attn anyone who doesnt believe in praying to saints, angels or mary

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Incomplete said:
This is incorrect. In fact, some pretty big sinners are now considered saints.

Canonized saints are people who have died and the Church recognizes are now in heaven, though anybody there is a saint. Usually when people refer to saints within the Catholic church, that’s what they’re referring to.
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So we should have saints and Saints 👍 that would clear things up. It drove my Mexican friends crazy when I told them I am a saint!
 
MyRdmrLvs said:
So St Paul was addressing his letters to dead people?!?
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No, but one word can have many different meanings. A “saint” can be anyone who believes OR someone who has died and gone to heaven. You might be a saint in the first definition, but certainly not the second - am I right? 😉
 
hamba2han said:
Since the topic is “attn anyone who doesnt believe in praying to saints, angels or mary”, I suppose “anyone” would include Muslims as well.

And so, I just would like to suggest that Christians ask themselves this question → Did the disciples use Jesus as a mediator when they themselves prayed to the Lord?

If the disciples themselves prayed directly to the Lord and NEVER did such a thing as using Jesus as a mediator (and who in his right mind would not want Jesus to mediate for him when he prays IF indeed such a practice of mediating in worship is accepted by God Almighty??), then why should you do this when you yourselves pray to the Lord?
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Jesus and the Father are One, Jesus Is the Fathers way to allow us to come directly to Him.
 
Bob_Crowley said:
You’ve forgotten the parable of the talents. We usually emphasise the fact the lazy servant was punished because he didn’t use the talents he had. But Protestants never seem to mention the fact that the good servants are given MORE talents. In other words, after death, when they’ve been judged, the good servants are given more talents.

This includes the power of intercession with God in a more effective manner and other supernatural duties.

Otherwise what the heck is the use of giving the saints talents?
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This is an interesting take on the point of the parable. I dont think Protestants miss the point that the good servant was given more, that is as much the point as the punishment of the unfaithful servant.
 
JerryS said:
The key question is whether she would ever ask YOU to pray for her (or welcome your prayers on her behalf). We pray for others all the time. We ask others to pray for us. And if your prayers are welcome, how much more welcome would be the prayers of the saints in heaven?

The key difference in my experience is that Catholics have a more distinct idea of life after death and the communion of the saints. Non-catholic Christians don’t usually think of the dead as living and accessible and available to intercede for them. Once that’s understood, there’s no reason to exclude asking saints to pray for you just as you would ask a pastor or fellow parishioner to pray for you.
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I think the problem, for me, is this idea that a prayer from a sinner might not have as much…punch…as a prayer from a saint, so that is better to go through the saint, so that God will listen.

I understand the concept, but…here’s the thing; those who pray to saints or to Mary INSTEAD of praying to God are missing a rather big point; when you ask your friends to pray for you, you are asking them to pray WITH you…multiplying the prayers and multiplying the faith. You don’t stop praying yourself, do you?

But if you spend all your prayer time importuning the Saints and Mary, it’s like going around to your friends and asking them to pray for you–INSTEAD of praying for yourself. I think your Heavenly Father would like to hear from you, personally.

To use the analogy of the receptionist…it’s like asking the receptionist to not only get you an appointment, but to stand between you and the doctor for the entire appointment.

I don’t believe in praying to the Saints, or to Mary. I understand why others do, though–and I understand the reasoning behind it. I just think it would be a good idea to spend at least as much time approaching God the Father oneself as is spent to plead for others to do so on one’s behalf.
 
osddso said:
my dads marrying a born again.

she says she doesnt pray to angels, saints, the Holy Mother Mary. she doesnt pray to them or go to confession because she doesnt need a mediator when speaking to God.

she gave me this example that her pastor gave her:**
“when i am sick, i want to speak to the doctor not the receptionist”**
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JL: Ask her, well then what are these heavenly receptionist doing presenting the prayers of the saint to the Great Physician?

[RV 5:8…the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb HAVING EVERY ONE OF THEM harps and golden vials full of odours which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS.]

The four beasts=angels, twenty-four elders are the 12 Patriarchs and 12 Apostles who ware crowns, only saints are given crowns in heaven. They are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth interceding, through Christ the Lamb=mediator. Harps adding to the prayers of the saints a pleasing sound unto the Lord, just as David played the harp to soothe Saul.

[Rv 8:3… another angel…stood at the altar with a golden censer…he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne 4…the smoke of the incense rose WITH the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS FROM THE HAND OF THE ANGEL before God.]

From the hand of the angel the prayers of the saints on earth are offered up to God (interceeding), those prayers are not going directly to God, but thru the hand of an angel thru Christ to the Father. The angel adds to the prayers of the saints (incense) to make them more pleasing to God. We are the body of Christ and Christ is the Head. We are all joined to that vine=Christ, with the sap=Holy Spirit going through all, those passed on and those on earth. Otherwise how could Saul (Paul) have been persecuting Jesus in heaven, while Saul was on earth persecuting the people of God on earth, Act22:4-8, we are all one body.

[Rm 12:4 For as we have MANY MEMBERS IN ONE BODY, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, ARE ONE BODY IN CHRIST, and every one MEMBERS ONE OF ANOTHER. Eph 3:14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom HIS WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives its name.] The living on earth and the souls of those passed over, are the whole family of God. One body, the living body of Christ, on earth and in heaven the whole assembly of God’s people the Church, members one of another.

[Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That **in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.] If little children’s angels can’t pray for them what is the use?

HB 12:1 …WE also ARE COMPASSED ABOUT WITH SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES let us LAY ASIDE EVERY WEIGHT… Compassed about by a great cloud of witnesses.

I have heard Billy Graham and other Protestants along with Protestant bible commentaries, describe the cloud of witnesses, as if the heavenly saints are looking down on a stadium field viewing the saints on earth. Why would they not pray for us? In heaven will you not ask Christ to help a loved one you see in need? We can lay aside every weight as we have many in heaven interceding=praying for us.

Lk15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy **in the presence of the angels **of God over one sinner that repenteth. [Saints in heaven know when a sinner repents and rejoice in the presence of angels. If they know when one repents, why can they not hear the saint on earth? We are a people not just lone individuals, it is not Jesus and me, but Jesus and us the entire body of Christ through which the Spirit flows and by that body we all receive the grace to persevere. Would a soul in heaven seeing a loved one hurting not pray for them but only watch?

Mt 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross. Why would people in Christ’s time think Elijah could hear him?

1 COR 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body but that the members should have the same care one for another.

HB 12:22 But **ye are come unto mount Sion and **unto the city of the living God **the **heavenly Jerusalem **and **to **an innumerable company of **angels **23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written in heaven and **to God **the Judge of all and to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel Assembly and church of the firstborn=those on earth who’s names are written in the book of life. The spirits of just men made perfect=the souls of saints in heaven to whom one may come. How do we come to Christ and angels and spirits of just men made perfect?
 
osddso said:
a saint is someone who lived sin free and dedicated their life to the Lord.

satan has faith in God, he belives in him. he puts his confidence in him, because satan knows God can and will one day destroy him…is he going to heaven?
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I replied to this with Post #22, but I realize now that my response was not entirely correct and I would like to clarify:

It’s not true that every person who ever lived (with the exception of Mary and Jesus) has sinned. Holy Innocents (those born before birth and/or those who have not reached the age of reason) do not sin. How can they when they don’t even know what sin is?

I apologize for not including this.

I also would like to reply to the statement about Satan. Yes, he believes in God, but he chose to go to hell. As human beings who have been give free will as a gift from a loving God, we also can choose to go to hell and people actually do so. We can also choose to go to Heaven to be with God.

Satan chose go to hell. He made it clear by his actions. He did not want to be with God and God accepted his choice.

I choose to go to Heaven to be with God.
 
On earth were are told to pray for each other. No where in scripture are we told to petition anyone other than Jesus in heaven. No one.
 
dianaiad said:
I think the problem, for me, is this idea that a prayer from a sinner might not have as much…punch…as a prayer from a saint, so that is better to go through the saint, so that God will listen.

I understand the concept, but…here’s the thing; those who pray to saints or to Mary INSTEAD of praying to God are missing a rather big point; when you ask your friends to pray for you, you are asking them to pray WITH you…multiplying the prayers and multiplying the faith. You don’t stop praying yourself, do you?

But if you spend all your prayer time importuning the Saints and Mary, it’s like going around to your friends and asking them to pray for you–INSTEAD of praying for yourself. I think your Heavenly Father would like to hear from you, personally.

To use the analogy of the receptionist…it’s like asking the receptionist to not only get you an appointment, but to stand between you and the doctor for the entire appointment.

I don’t believe in praying to the Saints, or to Mary. I understand why others do, though–and I understand the reasoning behind it. I just think it would be a good idea to spend at least as much time approaching God the Father oneself as is spent to plead for others to do so on one’s behalf.
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As far as a saint having more “punch”, James 5:16 talks about the prayer of a righteous man having great power in its effects. You might argue that you are just as righteous as those in heaven, and you might even be right. Yet you will ask your fellow “righteous” friends, saints on earth, to pray for and with you, so why not those in heaven? They are certainly no less righteous.

And for those who pray to saints instead of God, all I can say is I’ve never met anybody like that. The saints point us to God. The people I know who pay attention to saints use their examples to grow closer to God. If there is anybody who actually prays to saints bug ignore God, know that they are not practicing what Catholicism teaches. In fact, nowhere does the Church teach it is *necessary *to pray to saints.
 
adstrinity said:
Alright, but, this isn’t even about prayers per se. This is just about those in Heaven being aware of what is happening on Earth.

I’ll conceed that you cannot pray to one of the Three without praying to all Three, but, do you specifically pray directly to the Son or the Holy Spirit?
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I almost said I only pray to the father, but after thinking about it I have at time prayed prayers of gratitude to the Son. Interesting, when asking, I ask God, when thanking, I thank Jesus. I really do think of them as one and the same. Funny I hadnt realized I was doing that.
 
roratecaeli said:
No, but one word can have many different meanings. A “saint” can be anyone who believes OR someone who has died and gone to heaven. You might be a saint in the first definition, but certainly not the second - am I right? 😉
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You are correct:thumbsup:
 
jericho777 said:
On earth were are told to pray for each other. No where in scripture are we told to petition anyone other than Jesus in heaven. No one.
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There is plenty of support for praying to saints. I’ve only glanced through ths thread, but I’m guessing some of the verses quoted support it. It is not commanded, though, and neither does the Church command it.

However, as you might have already read on this thread, we view this as no different from asking your friends on earth to pray for you. The saints in heaven as well as those on earth are all part of the body of Christ and can all pray for/with each other.
 
dianaiad said:
I
But if you spend all your prayer time importuning the Saints and Mary, it’s like going around to your friends and asking them to pray for you–INSTEAD of praying for yourself. I think your Heavenly Father would like to hear from you, personally.

I don’t believe in praying to the Saints, or to Mary. I understand why others do, though–and I understand the reasoning behind it. I just think it would be a good idea to spend at least as much time approaching God the Father oneself as is spent to plead for others to do so on one’s behalf.
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We have arrived at very much the same conclusion. I have been told that the large majority of a Catholics prayers are in fact directed to the Father.
 
jericho777 said:
On earth were are told to pray for each other. No where in scripture are we told to petition anyone other than Jesus in heaven. No one.
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You’re correct about this, and that is why the Lutheran Confessions challenged the requirement to believe that we could. However, considering the fact that invocation has been practiced in both east and west long before the schism, where does scripture say people can’t ask those in Heaven to pray for them?

Jon
 
jericho777 said:
On earth were are told to pray for each other. No where in scripture are we told to petition anyone other than Jesus in heaven. No one.
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No where in Scripture is the Trinity taught-do you reject that also OR do you accept this doctrine developed from Scripture, Tradition and the Teachings of the Magestrium?
 
jericho777 said:
On earth were are told to pray for each other. No where in scripture are we told to petition anyone other than Jesus in heaven. No one.
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Where in the Bible does it state that we are not to pray to and/or petition anyone “other than Jesus in heaven?”

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

[SIGN]I Luv My Border Collie![/SIGN]
 
MyRdmrLvs said:
This is an interesting take on the point of the parable. I dont think Protestants miss the point that the good servant was given more, that is as much the point as the punishment of the unfaithful servant.
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And amongst those talents would be the power of intercession with God, or if you like, a delegation of authority in heaven, just as for now He gives delegation of authority within His church even on earth. Does your pastor have authority in your church?

If so, where did he get it from?

Same thing, but at a higher level. In the end all the prayers are answered by God, but He takes a bit more notice when they’ve come through what might be called approved channels. He wants a cooperative effort, but so many Protestants don’t seem to want that to happen.
 
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