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GaryTaylor
Guest
Missed the point, no biggie.
- Status
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Exactly, you know whats a Blessing in understanding this clearly is Catherine of Siena “Dialogues” of course a Classic. I know you comprehend this but as a help for others.
Peace
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Lincoln7
Guest
Hi Pablope,
The meaning of the scriptures is clear; Justification is by faith alone, not because of works…
“And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness” (Rom 4:5) - The righteousness of Christ, freely imputed to him who trusts not in his works, but believes in Jesus Christ alone for his salvation.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10) - Sums it all up in a nutshell. By grace, through faith, not of works of our own doing, so that none of us may boast. “we are his workmanship”; justification is solely the work of God and not man. We then live a life of good works in response to this, they are important yes, and will be rewarded, but don’t have anything to do with the initial remission of sin… Paul is clear on that.
There are Catholics who hold to Thomistic views on predestination, some who hold to Molinist ones? Who is correct? Some Catholics hold to material sufficiency, others to partim partim, who is correct? The argument goes both ways, as Catholics can also disagree on doctrines and positions.
The thousands number is a myth, see here: aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2218
And here for a Catholic look at it: cathapol.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/33000-denominations.html
Indeed splits are regretfull yes. But once we get past the thousands number, it’s apparent the divisions that are of more import are to do with the sacraments, followed in general by church government, things which can be discussed and hopefully agreements made. So yeah, don’t get me wrong, I lament over schisms for minor issues, but can’t see how from this I am to therefore conclude Rome has everything correct.
The man has taught me a lot.
It’s an assembly of people who meet to worship the one true God. That preaches the pure Gosepl of free justification by God, administers the sacraments, and exercises discipline. I also have in mind the idea of church visible and invisible.
Kind regards, Pablope
Lincs.
Indeed, read Calvin on justification by faith alone here: m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xii.html
The meaning of the scriptures is clear; Justification is by faith alone, not because of works…
“And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness” (Rom 4:5) - The righteousness of Christ, freely imputed to him who trusts not in his works, but believes in Jesus Christ alone for his salvation.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10) - Sums it all up in a nutshell. By grace, through faith, not of works of our own doing, so that none of us may boast. “we are his workmanship”; justification is solely the work of God and not man. We then live a life of good works in response to this, they are important yes, and will be rewarded, but don’t have anything to do with the initial remission of sin… Paul is clear on that.
Romans 3:28 - Indeed Paul’s entire argument in this section of romans, is that justification is not by works of the law. Works which encapsulate the whole of the law, the law which was expounded perfectly for us in the sermon on the mount. Can we perfectly fulfil it? No. We thus put faith in Christ alone to save us.
Indeed, some Protestants I’m sure do depart from the historic position on things. I’m sure some Catholics do as well.
There are Catholics who hold to Thomistic views on predestination, some who hold to Molinist ones? Who is correct? Some Catholics hold to material sufficiency, others to partim partim, who is correct? The argument goes both ways, as Catholics can also disagree on doctrines and positions.
I mean I’m prepared to say that sacred scripture is clear on justification by faith alone.
How is it authroritative? It is the word of God, it thus partakes of his authority, as if he were speaking directly to us… Indeed that is why I believe it is authoritative… On my assurance of the correct books; firstly, the providence of God. Secondly, the historical recognition of books by the early church. I see no need for an infallible church for this, they didn’t… No infallible pronouncement came until Trent. Ws every Christian prior to this unsure?
The thousands number is a myth, see here: aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2218
And here for a Catholic look at it: cathapol.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/33000-denominations.html
Indeed splits are regretfull yes. But once we get past the thousands number, it’s apparent the divisions that are of more import are to do with the sacraments, followed in general by church government, things which can be discussed and hopefully agreements made. So yeah, don’t get me wrong, I lament over schisms for minor issues, but can’t see how from this I am to therefore conclude Rome has everything correct.
I am enjoying my institutes reading, thanks friend
The man has taught me a lot.It’s an assembly of people who meet to worship the one true God. That preaches the pure Gosepl of free justification by God, administers the sacraments, and exercises discipline. I also have in mind the idea of church visible and invisible.
Kind regards, Pablope
Lincs.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Whos in the avatar Linc? Anyone you know? 
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Lincoln7
Guest
Whos in the avatar Linc? Anyone you know?
Not seen Monsters Inc. ? It’s Mike Wazowski!
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pablope
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QUOTE]
So now the question…why should I believe Calvin or Luther? Why not Ratzinger, Hahn, Aguinas, Francis de Sales, Catherine of Sienna?
What makes Calvin or Luther better or more believable than the ones I mentioned?
But you did not really answer my question…which I repost below:
There are differing understanding and interpretations…so which one is correct? Who will make the judgement that one interpretation and understanding is correct and one is not?
Well…so the Bible does not say it that Calvin or Luther are at harmony…it is their take on it, their interpretation…
So now the question…why should I believe Calvin or Luther? Why not Ratzinger, Hahn, Aguinas, Francis de Sales, Catherine of Sienna?
What makes Calvin or Luther better or more believable than the ones I mentioned?
Well, Linc…it if is so clear…there would be no Methodists,Anglicans, non-demons…etc,…there would not be several thousand protestant denoms, would there?
Same question, linc…it if is so clear…there would be no Methodists,Anglicans, non-demons…etc,…there would not be several thousand protestant denoms, would there?
But you did not really answer my question…which I repost below:
There are differing understanding and interpretations…so which one is correct? Who will make the judgement that one interpretation and understanding is correct and one is not?
Well, how do you know, Linc? By what authority can you say that? If you told them, they would say the same to you…you could cite scripture to them all day…and vice versa…and you will end up nowhere…or you will end up back to square one.
How? Those that depart are ex-comm. Those who hold a different view, granted there are, that choose to remain catholics…do not establish their own religions…though.
Whoever the Magisterium says…Linc.
Whoever the Magisterium says…Linc.
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pablope
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[/QUOTE]Hi Pablope,
It is a question of pride…this is where it all boils down to…isn’t it?
Let me ask you…just to ponder…Catherine of Sienna reformed the Church, the papacy, without the need to split the Church. For this, she received the Stigmata and her body remained incorruptible…so I think you would agree with me that her reforms where from God…right?
Now…why was there a need to split the Church with the reformation of Calvin, Luther, et al?
Well…if not Rome…which? If you have a needed guidance in, let us say AD1200, which Church would you go to? In Ad900? In Ad500?
Nobody can conclude that for you…it is the job of the Holy Spirit.
Or you can read how this guy concluded it…calledtocommunion.com/2012/02/making-my-way-to-the-church-christ-founded-2/
This is the question he asked…Is it not just obviously absurd to suppose that I could be right, and that Christ’s Church could be wrong — to suppose that the Holy Spirit would guide me to the truth in some important doctrinal matter, but not the Church? It was easy to see that to ask the question was practically the same as to answer it: if the Church and I disagree about some dogma or other genuinely important doctrine, it’s obvious that I must be the one who is mistaken, and consequently I need to change my views to match the Church’s. If the Church could be wrong — if the Holy Spirit does not protect the Church from error somehow — then there is certainly no reason to believe that I am right either. Because if the Holy Spirit does not protect the Church from error, why on earth would He protect me from error?.. There must, then, be some sense in which God protects them in the exercise of their authority, so that they do not exercise it in such a way as to make it impossible for Him to fulfill His promise.
Or here…calledtocommunion.com/2012/02/an-opc-pastor-enters-the-catholic-church/
- What piqued my interest now was the peculiar thesis of this one book. Bouyer claimed that the Catholic Church is necessary for the full flowering of the principles of the Reformation. Put differently – Protestantism needs Catholicism in order to become all it aspires to be, which, of course, if true means the Protestant Reformation was completely unnecessary. Worse, it means that the Reformation was impossible from the outset because the reformers had unwittingly cut themselves off from the only source that could make their vision fruitful.*
Good…can you comment on this article (when you have the time)…calledtocommunion.com/2012/03/have-you-been-born-again-catholic-reflections-on-a-protestant-doctrine-or-how-calvins-view-of-salvation-destroyed-his-doctrine-of-the-church/I am enjoying my institutes reading, thanks friend
It’s an assembly of people who meet to worship the one true God. That preaches the pure Gosepl of free justification by God, administers the sacraments, and exercises discipline.
Kind regards, PablopeHmmmm…which one is it…visible or invisible? How could this coexist with each other? You cannot have it both ways, Linc…
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KathleenGee
Guest
Faith without works is like the parable Christ taught…about the man stuck in the ditch, and those passing by, instead of pulling him out, said they would pray for him at the temple.
Faith is not kept under a bushel. Our faith is meant to shine in the world, and it is not about having a shining, smiling face. Then it is not about Christ, but about you…
Our great vocation in life is holiness…union with God…and we cannot achieve union with God without crossing the bridge – the crucified Lord…laying down our lives for Him, picking up the Cross and following Him, being the humble servant.
The servant places himself at the feet of others to serve them, not with his power, but through the grace of Christ.
Otherwise, we are no different than other nice people in the world.
We are always taught to not listen to what a person does, but to see how words match their actions.
Integrity of Christian faith…as the Word says, we will be known by our deeds on judgment day.
Christ will let us know the times we served Him in the suffering and needy, and the times we thought we were serving Him, but we were not.
Christ’s words at Judgment Day most indeed point to deeds. Anybody who thinks He will judge otherwise is not following Scripture.
Faith is not kept under a bushel. Our faith is meant to shine in the world, and it is not about having a shining, smiling face. Then it is not about Christ, but about you…
Our great vocation in life is holiness…union with God…and we cannot achieve union with God without crossing the bridge – the crucified Lord…laying down our lives for Him, picking up the Cross and following Him, being the humble servant.
The servant places himself at the feet of others to serve them, not with his power, but through the grace of Christ.
Otherwise, we are no different than other nice people in the world.
We are always taught to not listen to what a person does, but to see how words match their actions.
Integrity of Christian faith…as the Word says, we will be known by our deeds on judgment day.
Christ will let us know the times we served Him in the suffering and needy, and the times we thought we were serving Him, but we were not.
Christ’s words at Judgment Day most indeed point to deeds. Anybody who thinks He will judge otherwise is not following Scripture.
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Lincoln7
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Hi Pablope, hope you’re well.
Why The Reformers? Well, read them, see what they have to say… As for the other you list, I do indeed read them as well, but on the issue of Justfiication, the reformers lay out clearly what The NT teaches.
Personal interpretation or opinion of what though? There is nothing in scripture at all to support these new proposed dogmas, neither is there in tradition, it is solely the magisterium proclaiming them to be true, as I have said before, I see this position as sola eclessia.
Continued…
I’m rather confused my friend on what you mean? Obviously scripture does not say “Calvin or Luther are right”, the authors of scripture never knew them… Indeed, it is their interpretation, but scripture is rather perspicous on justification…
Why The Reformers? Well, read them, see what they have to say… As for the other you list, I do indeed read them as well, but on the issue of Justfiication, the reformers lay out clearly what The NT teaches.
I mean it is clear on the topic of Justfiication by faith alone, wich the denominations you list all hold to.
Well, orthodoxy for Protestantism would be enshrined by the creeds and confessions that came from the earliest days of the Reformation period. If people are teaching things contrary to these on essential issues, e,g. Justification,they have departed from Protestant orthodoxy.
So Catholics can depart from church teaching and the church teaching remains fine, but if a Protestant departs from his protestant orthodoxy, it means that Protestant theology must be wrong? as this seems to be what you imply above friend.
The thing is, it hasn’t said. It won’t make a pronouncement on either of these issues, it allows liberty on them for now. Why not use the infallibility it claims and settle the matter?
Well as you can hold either Thomistic or Molinist views and still be an orthodox catholic, I’d say there is disagreement on things…
Personal interpretation or opinion of what though? There is nothing in scripture at all to support these new proposed dogmas, neither is there in tradition, it is solely the magisterium proclaiming them to be true, as I have said before, I see this position as sola eclessia.
One verse of James, poses no issue to Reformed theology on this matter. This is what I mean by the clarity of scripture:
All necessary for salvation is clear in them, for all to see. No magisterium is needed for this.All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto allyet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.q
Continued…
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Lincoln7
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Yes somebody told me… I’m unsure why you think this is an issue for sola scriptura?
So you have accepted the Protestant position then? That there was no inffalible magisterium needed, rather the early church received the books of the canon, and in due time, put them into one book as opposed to keeping them as multiple letters? On the reason for scripture, I refer people to “The Heresy of Orthodxy”, which details the reasons for the penning of scripture with great clarity.
I have not been able to give an exact number, as I don’t know, i can’t afford to buy the resources! But it has been amply demonstrated that the “tens of thousands” number is grossly untrue. Well the vast majority of “non denominationals” hold vastly similar beliefs… (not that I’m defending every last one of them, I’m rather confessional in outlook, wary of churches that don’t subscribe to one)
Indee she did, Luther tried to do the same, but the church of his time refused to listen to the truth he was proclaiming. On saintly miracles, I have no opinion on these as yet, anther thread.
Why should I not accept Orthodoxy as the true church?
Regarding your posts on the called to communion site, and the link you post asking for my opinion, it was examined here a while back: beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/magic-moment-conversions-and-called-to.html
it’s both, the visible church is made up of both elect and non elect. The invisible church is made up only of Gods elect, it is known only to him.
If I may finish with some questions of my own:
- How did you conclude that the Catholic Church was indeed the true church, without using your own private interpretation of church history, Traditon or Scripture?
- Is the magisterium of the Catholci church perspicous in what it says?
Lincs
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Lincoln7
Guest
Indeed. Faith without works is dead.
As a Protestant I have a different order on things though: Faith alone leads to justification, a right standing before God, the free imputation of Christs righteousness. One then lives a life of continued repentance in which the old nature is put off, the new put on daily, and good works are evidence of the work being done in the believer. They are not seen to contribute to justification, but as evidences of it.
Kind regards
Lincs,
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Not bad Linc. I see this…
Justification by Faith Alone is a term often misunderstood. I see no reason to raise it up the flagpole. The term is not even phrased correctly in understanding Bible.
Love Your Neighbor brings correct perspective to Grace/Faith-then Justification, for one cannot Love Thy Neighbor until you can correctly Love Yourself thus the Lord.
First Grace thus Faith of converstion preceeds Justification, so immediately the term “Justification by Faith alone” is in reverse. ‘Through this power of the HS we take part in Christs Passion by dying to sin, and, His resurrection by being born to a new life; we become united with the Lord as the branch grafted to the vine’…by Baptism to start.
‘Justification frees us from the enslavement of sin. It is “merited” to us by the Passion of Christ who offered Himself on the Cross as a living victim.’
So too then those who more has been given [the Cross in redemption] So too more is expected. Thus the correction in Love Thy Neighbor, Biblically!
So, as St Thomas Aquinas was mentioned, his take… “The believers act of Faith does not terminate in the propostitions, but in the realites which they express”
However the Works cannot be avoided, “Love Your Neighbor” become’s imperative in understanding the self, and occurs as a natural response to the Lord. So to through and by following this commandment Virtue’s increase in Grace/Faith/Works.
Other words in ascending Jacobs Ladder, your Grace increases, so then your Faith/works must increase to ascend, or decrease thus lack of faith thus Grace thus to descend.
Daniel is another example, The Lord commands Daniel to “Remain on this step”. Thats Jacobs Ladder, and how was Daniel to do this? By Maintaining His Faith through whatever he did as works, and avoiding the transgressions of his desire. Here…
google.com/url?q=http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.viii.xx.html&sa=U&ei=qfa3T8TfEZGN6QGB26CpDQ&ved=0CBMQFjAB&sig2=IaiFsZmQsF6RPN6pPOVLew&usg=AFQjCNGfnel5IHsciKZCCGI67b_zPpj1Kg
So the Soul is purified by the Fire of Divine Love, however this fire as with any Fire starts with a spark, it kindles, and in time it consumes through our cooperation of Free-Will, at some point the souls concern is no longer for itself at all. For it has long seen all imperfection in it self, walking in Gods light, all spot and stain is seen. So too the infinite will always appear infinite to the finite, however the steps along the path are observed by the Soul, it see’s the two-fold reality of the vertical-ascention to the Lord, and horizontal-being time. Ascention can only come by these Virtues in decending of the self, for the basis is humility, thus to clearly see the self in truth. Thus to learn to correctly Love oneself, in order to correctly “Love Thy Neighbor”.
The eye’s turn then to many “Neighbors” to those who remain in a state mortal sin and eternal damnation, this is to Love Thy Neighbor, not just in a polite passing comment which indicates; go along to get along, yet to interceed by prayer through Love for the neighbor, the converstion of sinners. So too also to bring dignity to those who’s purification has taken them far down the path in this physical realm, where their physical afflictions. limitations, age, barriers, are all passing, and so too is their Soul moving onward, be it young or old for this horizontal reality is of no consequence but to learn to understand Gods Love to bring Gods Love to humanity, thus the Kingdom realized by mans free-will to cooperate with the Lords Love.
So then it is true that the desire is to manifold works of endurance with patience, together with the other virtue’s which are intrinsic to the Soul, all of which must be in activity in order to be worthy of Grace.
Obviously the virtues differ in one degree or another from soul to soul for the ways of the Lord seem endless as He is infinite. Course I am using the term “He” as I would “mankind” here.
Here we are talking “infinite works” not words which are finite works, infinite works, that is the infinite perfection of Love in the Lords understanding of Love. In fact this shouldn’t even be a conscious rational effort against ones thought process, but an immediate known in response to “Love Thy Neighbor”, thus the path of the souls perfection. Course now I’m thinking the internal conflict of desolation/consolation.
Understanding that Grace/Faith preceeds Justification, only places us at the “Starting Line” of the “Finish the Race” St Paul spoke about. St Paul is great example of the Race in his works. Pauls Grace continued through the course of his life and culminated in martrydom which could be no greater act of love your neighbor.
Seeking out individual models to answer the how of the Lords Grace helps understand for sure. However, it’s understanding another Souls path, to enlighten ones own. The Universal message cannot be ignored.
This is why the Church states the Saints are lights along the path.
“Parts from the CCC in quotes, combined with my own thinking”.
Thats it I’m going to Church …Real Presence Linc
Talk Soon
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KathleenGee
Guest
The Real Presence is the center of our faith…the Lord among us, the Eucharistic Lord…and at the same time the concrete form of unity – not symbolic interpretations of Scripture…Do I follow Paul?..
The Eucharist is the visible sign of our unity…His Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity…Sacred Scripture begins with the imagery of obtaining the Divine through eating…a human activity for survival of life.
There is the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life…that is fulfilled in Christ and His fruit of the Eucharist.
The sign of authority is through the Apostles who were witnesses to the Lord…not men who essentially threw the baby out with the bath water for the sake of reform…
The Eucharist is the visible sign of our unity…His Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity…Sacred Scripture begins with the imagery of obtaining the Divine through eating…a human activity for survival of life.
There is the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life…that is fulfilled in Christ and His fruit of the Eucharist.
The sign of authority is through the Apostles who were witnesses to the Lord…not men who essentially threw the baby out with the bath water for the sake of reform…
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pablope
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Lincoln7
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From my perspective, the reformed understanding is following the apostles. Calvin rejected transubstantiation not “for the sake of reform” but out of scriptural convictions. I’m not debating presence with you, simply the manner of said presence. “This is my body” doesn’t automatically mean transubstantiation. For Calvin on this, see: Institues, book third, chapter 17 - m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.xviii.html
Regards
Lincs.
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pablope
Guest
Yes somebody told me… I’m unsure why you think this is an issue for sola scriptura?
Just wanted to be sure…
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pablope
Guest
My conclusion on the true church being the CC…I would say it was affirmed by, but not limited to:Yes somebody told me… I’m unsure why you think this is an issue for sola scriptura?
If I may finish with some questions of my own:
Kind regards, Pablope
- How did you conclude that the Catholic Church was indeed the true church, without using your own private interpretation of church history, Traditon or Scripture?
- Is the magisterium of the Catholci church perspicous in what it says?
Lincs
a). The miracles of the saints…the stigmatics, the incorruptibles, the healings at Lourdes, the apparitions…how the Church can discern the authentic one from those that are not…(this is not exhaustive by the way)…exorcism (why did the lutheran approach the CC here…youtube.com/watch?v=dDgoNlOn-hk)
b). The only church with a council on unity…to fulfill the wishes of Christ that all be one.
c). Testimonies of protestant converts…especially pastors…who are willing to give up their ministry to join the CC. Example would be Deacon Alex Jones…one compelling account I read…a family, before converting, entered a catholic church…then felt an unmistakable holy presence…there, when they first hear the Mass…then there was another family’s experience with their first Lent…when they attend Good Friday services…and one of their children remarked…upon entering the church…(paraphrasing)…this feels like a protestant church (pls take no offense here).
d). Disobedience…as I stated…I asked myself…why can Catherine of Sienna reform the Church without splitting it? I can definitely see this is from God, that she received the Stigmata, and her body was incorrupt.
And comparing the reformers (no offense intended, I apologize in advance)…and see their disobedience…and look at those who faced them, like Francis de Sales…who were holy, humble…that they denied any personal authority to define doctrine, and deferred willingly, even joyfully, to the authority of Pope and council…they could maintain the biblical ideal of doctrinal unity, without claiming to be the source of that unity…when compared with Luther, Calvin, et al.
Remember… from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
Kind Regards, Linc…have a nice weekend…
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I often wonder who actually reads the Saints. I can’t understand how one can read Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Catherine of Siena and not be affected. It alludes all reason in my mind. Truly.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Linc,
I have been out doing various cases, and have not been able to be more active…but I am back…
Problem is when you follow Calvin or Luther, you are also following them who lived 1500 years after the event.
You have to go back to ancient Christian history to see how the faith of the Apostles was lived out…and this transmission of fidelity to the understanding of salvation and practice in the Church is the Holy Spirit, the transmission of grace in Christ.
It has never been broken. The liturgy of the ancients always revolved around the reality of the fulfillment of the Passover and Day of Atonement in the Eucharist as True Blood and True Flesh, the sacred meal as St. Paul referred.
There are various precursors in Sacred Scripture in the Old Testament that attest to the Lord providing food by multiplying it for the devout…
Removing the reality of the Eucharist and reducing it to symbolism is in essence placing belief in Christ as something relative, bringing in all sorts of interpretations of beliefs and practice, which in turn bring the dismantling and fragmentation of Christ’s Church.
It was Luther who broke the faith of the ever present Holy Spirit preserving and transmitting the faith of the apostles into each generation through the ecclesia, the liturgy, the understanding of Scripture, the Creed.
Reading early church fathers, in good faith they would submit their learnings to the Church for review, so that in turn the integrity of fidelity to Christ was upheld in prayer and the Holy Spirit…much discernment…
Whereas, Protestant leaders, who were right in wanting reform and more lay participation in the life of the Church, however, removed themselves from it.
I greatly benefited from an article on www.calledtocommunion.com that goes back to 2009, and its topic is ecclesial deism. Many articles are very well presented by former Protestant ministers, highly educated. Pablope knows the article quite well.
But we as universal Christians, do have the claim of preserving in the faith given us by the Apostles. And our faith in Christ is big enough that we can trust this authority of the apostles to continue to be at work today as it was in early times.
I am only a beginning student of church history, but reading through it, I am amazed at how so much of its history is one of trial and tribulation, scandal, wars, and destruction, and how the Church continues to survive. We see that today and now one diocese that was the epicenter of the priest scandal is witnessing to a noticeable increase in vocations. Christ prunes His Tree of Life, and cuts down the bad branches that do not bear good fruit.
We just have to be patient, and unfortunately with Luther and Calvin they were not. I am a cradle Catholic and if I am not a Catholic/Orthodox, then I would be nothing. I cannot join a denomination founded by a single man. I just can’t. There are no check or balances…and it seems so so so lonely…just one man and his followers…vs the universal Church. Can’t do it.
I have been out doing various cases, and have not been able to be more active…but I am back…
Problem is when you follow Calvin or Luther, you are also following them who lived 1500 years after the event.
You have to go back to ancient Christian history to see how the faith of the Apostles was lived out…and this transmission of fidelity to the understanding of salvation and practice in the Church is the Holy Spirit, the transmission of grace in Christ.
It has never been broken. The liturgy of the ancients always revolved around the reality of the fulfillment of the Passover and Day of Atonement in the Eucharist as True Blood and True Flesh, the sacred meal as St. Paul referred.
There are various precursors in Sacred Scripture in the Old Testament that attest to the Lord providing food by multiplying it for the devout…
Removing the reality of the Eucharist and reducing it to symbolism is in essence placing belief in Christ as something relative, bringing in all sorts of interpretations of beliefs and practice, which in turn bring the dismantling and fragmentation of Christ’s Church.
It was Luther who broke the faith of the ever present Holy Spirit preserving and transmitting the faith of the apostles into each generation through the ecclesia, the liturgy, the understanding of Scripture, the Creed.
Reading early church fathers, in good faith they would submit their learnings to the Church for review, so that in turn the integrity of fidelity to Christ was upheld in prayer and the Holy Spirit…much discernment…
Whereas, Protestant leaders, who were right in wanting reform and more lay participation in the life of the Church, however, removed themselves from it.
I greatly benefited from an article on www.calledtocommunion.com that goes back to 2009, and its topic is ecclesial deism. Many articles are very well presented by former Protestant ministers, highly educated. Pablope knows the article quite well.
But we as universal Christians, do have the claim of preserving in the faith given us by the Apostles. And our faith in Christ is big enough that we can trust this authority of the apostles to continue to be at work today as it was in early times.
I am only a beginning student of church history, but reading through it, I am amazed at how so much of its history is one of trial and tribulation, scandal, wars, and destruction, and how the Church continues to survive. We see that today and now one diocese that was the epicenter of the priest scandal is witnessing to a noticeable increase in vocations. Christ prunes His Tree of Life, and cuts down the bad branches that do not bear good fruit.
We just have to be patient, and unfortunately with Luther and Calvin they were not. I am a cradle Catholic and if I am not a Catholic/Orthodox, then I would be nothing. I cannot join a denomination founded by a single man. I just can’t. There are no check or balances…and it seems so so so lonely…just one man and his followers…vs the universal Church. Can’t do it.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
About saints and the ecclesia that Gary is referring to, what is amazing about the lives of the saints and their contribution to the Church is the many charisms and different personalities, but always building up our knowledge in the one same Christ, the same theology, the same disciplines of the Cross.
We seek only Jesus Christ and bear His fruit. He is calling us to communion, to unity, and the price is great. There are times I have wanted to leave and be free of public controversy and shame…but I turn to Him, and His Spirit helps me remain and put my focus on doing God’s will in my life, nurtured on His Word and Sacraments, and seeing our Holy Father as the sign of our communion.
The Council of Trent provided more advisors to the papacy to avoid excesses of its past…Reform was done at this Council, and following Councils. I have worked in fraternal settings with the clergy, and they are constantly seeking Christ and continually reflecting on themselves if they and their works are reflecting on Him or not.
We seek only Jesus Christ and bear His fruit. He is calling us to communion, to unity, and the price is great. There are times I have wanted to leave and be free of public controversy and shame…but I turn to Him, and His Spirit helps me remain and put my focus on doing God’s will in my life, nurtured on His Word and Sacraments, and seeing our Holy Father as the sign of our communion.
The Council of Trent provided more advisors to the papacy to avoid excesses of its past…Reform was done at this Council, and following Councils. I have worked in fraternal settings with the clergy, and they are constantly seeking Christ and continually reflecting on themselves if they and their works are reflecting on Him or not.
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