Austrian bishops barred from Jewish holy site in Jerusalem for wearing crosses

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Valke2 said:
Look. If you were a guest at my synagouge, I would expect you to wear a head covering and I would expect that you would not display a cross during services.

As for the 13 bishops, it seems to me that had they been given advance notice, they would have complied and not appeared at the wall with crosses displayed.
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Then why did they let John Paul II display his cross there?
 
Valke2 said:
How do you constantly avoid being banned?
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Oh sorry Valke, let me rephrase my statement:

“Judaism is the holiest religion ever, much moreso than mine. I am so worthless when compared to almighty Valke. Valke is the holiest person on this message board. I have no right to criticize Judaism, even though it rejects my messaih and my beliefs. No Jew has ever committed a sin. Israel is Gods temple on earth, and is blameless in all aspects. There should be no mangers in public. We should never try and convert a Jew. I am worthless.”

Do you and the ADL approve now?😛
 
RomanCrusader said:
Oh sorry Valke, let me rephrase my statement:

“Judaism is the holiest religion ever, much moreso than mine. I am so worthless when compared to almighty Valke. Valke is the holiest person on this message board. I have no right to criticize Judaism, even though it rejects my messaih and my beliefs. No Jew has ever committed a sin. Israel is Gods temple on earth, and is blameless in all aspects. There should be no mangers in public. We should never try and convert a Jew. I am worthless.”

Do you and the ADL approve now?😛
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Calm down. :rolleyes:
 
I would think that they were orthodox bishops with a plain cross.

Maybe it was the size of the crosses that was upsetting.
D.
 
bones_IV said:
Then why did they let John Paul II display his cross there?
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Who knows? There’s a balance between politness and international incidents. Not everything is black and white. Look, if the Pope came to my house for shabbat dinner, I wouldn’t ask him to put away his cross. But if you stopped by wearing that bling, I’d be a little put out.
 
RomanCrusader said:
Oh sorry Valke, let me rephrase my statement:

“Judaism is the holiest religion ever, much moreso than mine. I am so worthless when compared to almighty Valke. Valke is the holiest person on this message board. I have no right to criticize Judaism, even though it rejects my messaih and my beliefs. No Jew has ever committed a sin. Israel is Gods temple on earth, and is blameless in all aspects. There should be no mangers in public. We should never try and convert a Jew. I am worthless.”

Do you and the ADL approve now?😛
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Keep working at it.
 
Valke2 said:
Who knows? There’s a balance between politness and international incidents. Not everything is black and white. Look, if the Pope came to my house for shabbat dinner, I wouldn’t ask him to put away his cross. But if you stopped by wearing that bling, I’d be a little put out.
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By that logic I should demand that a Jew shave his sidelocks and throw away his yamaka if he needs to enter my house.
 
You should also know that one of the main obligations of the rabbi there is to prevent rioting. He also takes steps to make sure jewish groups don’t go to the Temple Mount (where the arabs are) to pray. His actions are political, not religious.
 
Valke2 said:
You should also know that one of the main obligations of the rabbi there is to prevent rioting. He also takes steps to make sure jewish groups don’t go to the Temple Mount (where the arabs are) to pray. His actions are political, not religious.
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“…rioting…”? “…prevent Jewish groups from RIOTING?” Are you saying that the cross brings out hatred enough to “riot?”

That speaks volumes !!!
 
johnstown_johnn said:
“…rioting…”? “…prevent Jewish groups from RIOTING?” Are you saying that the cross brings out hatred enough to “riot?”

That speaks volumes !!!
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You have to understand that many Jews see the cross as a sign of 2,000 years of murder and persecution. I was referring to certain orthodox groups of jews who appear there regularly to demand access to the Temple Mount. THeir actions could easily trigger rioting. Perhaps, however, I should have said his obligation is to keep the peace. The wall is a place of prayer for Jews, more so then a synagouge. We would view a public display of the cross with anger or at least discomfiture, if it were worn in synagouge.

Having said that, I think the Rabbi handled this poorly and that the bishops, from what I’ve read, handled it well. The bishops should have been told beforehand that this would be an issue and not put on the spot to make a decision as to whether to conceal their crosses.
 
The Wall is one of the places that draws tourism and enrichens the City of Jerusalem monetarily. Why then does the officials/rabbis “welcome” the tourist money and, at the same time, insult the tourists?

If some Jews, as you say, see the Cross as a negative symbol, why are Christians allowed to approach the Wall? If the Wall is a place of Jewish “devotion” and is a “holy site” then even if the crosses were tucked into the Christians garments…the Cross is STILL there at the Wall…eventhough it is not visible,so wouldn’t that offend the Jews’ spiritual “Entity” just the same?

Much of this, IMO, is “grandstanding” because relations with the Vatican are strained. Perhaps the solution would be for the entire Christian world to cease coming to that place.

As far as Catholics are concerned the Wall is secondary since we receive Jesus personally at the Mass. He abides in us while the Communion bread (His Body) is present within.

As far as the resentment/rioting the mere negativity towards the Cross is nit historical at all…it is CURRENT. Why was Crosses allowed as recently as a few years ago and not now? And PLEASE don’t tell us that is was “diplomacy” to allow the Pope to wear his cross on his visit. I was part of a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and it was a Catholic Tour Group…NO ONEwearing a cross outwardly was confronted.

This refutes the notion of the recent confrontation as being “historical” and goes back centuries; that is disingenuous.

All this is NEW and very, very revealing to Christians. Adversity towards the Cross is adversity towards us. Why was Pope John Paul allowed in Israel if he was an advocate of Jerusalem being an Open City? Christians have a stake in Jerusalem as well as Jews. American dollars, most of it from taxed Christian-Americans, are given to Israel…$3 billion (probably a lot more) per year to finance a failed economy and to support a Christian Oppression such as we saw at the Wall.

If the Cross offends a small number of Jews there as you say, then relations with Jews and Christians is compromised for a “minority” that has markings of being a cult.

The rabbis in Jerusalem never should have done that. That was an eyeopener.

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Praised be Jesus
 
Personally, I think the Rabbi behaved improperly. It is one thing to have a conversation before they arrive. Another to tell them they can’t pray. He should have erred on the side civility and not said anything.

I’m sure there are plenty of women who are reading this and laughing. As they are routinely turned away for “improper dress”
 
Valke2 said:
Personally, I think the Rabbi behaved improperly. It is one thing to have a conversation before they arrive. Another to tell them they can’t pray. He should have erred on the side civility and not said anything.

I’m sure there are plenty of women who are reading this and laughing. As they are routinely turned away for “improper dress”
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The rabbis overstepped their oversight and insulted the Catholic world. I suppose, if a Christian man visiting the Wall wearing a shortsleeve shirt on a hot summer day had a Cross tatooed on his forearm the rabbis would ban him?

I say this because, although it seems to be stretching it a bit, it is very, very telling on how much resentment and adversity there is towards the Cross.

I would be safe in imagining that if Judaism, such as exhibited by the rabbis in this topic, were to control governments worldwide we could expect persecution. And that demand to remove/obfuscate the Cross at the wall is indeed a form of PERSECUTION.

Sometimes we have to get “out of ourselves” to really make a connection…the rabbis here are totally disconnected and they display a unwillingness to assess another’s dignity… They were insulting heavy-handed. The Cross is NOT a Swastika, my friend…the rabbis there apparently are perceiving that it is.

The Cross means love and salvation for all eternity as shown by God’s Son, Jesus to ALL of us…the rabbis included.

Those rabbis never should have done that…it shows not only disrespect but intolerance and hostility as well. It also shows that SOME rabbis have NO WISDOM.

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Praise to You, Lord Jesus !
 
Valke2 said:
You should also know that one of the main obligations of the rabbi there is to prevent rioting. He also takes steps to make sure jewish groups don’t go to the Temple Mount (where the arabs are) to pray. His actions are political, not religious.
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Would you shout fire into a crowded theater?
 
Valke2 said:
You have to understand that many Jews see the cross as a sign of 2,000 years of murder and persecution. I was referring to certain orthodox groups of jews who appear there regularly to demand access to the Temple Mount. THeir actions could easily trigger rioting. Perhaps, however, I should have said his obligation is to keep the peace. The wall is a place of prayer for Jews, more so then a synagouge. We would view a public display of the cross with anger or at least discomfiture, if it were worn in synagouge.
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Fine then. I’ll use your logic Valke.

I see the yamaka as a symbol of hate. It was worn by those who have persecuted Christians many times. If a yamaka is worn in a Catholic Church it is a sign of grave disrespect.
 
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