off lightly .

Pope Paul VI during his papacy suffered scurrilous attacks , many of them of a very personal nature .

Pope John Paul I was pope for only 33 days so he got off lightly .

Pope John Paul II was attacked from Day 1 .

Pope Benedict was attacked from Day 1 .

Pope Francis’ attacks are the subject of this thread .

With the development of social media it has become all to easy for people to make anonymous attacks on others , a habit which has increased over recent years , and could become epidemic if it is not stemmed . This in relation to the Pope and other Catholic leaders could have a severe impact on the unity of the Church .

A suggested prayer for the Holy Father from Regnum Christi - - - - - - - - -

Christ Jesus, King and Lord of the Church, in your presence I renew my unconditional loyalty to your Vicar on earth, Pope Francis . In him you have chosen to show us the safe and sure path that we must follow in the midst of confusion, uneasiness, and unrest. I firmly believe that through him you govern, teach and sanctify us; with him as our shepherd, we form the true Church: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Grant me the grace to love, live and spread faithfully our Holy Father’s teachings. Watch over his life, enlighten his mind, strengthen his spirit, defend him from calumny and evil. Calm the erosive winds of infidelity and disobedience. Hear our prayer and keep your Church united around him, firm in its belief and action, that it may truly be the instrument of your redemption. Amen

 

[Joe_5859]

Who are we do deny Jesus to anybody who has fully repented of their sins, no matter the circumstances.

But that’s exactly what is at issue. Obviously, we do not deny Jesus to anyone who repents. But is someone who divorced and remarried and doesn’t want to bother seeking an annulment repentant? If you confess your sins to a priest, but then tell the priest you plan on going right back to them, that’s not repentance.

And I understand it gets difficult in these situations. The understanding of marriage is so poor in our culture, and people do dumb things when they are young. So I understand why some feel they are being “punished” for the mistakes of their youth. But then why not pursue an annulment?

 

[pnewton]

But that’s exactly what is at issue. Obviously, we do not deny Jesus to anyone who repents. But is someone who divorced and remarried and doesn’t want to bother seeking an annulment repentant?

That is a good question. If you change the last part to being unable to get an annulment, I would answer, “Maybe?”

 

[EvangelistVictor]

And I understand it gets difficult in these situations. The understanding of marriage is so poor in our culture, and people do dumb things when they are young. So I understand why some feel they are being “punished” for the mistakes of their youth. But then why not pursue an annulment?

Not everybody gets approved for annulment also. Again, no blood of Jesus here also.

 

[Joe_5859]

Fair enough. And I’d wager those are ultimately the types of situations Pope Francis has in mind with the ambiguity. None of the various bishop statements (as far as I can tell) is advocating opening up Communion to all the divorced and remarried regardless of circumstances. They speak rather of accompaniment, which I take to mean people in unique circumstances, not just anyone.

I think the fear of many of Pope Francis’ critics on this issue is that opening the door even an inch will allow the flood waters to rush through. I can see why people have that fear. Look at what happened with artificial contraception. The Lambeth conference of the Anglicans in 1930 opened the door just a little bit to allow for married couples to use it in certain circumstances. But that quickly turned into artificial contraception being acceptable in general.

Some Catholics are worried the same thing would happen here. If it is suddenly okay for any and every Catholic to just go to Confession, and continue in their 2nd marriage as though the 1st never existed (without obtaining an annulment), then what does that say with regards to Catholic teaching on the indissolubility of marriage? How seriously will Catholics or anyone take that teaching if people can essentially do whatever they want with no consequences?

I recognize there are no easy answers here.

 

[EricF]

There is an EWTN personality who seems to have made it his personal mission to put out hit pieces on Pope Francis. When I hear his voice, even for a second, I change the station. He tries to couch them in a way that it’s a moral argument , but it is so transparent that he dislikes Francis because Pope Francis says things contrary to this host’s narrow political ideologies.

 

[Joe_5859]

Not everybody gets approved for annulment also. Again, no blood of Jesus here also.

I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, particularly considering your own family’s situation, but I would encourage you not to be dismissive. No one is arguing that Jesus’ blood is incapable of washing away the sin of remarriage after divorce. Setting up a strawman isn’t going to move the conversation forward. And this is an important conversation to have.

 

[AdamP88]

So basically any other sin can be fully forgiven like, murder, commit homosexual sin, rape, steal, do drugs, fornication etc, but if I break the marriage vow, I can NEVER be forgiven, and never remarry.

I never knew Jesus blood could not fully cleanse all sins. This is new theology to me.

No. You’re not really listening. Of course you can be forgiven the sin. But if you refuse to amend your life to be in accordance with the Gospel then confession is pointless because it lacks the purpose of amendment.

You’re viewing this entirely in terms of how bad it is that you can’t remarry. But people who marry in the Church, especially nowadays, are told in clear terms what it is that they are entering into. If they leave the person they have validly married, then they can’t remarry. Period.
Do you not believe in the sin of adultery?

If I go out and steal money, and then plan to steal more money and go to confession to confess my original sin of theft, that sin would not be forgiven because I lack the purpose of amendment.
Confession is not magic, Christ demands a change from us, and that can be hard sometimes.

 

[deMontfort]

EvangelistVictor:

So basically any other sin can be fully forgiven like, murder, commit homosexual sin, rape, steal, do drugs, fornication etc, but if I break the marriage vow, I can NEVER be forgiven, and never remarry.

I never knew Jesus blood could not fully cleanse all sins. This is new theology to me.

No. You’re not really listening. Of course you can be forgiven the sin. But if you refuse to amend your life to be in accordance with the Gospel then confession is pointless because it lacks the purpose of amendment.

You’re viewing this entirely in terms of how bad it is that you can’t remarry. But people who marry in the Church, especially nowadays, are told in clear terms what it is that they are entering into. If they leave the person they have validly married, then they can’t remarry. Period.
Do you not believe in the sin of adultery?

If I go out and steal money, and then plan to steal more money and go to confession to confess my original sin of theft, that sin would not be forgiven because I lack the purpose of amendment.
Confession is not magic, Christ demands a change from us, and that can be hard sometimes.

It’s also displaying a Protestant conception of forgiveness of sins that is NOT compatible with Catholic sacramental forgiveness.

 

[Annie]

I feel for you, because the same happened in my family.

The reason your father could not receive the Eucharist is that true repentance for din must include amendment. If a man who is having an affair goes to Confession and says, I have a mistress and I plan to continue our affair, how sorry is he for what he has done? Only sorry enough to confess is not enough. One must be sorry enough to stop.

This is why people in second marriages cannot receive the Eucharist unless they plan to stop having sex. Sure, they may slip up from time to time, and then as with all mortal sins they must refrain from receiving until they have gone to Confession.

As to the concerns many have for abandoned spouses, that is certainly a cross.

But is it any more a cross than that of a woman whom I knew whose alcoholic husband wrecked his car and damaged his brain? She stayed with him and cared for him and he was not able in any way to act as a husband, not even conversationally.

Bad things do happen to people, but that doesn’t justify any method to alleviate the pain.