Australians Say ‘Yes’ to Same-Sex Marriage, Clearing Path for Legalization

[Jig_Saw]

Your statements were made as though they were established statistical fact, rather than merely your opinion. I claim to have no other basis for my views than personal opinion, and I see you now concede the same regarding your own.

I’m not conceding as I never made a statement that what I said was anything more than opinions. You are choosing to read into my statements something that I did not present.

Evidently, you see a hate-filled society now and an overwhelmingly hate-filled society 20 years ago. I look at myself, my friends, my family - opinions are diverse, but of those (incl me) who would oppose SSM, we feel no hate - but hold to the view that marriage is evidently appropriate solely for man+woman. IMO, that is a more common circumstance than “hatred” of others.

Presumably, this isn’t new, so you would have held similar views twenty years ago. What I am interested in is those whose views have changed. I made my suggestion. Let’s see what you have to say.

Why are many more sympathetic to the desires of some for SSM now than in the past. I can only guess:

1. many popular celebrities have made their situation public and have influenced opinions;
2. popular media have promoted TV programs featuring homosexual relationships (typically light-hearted comedies), just as has been the case with “normalisation” of sexual relations during dating in the media, which is also far more accepted these days than in the past - and curiously, I don’t recall a change in hatred levels toward the young being cited to explain that;
3. the general weakening of marriage as a “special” institution;
4. there is a general sociological trend to favour individual freedoms and a dread of being labelled “discriminatory”, even for just cause;
5. the general lessening of religious commitment, noting in many cases, moral principles are often developed or learned from a religious source;

You may see explicit or latent “hate” in the majority of those who think SSM is a mistake. I see it in a very small minority.

I numbered your points as the bullets didn’t copy over. It will make it easier to comment on them.

1. & 2) are shifts due to lessening hatred towards homosexuals. You couldn’t have had 2) twenty years ago. Remember Ellen coming out on her show was a big thing. They kind of back up my view.

I have doubts on 3) having an impact because marriage has been weakening as an institution long before the recent attitudes towards SSM have changed.

1. is the most interesting of your points. There is larger stress on individual freedoms in America. Of course, everyone argues about what that means and it is usually just made to support one’s particular point of view. Would it cause changes in attitude towards SSM. Maybe. This is your most compelling argument.

For 5), I would again argue this has been going on for a very long time.

.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I disagree. The battle is not over. On National Review there is an article by Ryan T Anderson and he wrote something about the long term view regarding marriage and I think learning from what happened with the pro-life movement in America from the 1970s to the 2010s can provide hope for the battle over marriage:

Whatever happens, it is essential to take the long view, and to be ready to bear witness to the truth even if law and culture grow increasingly hostile. There are lessons to be learned from the pro-life movement. Consider the pro-life movement in February 1973, just weeks after Roe v. Wade. Public opinion was against them, by a margin of two to one. With each passing day another pro-life public figure — Ted Kennedy, Jesse Jackson, Al Gore, Bill Clinton — evolved to embrace abortion on demand. The media kept insisting that all the young people were for abortion rights. Elites ridiculed pro-lifers as being on the wrong side of history. The pro-lifers were aging; their children, increasingly against them. But courageous pro-lifers put their hand to the plow, and today we reap the fruits. My generation is more pro-life than my parents’ generation. A majority of Americans identify as pro-life, more today than at any other point. More state laws have been enacted protecting unborn babies in the past decade than in the previous 30 years combined. What happened? Academics wrote the books and articles making the scientific and philosophical case for life. Statesmen like Henry Hyde, Ed Meese, and Ronald Reagan crafted the policy and used the bully pulpit to advance the culture of life. Activists and lawyers got together, formed coalitions, and devised effective strategies. They faithfully bore witness to the truth. And the Christian community woke up — the Southern Baptists at the time, we sometimes forget, were in favor of abortion rights and supported Roe. Today they are at the forefront of the cause for life. This should caution us not to write off those who today might be on the wrong side of the marriage debate. Everything the pro-life movement did needs to happen again, but on this new frontier of marriage.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/378538/marriage-where-do-we-go-here-ryan-t-anderson

 

[Rau]

1 & 2) are shifts due to lessening hatred towards homosexuals.

This presumes the great majority of those opposing same sex sexual relationships hated the people involved. I disagree.

I’m inclined to suspect that pushing the idea that to oppose SSM (same sex sexual relations in general) is equivalent to (or born of) hating those involved is a technique to argue that those opposing are simply haters. [As I said earlier, it’s a kind of hate speech.]

You and I perhaps see human nature and reasoning in different ways.

 

[josh987654321]

The younger generation is the first where homosexuals aren’t demonized.

Not true. Homosexuals should never be demonized, sodomy should though, anyone with half a brain knows it’s not supposed to go there.

If your looking for something to blame, it’s the sexual sins that are on the rise in the west, a fornicator, adulterer etc are not likely to object to sodomy, and when heterosexuals themselves are committing sodomy with women, well…

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

 

[Link]

Good for Australia. I’ve been with my husband for 12 years. We legally married here in Texas in 2015 a few months after Obergefell. We didn’t force anyone to do anything and our marriage has effected precisely zero people outside of our home.

 

[Jig_Saw]

This presumes the great majority of those opposing same sex sexual relationships hated the people involved. I disagree.

I’m inclined to suspect that pushing the idea that to oppose SSM (same sex sexual relations in general) is equivalent to (or born of) hating those involved is a technique to argue that those opposing are simply haters. [As I said earlier, it’s a kind of hate speech.]

You and I perhaps see human nature and reasoning in different ways.

Yes, apparently we do. You have somehow decided that my point of view is the equivalent of hate speech and I consider it a simple observation.

 

[niceatheist]

Jig_Saw:

Young people aren’t exposed to ideas that gays are these horrible people

Besides the fact I struggle with SSA. How does one get the idea that “gays” are horrible?

They could start by reading a good many posts here.

 

[niceatheist]

If your looking for something to blame, it’s the sexual sins that are on the rise in the west, a fornicator, adulterer etc are not likely to object to sodomy, and when heterosexuals themselves are committing sodomy with women, well…

Apart from whether some of these are sins or not, do you have some evidence they’re on the rise?

 

[josh987654321]

You have somehow decided that my point of view is the equivalent of hate speech and I consider it a simple observation.

To say SSM is because homosexuals aren’t apparently ‘demonized’ is wrong. There has been a desensitization which makes you partly right, but it’s not in regards to homosexuals, it’s in regards to homosexuality, in regards to the act of sodomy and indeed other sexual sins like promiscuity.

God Bless

Thank you for reading.

 

[josh987654321]

Apart from whether some of these are sins or not, do you have some evidence they’re on the rise?

Yes, the normalization of this stuff in movies etc, a so called ‘comedy’ was on TV not long ago ‘We’re the Millar’s’ (Do not watch it) and I could not sit through it, it was so, so vulgar and sodomy was regularly referred to in order to make light of it and desensitize and normalize it even among heterosexuals.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Thank you for reading.

 

[josh987654321]

They could start by reading a good many posts here.

Like mine?

(16 Characters)

 

[Jig_Saw]

To say SSM is because homosexuals aren’t apparently ‘demonized’ is wrong. There has been a desensitization which makes you partly right, but it’s not in regards to homosexuals, it’s in regards to homosexuality, in regards to the act of sodomy and indeed other sexual sins like promiscuity.

No, I’m saying that support of SSM is because homosexuals aren’t demonized anymore. This applies similarly to heterosexual sins like sex outside of marriage as well (we don’t demonize women who get pregnant outside of marriage either anymore).

 

[josh987654321]

No, I’m saying that support of SSM is because homosexuals aren’t demonized anymore.

SSM is a bad thing, if homosexuals trying to live a chaste life are demonized then that is also a bad thing. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

God Bless

Thank you for reading.

 

[Jig_Saw]

SSM is a bad thing, if homosexuals trying to live a chaste life are demonized then that is also a bad thing. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

But two wrongs making a right is what SSM opponents have needed to keep majority support for their position.

 

[theCardinalbird]

But two wrongs making a right is what SSM opponents have needed to keep majority support for their position.

While the innocent are ostracised and depressed? Pardon my bias but why should the innocent suffer to keep SSM in check?

Please note: I don’t accept sodomy

 

[Link]

As someone who is an actual, living and breathing homosexual who also happens to be married and who also happens to be raising a teenager, i disagree. My marriage is not a “bad thing”. It’s actually one of the things I’m most proud of. I’ve watched a parent, two brothers and a sister go through a combined total of 7 marriages in the last 12 years. In that same time frame, I’ve been with my husband in a monogamous relationship. We have by far the healthiest, most steady relationship in both our families.

Call it anecdotal, but that’s the truth. And it’s not all that rare, and it’ll probably become even more common, especially now that closeted kids can grow up knowing their country isn’t going to limit their rights because they happen to be homosexual. I wonder how differently my adolescence would’ve been if I’d known there was nothing stopping me from having a family of my own?

 

[Jig_Saw]

While the innocent are ostracised and depressed? Pardon my bias but why should the innocent suffer to keep SSM in check?

Please note: I don’t accept sodomy

My point isn’t one that is commenting on whether a view is right or wrong, it is an observation of human nature (albeit one that Rau disagrees with).

 

[Rau]

As someone who is an actual, living and breathing homosexual who also happens to be married and who also happens to be raising a teenager, i disagree. My marriage is not a “bad thing”. It’s actually one of the things I’m most proud of

The difficulty for many is how the ‘leap’ is made from a committed relationship of mutual care and support to one that adds a sexual relationship (which marriage does) when the two persons are of the same sex.

 

[josh987654321]

As someone who is an actual, living and breathing homosexual who also happens to be married

Do you believe in God?

and who also happens to be raising a teenager

What happened to their parent(s)?

I’ve watched a parent, two brothers and a sister go through a combined total of 7 marriages in the last 12 years.

As a Catholic I believe in the indissolubility of marriage, I’m sure even the protestants frown upon that even though they open the door to it.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

I’ve been with my husband in a monogamous relationship.

If gender doesn’t matter, then neither does monogamy.

especially now that closeted kids can grow up knowing their country isn’t going to limit their rights because they happen to be homosexual.

What rights are those? to found and form a family? sorry but two men or two women can’t have kids, they can only use a 3rd person (surrogate mother or father) to have a half biological child and then intentionally deprive that child of their mother or father.

I wonder how differently my adolescence would’ve been if I’d known there was nothing stopping me from having a family of my own?

Laws don’t change biology.

Thank you for reading.

 

[josh987654321]

But two wrongs making a right is what SSM opponents have needed to keep majority support for their position.

But we are better then that.

God Bless

Thank you for reading.