Austrian bishops barred from Jewish holy site in Jerusalem for wearing crosses

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Valke2 said:
I have absolutely no idea what your last few posts are trying to convey.
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Neither did I. Which is why I asked would you shout fire into a crowded theater. You don’t legislate tolerance. Doesn’t work.
 
bones_IV said:
Neither did I. Which is why I asked would you shout fire into a crowded theater. You don’t legislate tolerance. Doesn’t work.
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Still don’tknow what you are trying to say. Who said anything about legislating tolerance?
 
bones_IV said:
That’s what the rabbi was doing by asking the bishops to not wear crosses to the Temple.
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HOw is that legislating. If a priest were to ask me to remove my kippah out of respect in Church, would that be legislation?
 
Valke2 said:
HOw is that legislating. If a priest were to ask me to remove my kippah out of respect in Church, would that be legislation?
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What I mean to say is that Christians have a right to wear their cross where ever they please.
 
Valke2 said:
You have to understand that many Jews see the cross as a sign of 2,000 years of murder and persecution.

The Early Christians were not “persecutors of Jews,” as you say because it was the Christians that were thrown to the lions and put to the sword in Rome for nearly 600 years. So, the math is down to not 2,000 years but 1400 years instead. (and still subtracting)

It wasn’t until Constantine that Christianity came out of hiding. Christians persecuted no Jews since THEY were the ones being persecuted. In those first 600 years Jews were NOT a people in persecution as such. Even when Rome ruled in the First Century, even before Christ, Jews were allowed Roman citizenship. St. Paul a latter-disciple of Christ had dual citizenship: Judaian and Roman both.

Sir Oliver Cromwell invvited the Jewish world into Britain by the hundreds of thousands. Britain, to this day, has a Jewish geneology that eclipses most other nations. Britain was a Christian nation. This removes a few more Centuries.

So, what happened to those “2,000 years” the good rabbis say is the reason for that outrageous display?

No, it’s not the Cross that upset them per se. it is He WHO is represented by the Cross. It clearly is hatred for the Son of God and it is not even disguised. Those that hate Jesus also hate us. Those rabbis never should have demanded removal of those crosses. This was blind hatred and we hope that one day those rabbis and others like them will accept and be grateful for the salvific Blood of the Redeemer. Do not forget, Jesus’ came to Redeem His own FIRST and we gentiles SECOND. But redemption is for all eternity and hopefully, we can ALL see God face-to-Face…Jews, Gentiles , Muslims, etc., etc.

I apologize for all those that hate you, Lord Jesus.
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johnstown_johnn said:
The Early Christians were not “persecutors of Jews,” as you say because it was the Christians that were thrown to the lions and put to the sword in Rome for nearly 600 years.
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You’re absolutely certain about those 600 years?
Jews were NOT a people in persecution as such.
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I think you might consult the estimates for the numbers of Jews killed between 66-135CE and compare with casualties to the lions.
Sir Oliver Cromwell
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Have you a reference for his knighthood?
invvited the Jewish world into Britain by the hundreds of thousands.
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Have you any specific source on those figures? There were only about 60,000 Jews in England by 1880.
Britain, to this day, has a Jewish geneology that eclipses most other nations.
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Well, since there’s been such a great explosion in the number of countries and many of them are pretty low on the number of Jews (not a lot in Botswana, for example) that’s, of course, the case, especially given that a large proportion of European Jewry were annihilated during the Reich. Would you say that this ‘genealogy’ eclipsed that of other European countries before that time? I’d love to see your sources for such an argument.
So, what happened to those “2,000 years” the good rabbis say is the reason for that outrageous display?
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It isn’t what good (or even the odd naughty) rabbis say - it’s called ‘European History’.
No, it’s not the Cross that upset them per se. it is He WHO is represented by the Cross. It clearly is hatred for the Son of God and it is not even disguised. Those that hate Jesus also hate us. Those rabbis never should have demanded removal of those crosses. This was blind hatred and we hope that one day those rabbis and others like them will accept and be grateful for the salvific Blood of the Redeemer. Do not forget, Jesus’ came to Redeem His own FIRST and we gentiles SECOND. But redemption is for all eternity and hopefully, we can ALL see God face-to-Face…Jews, Gentiles , Muslims, etc., etc.
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That’s all very nice, I’m sure, but what have the Austrian bishops said about the incident, I wonder?
 
The Roman Empire was a pagan entity. It was not until Constantine some 600 years later after Christ that Rome allowed open christian worship. So the Cross did not represent the Roman Empire since Rome persecuted christians for Centuries after Christ. The Colisseum is one of the remnants of christians being put to death. St. Peter was also crucified in Rome. The Early Church was an underground Church both figuratively and literally.

So the years you underscored were years during Pagan Rome.
 
johnstown_johnn said:
The Roman Empire was a pagan entity. It was not until Constantine some 600 years later after Christ that Rome allowed open christian worship. So the Cross did not represent the Roman Empire for Centuries after Christ.

So the years you underscored were years during Pagan Rome.
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Hey, you can’t complain about pagan Rome persecuting Christians while dismissing pagan Rome persecuting Jews.

Also, do check your dates.
 
The point is, it was NOT the Cross that was the symbol of persecution. Jews were allowed Roman citizenship as Jews. They did not need to cloak who they were but the Christians had to be nondescript. Even early christian signs did not dispaly the Cross since it would bring on persecution. Instead symbols like the “fish” was a vicarious sign to other christians unbeknownst to the Romans.
 
johnstown_johnn said:
The point is, it was NOT the Cross that was the symbol of persecution. Jews were allowed Roman citizenship as Jews. They did not need to cloak who they were but the Christians had to be nondescript. Even early christian signs did not dispaly the Cross since it would bring on persecution. Instead symbols like the “fish” was a vicarious sign to other christians unbeknownst to the Romans.
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Hey, I think you’re probably right in that Christians had it worse from 135CE until Constantine in the early 300’s. For 165 years in European history (after the catastrophe of the period ending in 135CE), Christians had it worse than Jews in the Roman Empire. Congratulations.
 
johnstown_johnn said:
The point is, it was NOT the Cross that was the symbol of persecution.
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Well, you see, that’s really a matter for the persecuted, isn’t it? For, by far, most of European history, from time to time (but in some places a lot of the time) enthusiastic cross wearers (who didn’t see it as a symbol of anything other than their attachment to their Savior, I’m sure) were pretty unpleasant to their Jewish neighbors (not all enthusiastic cross wearers were involved, but enthusiastic cross wearers they were, nevertheless). Over time, enthusiastic cross wearers gave enthusiastic cross-wearing something of a bad name amongst the Jewish community.

Me? I’m totally indifferent.

I’m still wondering what the Austrian bishops said.
 
These are the responses I get when I agree that the Rabbi acted improperly. I can only imagine what would be said if I dared to accuse the bishops of acting improperly.
 
As this is a Jewish Holy site, the Jews can require what they want from people…I’m sorry but any Catholic who is offended by this needs to look at the situation from a different light. Imagine if a Jewish man wanted to pray in the Holy Scheplechure (spl?) If we demanded he remove his Star of David and he refused, most of you would say he is anti-Christian.
 
Kaninchen said:
Hey, you can’t complain about pagan Rome persecuting Christians while dismissing pagan Rome persecuting Jews.

Also, do check your dates.
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Except for the fact that the Jews helped pagan Rome persecute Christians.
 
AdvanceAlways said:
As this is a Jewish Holy site, the Jews can require what they want from people…I’m sorry but any Catholic who is offended by this needs to look at the situation from a different light. Imagine if a Jewish man wanted to pray in the Holy Scheplechure (spl?) If we demanded he remove his Star of David and he refused, most of you would say he is anti-Christian.
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If you do decide to enter an order, I’d love to hear what is involved. I’ll pray that you are happy with your decision.
 
AdvanceAlways said:
As this is a Jewish Holy site, the Jews can require what they want from people…I’m sorry but any Catholic who is offended by this needs to look at the situation from a different light. Imagine if a Jewish man wanted to pray in the Holy Scheplechure (spl?) If we demanded he remove his Star of David and he refused, most of you would say he is anti-Christian.
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Comparing “apples to oranges.”
 
RomanCrusader said:
Except for the fact that the Jews helped pagan Rome persecute Christians.
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Thank you RC. I kept that thought within myself. Funny, that this thought will be attacked as anti-Semitic while the Cross is being insulted and being held up as something “evil.”

When St. Paul left the Holy Land to preach to the gentiles starting in Greece he was hounded by Temple assassins all the way to Rome.

St. Paul was a Roman citizen and therefore was not crucified as was St. Peter. Instead, St. Paul was beheaded–a form of execution for Roman citizens. There was much influence from the outside of Rome to persecute Christians.

There was a persecution of Christians very soon after Jesus’ Ascension into Heaven. The Acts of the Apostles mention how the Temple high priests sent spies into Damascus and Antioch to identify the christians so to persecute them.

In pagan Rome, Jews were NOT thrown into the Colisseum to be ravaged by wild animals or to be put to the sword or burned at the stake.

The Cross was NOT the symbol of the Early Church but instead it was the “sign of the fish.” This was used so christians would not be identified and put to death.

Even burial berths in the catacombs were marked with the “fish.” So that, for a pagan Roman passerby would not know it was a Christian buried in that berth. The “fish” was known only to Christians.

To say that Christians persecuted Jews under the sign of the Cross is a total falsehood and evil at its base. And this is a Catholic forum. There has to be some form repect shown by non-Catholic visitors…this is NOT a public/secular media propaganda outlet.

This Forum is to promote Christian ideals under the light of the Cross and must NOT be allowed to be insulted. To allow this is to invite persecution towards the Cross. This is supposed to be for non-believers to find Christ and NOT to insult Him.
 
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