Bahá'í

[Mickey]

Mickey, thank you for the link to St.Basils liturgy.

You are welcome.

Did he write all of that himself or was there some creedal insertions as well?

As a matter of fact, there was spme creedal insertion! The Nicene Creed is there. St Basil approved of it also! There is a section of the creed which reads: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages,** Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made, **

I still have not heard from anyone, Mickey, Flame, Ignatian, anyone what they understand from the paragraph I provided from St. Basils letters several posts ago.

Much of what St Basil proclaimed (including his Liturgy) was provided for you so that you could understand his thinking in context. You have rejected it because you somehow want to believe that he condoned the bahai interpretation. But alas you have been shown to be wrong and terribly mistaken.

I have been accused of cherry picking

Yes, and you are still trying to get your money’s worth for that batch of cherries.

 

[Servant19]

Hi Mickey, you are welcome to ask me my understanding of ANY word, sentence, paragraph or entire Tablet from Bahai Scripture and I will offer you a valid undrstanding that correlates very closely to the clear intended meaning of said word, sentence, paragraph or Tablet.

The insistence for the need of context is very much valid, but WITHIN the specific letter or Tablet. Context is not provided by referencing a whole different Letter altogether.

In like manner, it can be easily said that you choose not to provide your understanding so that you can resolutely stick to a doctrine which has clearly been made by man to entertain an exclusivistic (and therefore discriminatory) attitude that has and will continue to see many millions reject the Catholic Faith in favour of more inclusive and clearly defined, rational belief systems which provide empirical evidence of life, love and collaboration through the application of their all-inclusive principles

I will enjoy my cherries dear friend, they are sweet and provide me with wondrous manna, the manna of utilizing my God given attributes of intellect, understanding and truth-seeking

God bless you

 

[daler]

Note: I am not sure where to insert this quotation, but believe it to be relevant to the past few posts. He is not referring to the elements of His physical body here, and I believe it could be said by any Manifestation of God equally.

“The substance out of which God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover… I am one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God. Whoso ever hath recognized Me hath known all that is true and right and hath attained all that is good and seemly, and whosoever hath failed to recognize Me hath turned away from all that is true and right and hath succumbed to everything evil and unseemly.” The Bab

 

[daler]

Further on the Word of God:

"Know thou, moreover, that the Word of God—exalted be His glory—is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate. It is an entity far removed above all that hath been and shall be.

We are loath to enlarge on this subject, inasmuch as the unbelievers have inclined their ears towards Us in order to hear that which might enable them to cavil against God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. And since they are unable to attain to mysteries of knowledge and wisdom from what hath been unravelled by the Source of divine splendour, they rise in protest and burst into clamour. But it is true to say that they object to that which they comprehend, not to the expositions given by the Expounder, nor the truths imparted by the One true God, the Knower of things unseen. Their objections, one and all, turn upon themselves, and I swear by thy life that they are devoid of understanding.

Every thing must needs have an origin and every building a builder. Verily, the Word of God is the Cause which hath preceded the contingent world—a world which is adorned with the splendours of the Ancient of Days, yet is being renewed and regenerated at all times. Immeasurably exalted is the God of Wisdom Who hath raised this sublime structure."

from the Tablet of Hikmat (Wisdom) by Baha’u’llah

 

[Mickey]

The insistence for the need of context is very much valid, but WITHIN the specific letter or Tablet.

Patristic context includes the entire body of work…whether you can accept that or not.

In like manner, it can be easily said that you choose not to provide your understanding

It is not MY understanding. It is the interpretations of St Basil and the other holy fathers.

so that you can resolutely stick to a doctrine which has clearly been made by man

The doctrine was sent to us by God through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit… and passed onto mankind through the holy apostles and the apostolic succession.

that has and will continue to see many millions reject the Catholic Faith in favour of more inclusive and clearly defined, rational belief system

I do not see any knowledgeable Catholics leaving their faith in favor of the syncretic and heterodox bahai innovations.

I will enjoy my cherries dear friend

Yes…I see that you do.

 

[Servant19]

The doctrine was sent to you by God???

Please show me the exact place where Jesus uses the word “essence” …

 

[Mickey]

Please show me the exact place where Jesus uses the word “essence” …

Ha. Now you are playing the “where is that word used in the Bible game.” Nice try. The Scriptures tell us that Christ is God…and the Holy Spirit is God. We have the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit…one in essence and undivided. But you do nor believe what the Christians believe about who Christ was/is. And you do not believe in what the Christians believe about the Holy Trinity. And you believe that the Sacred Scriptures were corrupted. And you adhere to your own innovations.

And so I think you are here now just for the sake of argumentation.

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[PRmerger]

The doctrine was sent to you by God???

Please show me the exact place where Jesus uses the word “essence” …

It’s right next to the place where Jesus says that the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos

Perhaps you forgot you are chatting on a Catholic forum, not a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian forum? That is the question you can ask them…but you ought to know that we Catholics do not view the Word of God as limited to the Bible alone.

 

[Servant19]

…and it’s at this point where “anyone” can reveal the Word of God (which I personally consider blasphemous) where I bid you all a fond farewell and great big " GOOD LUCK"

:tiphat:

 

[PRmerger]

…and it’s at this point where “anyone” can reveal the Word of God (which I personally consider blasphemous) where I bid you all a fond farewell and great big " GOOD LUCK"

:tiphat:

Well, the only way anyone know what the written Word of God (i.e. Scripture) is, is through the Catholic Church.

 

[MartinJordan]

…and it’s at this point where “anyone” can reveal the Word of God (which I personally consider blasphemous) where I bid you all a fond farewell and great big " GOOD LUCK"

:tiphat:

With God with us, we don’t need luck. Luck is relative. God however is FOREVER.

MJ

 

[Mickey]

With God with us, we don’t need luck. Luck is relative. God however is FOREVER.

Amen brother. I never say “good luck.” I always say, “Glory to Jesus Christ!”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John1:1

 

[MartinJordan]

Amen brother. I never say “good luck.” I always say, “Glory to Jesus Christ!”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John1:1

MJ

 

[daler]

Friends,
There are these common themes recurrent in the major religions of the world which are important to consider.

From the Christian, “There shall be One Fold and One Shepherd”

From Native American: “One Sacred Hoop of all Nations”

From India: “A Buddha of Universal Brotherhood shall appear”

In fact, all of the major religious traditions speak of a time when all of God’s children shall be united together. Baha’is believe that we have entered that time, but that it is not a magical, sudden, Abra Kadabra Presto! Shazaam kind of deal.
A Prophet, or Manifestation of God is again born as a baby, like every historical prophet has been born, and that humanity is invited, not compelled, to recognize that He is from God. This thread called “Baha’i” deals with those of us who, whether coming from Christian (like myself), Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Native American, or whatever, from where ever can dialogue as to whether this has once again happened.
There is quite a rich and recent history, with immense suffering and sacrifice, associated with the appearance of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, which occurred in what we now call Iran, or Persia, and in Daniel and Jeremiah’s time was called Elam, of which their visions were specific as to time and place.
There can be shallow and mindless attacks or objective consideration given here. It is very encouraging to see some of the dialogue taking the latter course. One of my good friends is a former Catholic Priest from Austria. He is now a Doctor of Psychology and a Scholar, and has been a Baha’i for twenty years or so.
Numerous followers and leaders of the various world’s religions have come to the same conclusion, i.e., that this is for real, and deserving of consideration. Many have been slaughtered, “They shall fall by the edge of the sword.” Ten women were hung in a single day, one after the other, in an attempt to get them to recant their Faith in Baha’u’llah as the Promised One of all religions, as recently as 1983. My wife’s aunt and cousins were imprisoned around that time. My friend’s sister is in prison now, having served 5 years with 15 more to go before she will be freed, if she lives that long.
I would hope that there might be some independent research done by those who are genuinely interested in what this movement is all about, as it is very interesting subject matter up for discussion.
Thank you

 

[flameburns623]

Frankly, I was starting to feel as if we were at a point where further discussion on a web forum wasn’t going to make a lot of headway.

CatholicAnswers Live, the radio show, used to speak of itself a lot as “Catholic Apologetics 101”–which is pretty much as intensive as a popular radio show can delve into tough questions.

Frankly, Catholic Answers Forums does very well at helping people get about one more step above that, to “Apologetics 201”. Sometimes we can achieve “Apologetics 301” or even make a momentary nod to “Apologetics 401 or 501”.

But at that intellectual level, frustration levels climb, tempers flare, misunderstandings get misperceived as insults–and dialogue on web forums breaks down. We can’t look into one another’s eyes on web forums, we cannot pick up cues from body language, the medium is impersonal enough that it is easy to forget that the conversation on the other side is coming from a human being with feelings and deep emotional commitments to their own positions.

And the result is that often these conversations become toxic, something which THIS dialogue seems mostly to have avoided.

It may come to pass that in a few hours or days or weeks, someone can return to this conversation and take it in a fresh, fruitful direction. But for the moment I think things have gotten stale and the current participants are mostly at loggerheads one with another.

Just my thoughts.

 

[MartinJordan]

Friends,
There are these common themes recurrent in the major religions of the world which are important to consider.

From the Christian, “There shall be One Fold and One Shepherd”

From Native American: “One Sacred Hoop of all Nations”

From India: “A Buddha of Universal Brotherhood shall appear”

In fact, all of the major religious traditions speak of a time when all of God’s children shall be united together. Baha’is believe that we have entered that time, but that it is not a magical, sudden, Abra Kadabra Presto! Shazaam kind of deal.
A Prophet, or Manifestation of God is again born as a baby, like every historical prophet has been born, and that humanity is invited, not compelled, to recognize that He is from God. This thread called “Baha’i” deals with those of us who, whether coming from Christian (like myself), Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Native American, or whatever, from where ever can dialogue as to whether this has once again happened.
There is quite a rich and recent history, with immense suffering and sacrifice, associated with the appearance of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, which occurred in what we now call Iran, or Persia, and in Daniel and Jeremiah’s time was called Elam, of which their visions were specific as to time and place.
There can be shallow and mindless attacks or objective consideration given here. It is very encouraging to see some of the dialogue taking the latter course. One of my good friends is a former Catholic Priest from Austria. He is now a Doctor of Psychology and a Scholar, and has been a Baha’i for twenty years or so.
Numerous followers and leaders of the various world’s religions have come to the same conclusion, i.e., that this is for real, and deserving of consideration. Many have been slaughtered, “They shall fall by the edge of the sword.” Ten women were hung in a single day, one after the other, in an attempt to get them to recant their Faith in Baha’u’llah as the Promised One of all religions, as recently as 1983. My wife’s aunt and cousins were imprisoned around that time. My friend’s sister is in prison now, having served 5 years with 15 more to go before she will be freed, if she lives that long.
I would hope that there might be some independent research done by those who are genuinely interested in what this movement is all about, as it is very interesting subject matter up for discussion.
Thank you

Friend, Ive been lurking on this thread for quite a while. The bolded part I picked, is where I want to talk about. The tortures and killings you name, where they by Christians/Catholic church/Orthodox etc?

This place is a Catholic website and we have 2000 years of praising and worshiping Jesus our Lord and God. I expect the Bahai to give us the respect that is deserved and professed long before this and that prophet who just show up and tell us how to worship.

MJ

 

[daler]

Friend, Ive been lurking on this thread for quite a while. The bolded part I picked, is where I want to talk about. The tortures and killings you name, where they by Christians/Catholic church/Orthodox etc?

This place is a Catholic website and we have 2000 years of praising and worshiping Jesus our Lord and God. I expect the Bahai to give us the respect that is deserved and professed long before this and that prophet who just show up and tell us how to worship.

J

Dear friend, Indeed, No. Thanks be to God. No derogatory tone towards the Catholic Faith was intended whatsoever. Every Catholic that I have known have all been very good Christians.
This comment stemmed from a very few who recently seem to denigrate the dialogue.

What is referred to is mostly taking place in Iran, where fanatic mullahs excite mobs to persecute Baha’is, destroy their business, even cemeteries. Where children are not allowed an education unless they recant their beliefs and revert to Islam. Where pensions are stolen, and various brutalities are not even considered by the courts.

Please forgive me for being the cause of any thoughts which are caused by this misunderstanding.
Thank you

 

[daler]

But at that intellectual level, frustration levels climb, tempers flare, misunderstandings get misperceived as insults–and dialogue on web forums breaks down. We can’t look into one another’s eyes on web forums, we cannot pick up cues from body language, the medium is impersonal enough that it is easy to forget that the conversation on the other side is coming from a human being with feelings and deep emotional commitments to their own positions.

Flame, Thank you for stating courageously a perspective well received.

My perception is that all of us are walking on a path, or paths, towards our Creator.
These paths have been first set down by the Prophets themselves, Who would have us walk with them, hand in hand.

As you articulate so clearly, there is a lack of clarity of face to face discussions, for we are separated by an electronic veil. I think this tends to add to the frustration as people with good intentions genuinely want to dialogue and reach out to others similarly intended.

From God’s perspective, I suspect that there is no “other” side…

God bless

 

[meltzerboy]

But at that intellectual level, frustration levels climb, tempers flare, misunderstandings get misperceived as insults–and dialogue on web forums breaks down. We can’t look into one another’s eyes on web forums, we cannot pick up cues from body language, the medium is impersonal enough that it is easy to forget that the conversation on the other side is coming from a human being with feelings and deep emotional commitments to their own positions.

Flame, Thank you for stating courageously a perspective well received.

My perception is that all of us are walking on a path, or paths, towards our Creator.
These paths have been first set down by the Prophets themselves, Who would have us walk with them, hand in hand.

As you articulate so clearly, there is a lack of clarity of face to face discussions, for we are separated by an electronic veil. I think this tends to add to the frustration as people with good intentions genuinely want to dialogue and reach out to others similarly intended.

From God’s perspective, I suspect that there is no “other” side…

God bless

I believe the idea you express about each of us walking on a path towards our Creator is also found in Hinduism, at least certain forms. I think you or someone else who follows the Baha’i faith mentioned the link between Baha’i and Hinduism. I would assume there is enough of a difference as well so that you do not consider yourself Hindu. Also, I see a connection between Baha’i and Judaism in that both religions reject asceticism. What is the Baha’i view about this?

 

[MartinJordan]

Dear friend, Indeed, No. Thanks be to God. No derogatory tone towards the Catholic Faith was intended whatsoever. Every Catholic that I have known have all been very good Christians. This comment stemmed from a very few who recently seem to denigrate the dialogue.

Noted. I didn’t have you in mind actually

What is referred to is mostly taking place in Iran, where fanatic mullahs excite mobs to persecute Baha’is, destroy their business, even cemeteries. Where children are not allowed an education unless they recant their beliefs and revert to Islam. Where pensions are stolen, and various brutalities are not even considered by the courts.

That is sad indeed. In my view, these atrocities are by those who are not confident about their own Faith. Perhaps their ideologies are a denigration of all that is Godly

Please forgive me for being the cause of any thoughts which are caused by this misunderstanding.
Thank you

Apologies unnecessary my friend.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions/words and God will judge them in His time.

MJ