Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

[JaKael02]

Lincs,

Is your family linage/history Protestant?

Just curious. I’m in Indiana but trace my linage to Switzerland.

Regards,

James

 

[Lincoln7]

I’ve heard that the top theologians in the world do not prefer to debate faith alone vs faith, hope, & charity because according to the best theologians in the world, the differences are largely semantics and not enough to create a Church schism.

Have others heard the same?

However, the real issue between Protestants and Catholics is the issue of authority, the centeral theme of this thread.

Probably why this thread is so popular. Thanks to our brother in Christ - Lincs.

-James

I understand where you are coming from. Obviously there is similarity to some extent between the CC and historic Protestant views on justification because we both stand in western Christianity. But the differences are in my view large enough, especially as I view justification as part of core of the gospel… I stand with the reformers on it. But yes authority does comprise a big part of the debate…

Lincs,

Is your family linage/history Protestant?

Just curious. I’m in Indiana but trace my linage to Switzerland.

Regards,

James

One part of it is Catholic a few generations back, the other is Protestant, which is the tradition I was raised in, but I have only been living for the Lord for around 2 years now.

Kind regards

Lincs.

 

[anthony022071]

Hi Anthony, hope you’re well.

Indeed we are called to be perfect, the position i hold however is that i will never by my own effort the perfect enough to merit eternal life, as such i must look to Christ alone and his work on my behalf for salvation.

You are detaching “efforts” from the moral commandments,which lead to salvation (Matthew 19,16-17). The fact is that our good works are meritorious for salvation,
because they are pleasing in the sight of God,and he requires us to obey his commandments,and scripture makes it clear that we will be judged according to our deeds. God will certainly save those who are pleasing to him because of their obedience. If your good works are done by the grace of the Spirit of Christ,then it is Christ working within you,as St. Paul said of himself. So there is no reason to act as if your obedience is useless for your salvation,or as if you have to deny their merit in order to avoid being proud of yourself. If you deny the merit of good works and obedience to God,then you denigrate what God wills.

i strive for this perfection as a result of Gods freely given justification. Indeed Gods law is Holy and good (Romans 7:7), but what does it do; it makes to me known what sin is (Rom 3:20, 7:7), i can’t perform the law perfectly, for i do not do the good i want, but the evil i do not want is what i keep on doing (Rom 7:18).

The effect of the law upon conscience and the reality of human weakness does not say anything about whether obedience to the moral commandments leads to salvation. You are only looking at the human side of the question. But the commandments are God’s will for us. To obey God is to draw near to him and to please him and thus to be going toward eternal life with him.

By works of the law, no one will be justified (Rom 3:28), works of the law cannot be limited purely to the ceremonial laws of the old covenant; “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, and do them.” (Galatians 3:10).

The works of the law that Paul means in the letter to the Romans are the ritual works,in particular circumcision. He was responding to the claim,made by some Jewish Christians,that it was necessary to be circumcised to be saved. The quote from the letter to the Galatians does not show that the moral commandments do not lead to salvation.

 

[Seus_Peus]

Anthony,

Can you briefly explain to me Paul’s purpose in writing Romans to the believers in Rome?

 

[Lincoln7]

Anthony,

You are detaching “efforts” from the moral commandments,which lead to salvation (Matthew 19,16-17). The fact is that our good works are meritorious for salvation,
because they are pleasing in the sight of God,and he requires us to obey his commandments,and scripture makes it clear that we will be judged according to our deeds. God will certainly save those who are pleasing to him because of their obedience. If your good works are done by the grace of the Spirit of Christ,then it is Christ working within you,as St. Paul said of himself. So there is no reason to act as if your obedience is useless for your salvation,or as if you have to deny their merit in order to avoid being proud of yourself. If you deny the merit of good works and obedience to God,then you denigrate what God wills.

If you mean that good works merit towards our justification, then most certainly we disagree here, for justification is solely the work of God, based on no merit on our part, and comes by faith alone:
“and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith” (Phillipians 3:9) “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10) Note Paul here; not of works, which works? Those that he references in verse 10; the “good works”… By works of the law none shall be justified (Rom 3:28). The term “merit” as Calvin demonstrates is a poor one; for even good works we do are a result of divine grace, as such we can claim no merit for them at all… Good works are pleasing to God, but are still stained with sin. As such we can take no pride in them, nor view them as part of the reason for our forgiveness. See Calvin here on merit: m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xvi.html

The works of the law that Paul means in the letter to the Romans are the ritual works,in particular circumcision. He was responding to the claim,made by some Jewish Christians,that it was necessary to be circumcised to be saved. The quote from the letter to the Galatians does not show that the moral commandments do not lead to salvation.

This part of your post is the most interesting to me, it sounds similar in many ways to New Perspectivism (not a derogatory term, descriptive one). Limiting works of the law solely to the ceremonial works of the old covenant does not stand up. The law which our Lord properly explained for us; "And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matt 22:37-39) That’s a high standard, one we can’t merit for ourselves. Rather we must look to Christ alone for forgiveness and acceptance before the Father. A treatment of “works of the law” is here: tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj16h.pdf If works of the law encapsulates human effort for salvation, which it most certainly does, “we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.” Gal 2:16

Lincs

 

[Lincoln7]

I forgot to add a quote… Seems I’ve been reading 1 Clement a bit the last few days as a result of this thread:

“And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen.” - 1 Clement 32:4

Sums up my position rather well.

Lincs

 

[GaryTaylor]

The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 "The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due… Our merits are God’s gifts.Augustine

Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. the saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace…CCC

“After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone… In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.” St Therese of Lisieux

Other numbered comments from Trent

What is the prayer “Our Father” which Pope Benedict explains in Jesus of Nazareth.

Also…

Our Father " O man did you not dare to raise to heaven, you lowered your eyes to the earth, and suddenly you have received the Grace of Christ: All of your sins have been forgiven. From being a wicked servant you have become a good son…then raise you eyes to the Father who has begotton you through Baptism, to the Father who has redeemed you throught the Son, and say: Our Father…BUT, do not claim any privilege. He is the Father in a special way only to Christ. He has created us. Then also say by His Grace, “Our Father”, so that you may Merit being a son." St Ambrose

“When we say Hallowed be thy name” we ask that it should be Hallowed in us, who are in Him, but also in others whom Gods Grace still awaits, that we may obey the precept that obliges us to pray for everyone, even our enemies. That is why we do-not say expressly “Hallowed be thy name in us” for we ask that it be in All men. Tertullian.

"Only a pure hear can say “The Kingdom Come”. One who has heard Paul say, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies,” and has purified himself in Action, Thought and Word will say to God: Thy Kingdom Come. St Cyril

Our Daily Bread? “The Eucharist is our daily Bread, Its effect is then understood as unity, so that, gathered into His body and made members of Him, we may become what we receive…The Father in Heaven urges us, as children of heaven Christ himself is the Bread sown in the Virgin Mary, raised in the Flesh, kneaded in the Passion, baked in the oven of the Tomb, reserved in the Churchs bought to the Alters, furnishes the faithful each day with Food from Heaven.” St Peter Chysologus

Forgive us our trespasses “as we” forgive those who trespass aginst us.

“God does nor accept the sacrifice of a sower in disunion, but commands that he depart from the alter so that he may first be reconciled with his brother. For God can be appeased only by prayers that make Peace. To God, the better offering is peace, brotherly concord, and a people made one in the unity of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit” St Cyprian.

Lead Us Not into Temptation

“God does not want to impose the good, but want free beings…there is a certain usefulness to Temptation. No one but God knows what Our Soul has received from Him, not even we ourselves, but in this way we discover our evil inclinations and are obliged to give Thanks for the Good whih Temptation has reveiled to us.” Origen

Today I often wonder how many Christians pray the “Our Father” let alone understand it. I was thinking about it last when I read Niceas other thread. I can’t get over how many never heard a Catholic Priest teach. .

Anyway…

How are we with the Primacy of Rome and the Deposit of Faith. A consistant till the 12th century hey? Till the 12th century we have “Communion” West/East and the Primacy is no doubt clearly established.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So then as we see above, two Great Mysteries of the Apostolic Church’s better know as “Orthodoxy” now think about St Mary “Our Lady” and how She fits correctly into the understanding of The Our Father?

Ah, but you begin to see all which is Divine again, all which is above human comprehension. Father could not be reality unless the Free Will of Marys fiat is in a pure realm of “Faith”. Unless Grace preceeded abundantly or “Full of Grace” meaning no sin yet subjected to humanity, thus Her path of suffering, and continued coorperation with Grace in Faith of the Lords Will. We may still be waiting on Christ!

However, we see that He in Jesus who introduces the Sonship and the Father in terminology by Gods will, first proceeded through Mary. So where do we submit Mary in this order of Grace? Well, I have to state I believe “Orthodoxy” has already done this and correctly at that. All Grace flows through Mary, because the Father so chose that all Grace flow through Mary in the Sonship established with His Son and mankind today.

Not to get off topic but when we talk the “elect” such as in Calvinism, where does Mary play in this role of the “elect”. How that work with Saints in Calvinism?

In this theory of Calvin and the elect, would we not have to conclude that Calvin “assuming his theory is correct” is a Great Saint? However this is not the reality in Gods Kingdom, and surely not the reality in Gods established Apostolic Churchs that are visable to us. In fact isn’t Calvin, well to be polite viewed with a critical eye, in all which need be “correctly” understood in the “Sonship” of the Lord?

The thinking of Divine Providence does not vary East to West in the Apostolic Churchs. In fact its well defined. The Honor of the Primacy is firmly established through Divine Providence, and is a fact of History for the first 12 hundred years. Of which no agrument has stood the test time correctly understanding up to the 12th.

Often we hear Saints… Augustine, Cyprian, John Chrysostem used to alienate the Primacy of Rome in specific wording “quotes” yet as we see when in-depth understanding of these Saints in ventured in all areas, there is no misunderstanding to the greater picture of Rome and Primacy. One does not become a Saint or a Doctor of the Apostolic Church because they misunderstood the Deposit of Faith. They become a Saint because of it and their desire in the Free-Will which all mankind has, to cooperate with it, and even build upon the Deposit of Faith in “definition”.

Rome can only define Doctrine in accord with Tradition, Holy Scripture and the Deposit of Faith. So then we too see this through the ecumenical councils, however in matters of Morals and Faith they do have the authority outside of a Ecumenical Council to define as they have, thus to send a Sounding Signal out to the Christian world, as they have done with “contraceptives” and “abortion”. They are the keepers of the Deposit of Faith, and there is No-Other. For everything the Lord spoke, He spoke all at once in Public Revelation, He had nothing further to say, thus it would be folly to entertain the personal revelation of a soul which contradicts the Deposit of Faith.

Divine Providence has Blessed us with signs along the way through time, with the Saints, who have contantly confirmed the Deposit of Faith and helped in its further understanding thus definition.

Who else can make this claim but the Apostolic Churchs thus “Orthodoxy”. History in reflection clearly indicates Rome is no different than it has always been. There has never been a need to interfer with the Apostolic Churchs, the need arise’s when they sit down in disagreement. Which they will once again. As we see in the Bible with the Council in Acts or Matthew. There has always been in existence this position in Rome, it is the Primacy. There is infallible teaching and always has been, for there is nothing new ever here, but an appeal to what already existed, which was, is, and always will be infallible. The infallible teaching is rooted in Divine Providence. One may agrue “well Rome never used the word infallible” till after the 12th. However under close scutiny we see this fact did exist.

One would have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt infallible doesn’t exist. As I see it this cannot be done as it has always existed. “The Gates of hell shall never prevail” is an infallible statement. One would have to through skeptical philosophy doubt the Kingdom of God. And so too, here all the evidence points otherwise. All Truth points back to the Apostolic Churchs and they all point back to Rome in Divine Providence from the begining, thus Communion. Communion didn’t exist as a fancy, it is what brings the Supernatural Blessing though cooperation with GOd specific, oulined, detailed plan for Salvation. It is what brought the Supernatural Blessing at the Cross…COMMUNION!

Peace

 

[JaKael02]

One part of it is Catholic a few generations back, the other is Protestant, which is the tradition I was raised in, but I have only been living for the Lord for around 2 years now.

Kind regards

Lincs.

Glad you came back to Christ. My time frame is similiar, I reverted back to Christ a little over 2 years ago as well. Life is much better that away.

 

[JaKael02]

Anthony,

Can you briefly explain to me Paul’s purpose in writing Romans to the believers in Rome?

Seus Peus,

Welcome! I noticed you are relatively new…like me… so I wanted to say hey.

God Bless,
James

 

[anthony022071]

Anthony,

If you mean that good works merit towards our justification, then most certainly we disagree here, for justification is solely the work of God, based on no merit on our part, and comes by faith alone:
“and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith” (Phillipians 3:9)

Again,Paul is referring to the ritual works of the law,because there was controversy about whether they were necessary for salvation. There was no controversy about whether moral works were necessary for salvation. Righteousness comes from faith insofar that obedience to Christ follows faith in him.

Phillippians 2:12-16

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10)

In that passage,Paul does not say or even suggest that good works are useless toward salvation. To say that salvation through faith is a gift of God and not a result of works does not mean that good works do not have merit before God. Salvation is both a gift and a reward.

Note Paul here; not of works, which works? Those that he references in verse 10; the “good works”… By works of the law none shall be justified (Rom 3:28).

Paul cannot have been referring to moral works,because earlier in the same letter he says,

Romans 2:6–7, “For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well–doing seek for glory and honor and immortality,to those who by patience in well–doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Anthony,

Again,Paul is referring to the ritual works of the law,because there was controversy about whether they were necessary for salvation. There was no controversy about whether moral works were necessary for salvation. Righteousness comes from faith insofar that obedience to Christ follows faith in him.

Limiting “works of the law” purely to ceremonial rites of the mosaic covenant does not hold water - files.wts.edu/uploads/pdf/publications/wtj/silva-fall-01.pdf Excellent article there by Moises Silva in The Westminister Theological Journal, on this… Plus I’m not saying works are unimportant in the life of a believer, far from it. Simply that they are not the basis of justification, for this is by faith alone.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

There is nothing in these verses that either contradicts or is a problem for reformed theology on justification.

In that passage,Paul does not say or even suggest that good works are useless toward salvation. To say that salvation through faith is a gift of God and not a result of works does not mean that good works do not have merit before God. Salvation is both a gift and a reward.

He quite plainly states that works are not what have saved us, but grace through faith. I’ve already said the Father is pleased with the works of his children, but have also said these works do not have anything to do with their finding forgiveness, as Paul clearly says in the passage from Ephesians. “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.” (Rom 4:2) Faith alone justifies, “so that no one may boast” (Eph 2:9).

Paul cannot have been referring to moral works,because earlier in the same letter he says,

Romans 2:6–7, “For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well–doing seek for glory and honor and immortality,to those who by patience in well–doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”

The quote is Ephesians not Romans. However again tis verse is not a difficulty for the way historic Protestants understand justification. See Calvin here: m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom38.vi.ii.html
Good works will be rewarded, but it is inference as Calvin states to assume that this proves the catholic idea of merit.

Lincs,

 

[GaryTaylor]

THE CENTRAL MOTIVATIONS BEHIND ANTI-CALVINISM AND CALVINISM

Anti-Calvinism

The central motivation behind anti-Calvinism, is two-fold:

Part A: the idea that to save someone ‘by force’, were an unloving act.

The problem with this idea is that it presupposes that which is causally discordant, namely, that one can in fact be forced to love God.

One can’t be forced to love anyone: not even God forced anyone to love Him, for love of its very substance precludes any possibility of its having been forced.

The anti-Calvinist then is simply attacking a straw Calvinist: no Calvinist believes God can force anyone to love Him, for no Calvinist believes that love can be forced.

Part B: the notion that it would be unfair of God to love only certain ones and not others.

But his idea here actually contradicts the idea of Part A, for here at Part B the basis of the argument is that love begets love (and that it would therefore be unfair of God to love only certain people, for then only they would ever be able to love Him back). That is, this contradicts the presupposition of Part A that one can in fact be forced to love God.

You can’t have it both ways: if you say that it would be wrong for God to force people to love Him, you can’t then also object to the notion that God loves only certain people: the first idea presupposes that one can indeed be forced to love someone, the second that love can only be begotten through love.

Calvinism

The most striking characteristic of any debate between Calvinists and anti-Calvinists, consists of an omission. Specifically, the anti-Calvinist never asks the Calvinist how his doctrine accords with his personal experience.

The central motivation behind the Calvinist is not, as the anti-Calvinist presumes, a smug eliteness which declares him to be one of the lucky ones who are elect of God, but his own personal experience which tells him that the relationship he now has with Jesus Christ, could never have even imaginably come about by way of any activity on his own part – that the nature of what he has entered into is so supernatural, so sublime, so at odds with even the very best the world has to offer (let alone the worst), that it were absurd to suggest that he himself somehow contributed to the equation.

Commensurate with such experientially-based doctrine, is his sense that he not even dare consider that he had anything to do with the current state of affairs – that any such consideration were in contempt of the court of a very fearful God indeed – that it were the height of ingratitude and disrespect – that it were to tread the grace of God underfoot and declare it common ground.

The central motivation behind Calvinism then is in fact the intense awareness of, and sensitivity to, the Holiness of God, on a very personal and intimate level.

The motivation is not opportunistic, not even scriptural, but experiential. It is a motivation ‘forced’ by the abiding presence of the Holy Ghost.

“theologyonline.com”

Amen.

 

[JaKael02]

I forgot to add a quote… Seems I’ve been reading 1 Clement a bit the last few days as a result of this thread:

“And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen.” - 1 Clement 32:4

Sums up my position rather well.

Lincs

I agree Lincs. I want to provide what I think is more simplied and less divisive definition.

In my own opinion, Catholics over complicate faith, hope, & charity. Good works only complete our faith. Good works is what demonstrates our faith.

Protestants state if you have faith, you will naturally do good works. Catholics state you will do good works to demonstrate your faith. (Semantics, in my opinion)

An analogy I heard on CAL to explain the differences:
God breathed life into Adams nostrils. In the Catholic perspective, God breathed life (faith) into Adam and therefore Adam must eat (good works) to remain alive. In the Protestant perspective, God breathed life (faith) into Adam, and therefore Adam will want to eat (good works) because he is alive.

Just a different angle.

Regards,
James

 

[Lincoln7]

I agree Lincs. I want to provide what I think is more simplied and less divisive definition.

In my own opinion, Catholics over complicate faith, hope, & charity. Good works only complete our faith. Good works is what demonstrates our faith.

Protestants state if you have faith, you will naturally do good works. Catholics state you will do good works to demonstrate your faith. (Semantics, in my opinion)

An analogy I heard on CAL to explain the differences:
God breathed life into Adams nostrils. In the Catholic perspective, God breathed life (faith) into Adam and therefore Adam must eat (good works) to remain alive. In the Protestant perspective, God breathed life (faith) into Adam, and therefore Adam will want to eat (good works) because he is alive.

Just a different angle.

Regards,
James

Hi James,

A couple of ligonier articles here on it all… Not rigorous defences of my position, but simple explanations of what it is:
ligonier.org/learn/qas/what-do-our-good-deeds-have-do-our-salvation/
ligonier.org/blog/faith-and-works/

Lincs.

 

[anthony022071]

Hi Anthony,

Limiting “works of the law” purely to ceremonial rites of the mosaic covenant does not hold water - files.wts.edu/uploads/pdf/publications/wtj/silva-fall-01.pdf Excellent article there by Moises Silva in The Westminister Theological Journal, on this… Plus I’m not saying works are unimportant in the life of a believer, far from it. Simply that they are not the basis of justification, for this is by faith alone.

The question of whether the “works of the law” are limited to ceremonial rites in the Mosaic covenant can be easily answered by the fact that the moral commandments are not limited to the Mosaic covenant. The works of the law in Paul’s letters refers to circumcision and other prescriptions of the Jewish law,as can be seen from the context,whereas the moral commandments are not limited to the Jewish law but were given to all humanity from the creation of man. The moral commandments are a matter of natural law,and are intrinsic to the order of creation. As Paul says in the letter to the Romans,the pagans who obey the law show that the law is written upon their hearts,and they will be judged according to their consciences. And I’m sure that you will agree with Paul when he says: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6-9) These people will be condemned because they continue to violate the commandments and natural law. So it is clear that the moral laws are still binding upon us. They do not themselves save us,simply because they are not God,but we cannot be saved without obeying them,unless we are dying and repentant. They are the basis for our final justification on the day of judgement,because we will be judged according to our deeds and will either be saved or condemned because of them. This should be clear from scripture. How do you manage to separate salvation by faith from what scripture says about how God judges us by our actions,and either saves or condemns us according to them? It ought to be evident from scripture that obedience to God’s commandments do lead to justification on the day of judgement,and thus moral works do lead to eternal salvation.

 

[Emerite]

I have difficulty with Lincoln’s comment “If you mean that good works merit toward our justification, then most certainly we disagree here, for justification is solely the work of God, based on no merit on our part, and comes by faith alone.”

I know many fine Christians who appear to be well on their way to being saved. But, how can a known abuser of alcohol and philanderer, who says he’s “saved,” merit heaven? Don’t a person’s actions count for something? And if self-proclaimed Christian “saved” people are truly saved and expect to freely enter heaven, why do we Christians have (or need) the Ten Commandments?

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Anthony,

Let me straighten a few positions which people have gotten confused on it seems:
Works are important. I’m not denying this. But they don’t contribute to the believers justification. Why? To quote the Heidelberg catechism (available at: wts.edu/resources/creeds/heidelberg.html)

1. Q. But do our good works earn nothing, even though God promises to reward them in this life and the next?

A. This reward is not earned[1]; it is a gift of grace.[2]

[1] Matt. 5:12; Heb. 11:6. [2] Luke 17:10; II Tim. 4:7, 8.

Justification is by faith alone, a gift of Gods grace. It cannot be earned by good works, why?

1. Q. But why can our good works not be our righteousness before God, or at least a part of it?

A. Because the righteousness which can stand before God’s judgment must be absolutely perfect and in complete agreement with the law of God,[1] whereas even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin.[2]

[1] Deut. 27:26; Gal. 3:10. [2] Is. 64:6.

Lincs.

 

[Lincoln7]

I have difficulty with Lincoln’s comment “If you mean that good works merit toward our justification, then most certainly we disagree here, for justification is solely the work of God, based on no merit on our part, and comes by faith alone.”

I know many fine Christians who appear to be well on their way to being saved. But, how can a known abuser of alcohol and philanderer, who says he’s “saved,” merit heaven? Don’t a person’s actions count for something? And if self-proclaimed Christian “saved” people are truly saved and expect to freely enter heaven, why do we Christians have (or need) the Ten Commandments?

Hi Emerite,
To again quite the Heidelberg

1. Q. Does this teaching not make people careless and wicked?

A. No. It is impossible that those grafted into Christ by true faith should not bring forth fruits of thankfulness.[1]

[1] Matt. 7:18; Luke 6:43-45; John 15:5.

wts.edu/resources/creeds/heidelberg.html

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi all,

I’ve been travelling today, which gave me great opportunity to get deep into The Institutes… For the objection that ‘the works excluded are ceremonial, not moral works.’(1), see John Calvin, Institutes of The Christian Religion, Book Third, Chapter 11, section 19.

It can be viewed on ccel.org.

Calvin gives a rather powerful response to said position.

regards.

Lincs