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Mickey
Guest
Oh yeah…I forgot…bahai’s don’t believe in the existence of the devil.
The holy Apostles often wrote against heresies, errors and false prophets.
St Paul tells us:
For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
and also
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
St Peter says:
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
**Jesus Christ instructs us: **
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And these three are one.
St John the Evangelist
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PRmerger
Guest
This, ironically, is a rather uneducated statement.
Being tricked by the devil does not mean that a horned creature with a tail made an appearance before 10 million “educated people” and they were all duped by this creature.
Being tricked by the devil is, as far as I’m concerned in this discussion, simply a way to say that you have been deceived. What appears to you to be truth is actually a lie.
And if this is what is meant by being tricked by the devil, why would “educated people” be exempt from this?
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Mickey
Guest
Thank you for this proper explanation.
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PRmerger
Guest
:tiphat:Thank you for this proper explanation.
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Servant19
Guest
Were I to be a monk or ascetic, I would have been unable to work tirelessly against injustice and prejudices found amongst so many. Prejudice and injustice being manifestations of ungodliness. It’s because of comments that some people make, based on prejudices, that gives value for Bahaullah’s coming. Ascetism is not acceptable in the sight of God because to put it bluntly He has had enough of injustice and prejudice, His qualities of justice and universal love are being snuffed out by too many people claiming they have the Truth. A monk cannot do much about that living in a monastery all his life can he? Baha’is are the champions of God’s Will and are hollow vessels carrying out His work to raise aloft the Divine banner of all-embracing love and unity amongst mankind.By the way S19…I thought you had bid farewell to this thread after you made accusations of blasphemy.
LINK
So on this thread we have seen Sen, and Mirza19, both scholars in religious history, be it Christian, Islamic and Bahai history and theology.
In the past we had a lady called smaneck, who is a Bahai too, also works as a Professor in theology.
These are just 3 examples of educated individuals making an informed, intellectual and spiritual decision about the validity of Bahaullah’s Revelation.
Mickey, and PRMerger, what are your qualifications that allow you to make informed decisions to call Bahaullah a Man of the devil??
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Mickey
Guest
I am saying that Balahualla’s statement that monasticism/asceticism is “not acceptable in the prescence of God” was inspired by the Evil One. I am saying that he was deceived.
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Mickey
Guest
Nonsense. Some monks accept pilgrims regularly for spiritual direction, worship services and hospitality.
And other monks stay in seclusion and ceaslessly pray for the world (this may be the greatest vocation of all)!
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arthra
Guest
I wonder if we can recognize there are differences here but at the same time discuss these areas in a spirit of friendship and good will…?
Another statement revealed by Baha’u’llah on the subject:
The eighth Glad-Tidings The pious deeds of the monks and priests among the followers of the Spirit [1] – upon Him be the peace of God – are remembered in His presence. In this Day, however, let them give up the life of seclusion and direct their steps towards the open world and busy themselves with that which will profit themselves and others. We have granted them leave to enter into wedlock that they may bring forth one who will make mention of God, the Lord of the seen and the unseen, the Lord of the Exalted Throne.
[1 Jesus.]
~ Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 23
In my view it recognizes the past contributions of monastics to spiritual life but suggests in this day recommends they “give up the life of seclusion…”
Where we agree would be that we should be detached from worldly values:
Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest.
~ Baha’u’llah, The Arabic Hidden Words
Another statement revealed by Baha’u’llah on the subject:
The eighth Glad-Tidings The pious deeds of the monks and priests among the followers of the Spirit [1] – upon Him be the peace of God – are remembered in His presence. In this Day, however, let them give up the life of seclusion and direct their steps towards the open world and busy themselves with that which will profit themselves and others. We have granted them leave to enter into wedlock that they may bring forth one who will make mention of God, the Lord of the seen and the unseen, the Lord of the Exalted Throne.
[1 Jesus.]
~ Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 23
In my view it recognizes the past contributions of monastics to spiritual life but suggests in this day recommends they “give up the life of seclusion…”
Where we agree would be that we should be detached from worldly values:
Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest.
~ Baha’u’llah, The Arabic Hidden Words
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flameburns623
Guest
Servant19:
Brace yourself, please: what I am going to point out will perhaps be offensive.
Christian Scriptures say, rather bluntly that behind every false god is a demon
There are other passages readily located which suggest that any message professing anything other than the Christian message are demonic, that any false prophet is inspired by Satan etcetera.
And the highly-learned are clearly identified in several places as MORE VULNERABLE to demonic deception, not less so.
In Christianity, it is humility and holiness which are deemed protections against demonic deception, not learning or intelligence. Education and learning have generally been seen as important, yet dangerous commodities. The “learning of THIS world” is almost always recognised as nothing less than the work of Satan to attempt to derail the work of Christ.
There are, of course learned Christians: the Apostle Paul notable among them. But the learned are esteemed in Christianity only to the degree that their learning inspires virtue.
So far as monasticism: Most Christian monastic and/or ascetic orders are heavily involved in helping the unfortunate: the poor, the ill, the dying. It betrays ignorance on the part of Baha’i generally, and of Baha’u’llah particularly (Intending no insult), to condemn the Christian religious orders without apparent awareness of what those orders actually do.
Even in the strictly contemplative orders an even more important work–by Christian lights–is being done. Contemplative are praying, continually, on behalf of all of the rest of us who simply cannot pray continually or even regularly as we ought to do.
Prayer, in Christian understanding, works wonders in holding back the dark forces which would overwhelm our world at any instant.
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Mickey
Guest
Yes. Monastic orders are often referred to as “the angelic order.”
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flameburns623
Guest
The Scripture passage is I Car. 10:19-22, btw.
I HASTEN to remind everyone that it is a Catholic principle, straight from St. Augustine, that “All Truth is God’s Truth, all Beauty Divine”.
Much of what the Baha’i say, much of what Baha’u’llah, Abdul Baha, and Shoghi Effendi have said were true, beautiful, and ina purely natural sense, inspired. We can assume these men acted from honorable motives, expressing from a heart filled with a true if imperfect understanding of God.
In the past century-and-a-half, the Baha’i Teachings have surely helped millions to live holy and productive lives. Many good people have lived and often died for this creed. We should honor this fact and respect the believers even if we find the belief system wanting.
For this reason I think it is an offense against charity to thow out accusations of demonism against these founders or the followers of the Baha’i Faith. There are things to be learned from them, so long as one maintains a reserve, knowing that this is a purely-natural creed, born of well-intended motives, but not IMHO that which it claims for itself.
I HASTEN to remind everyone that it is a Catholic principle, straight from St. Augustine, that “All Truth is God’s Truth, all Beauty Divine”.
Much of what the Baha’i say, much of what Baha’u’llah, Abdul Baha, and Shoghi Effendi have said were true, beautiful, and ina purely natural sense, inspired. We can assume these men acted from honorable motives, expressing from a heart filled with a true if imperfect understanding of God.
In the past century-and-a-half, the Baha’i Teachings have surely helped millions to live holy and productive lives. Many good people have lived and often died for this creed. We should honor this fact and respect the believers even if we find the belief system wanting.
For this reason I think it is an offense against charity to thow out accusations of demonism against these founders or the followers of the Baha’i Faith. There are things to be learned from them, so long as one maintains a reserve, knowing that this is a purely-natural creed, born of well-intended motives, but not IMHO that which it claims for itself.
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Mickey
Guest
And I will repeat for you one more time since you seem to be a bit confused.
No one is saying that Bahualla and the others are demons. But some of what they say is not of God…henceforth inspired by demonic deception.
This is the truth and it should not be sugar-coated for the sake of “ecumenism.”
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flameburns623
Guest
As it happens, I was speaking to Servant19.
And you have been the only one to broach the topic of “ecumenism”.
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Mickey
Guest
Really? I must have missed the post where Servant 19 accused the founders of the bahai faith of demonism?
Someone’s gotta do it.
We cannot mask the truth.
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flameburns623
Guest
Mickey, your personality and mine clash even when we are not in substantive disagreement.
I have added you to my “ignore” list and would thank you to add me to yours.
Many blessings. Hopefully we can thereby maintain a more civil and Christianly exchange in this dialogue.
I have added you to my “ignore” list and would thank you to add me to yours.
Many blessings. Hopefully we can thereby maintain a more civil and Christianly exchange in this dialogue.
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Mickey
Guest
That’s interesting. I am not under the impression that our personalities clash with each other.
I will not add you to my ignore list. I only do that when someone terribly insults the Christian faith repeatedly…and you have not done so. However, you sometimes tend to gloss over serious error in heterodox belief systems for the sake of ecumenism.
But you can most certainly add me to your ignore list.
I am sorry if I have offended you. Please forgive this sinner.
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daler
Guest
Much of what the Baha’i say, much of what Baha’u’llah, Abdul Baha, and Shoghi Effendi have said were true, beautiful, and ina purely natural sense, inspired. We can assume these men acted from honorable motives, expressing from a heart filled with a true if imperfect understanding of God.
Flame, your comments come from a good heart and a spirit of tolerance, qualities generated by turning towards the Holy Spirit. Thank you for them.
Whenever a Prophet or Messiah appears, men are tested. The weakest of men hurl insults and rocks, the latter being unacceptable in societies where freedom of religion still exists. The former allowed by the guarantees of freedom of speech.
During the ministry of Christ, there were those who accused Him of being Beelzebub.
To which He replied, "Can Beelzebub cast out Beelzebub?
He was crucified not by plain and ordinary men, but by the leaders and “knowers” of religion, who failed to recognize that the Lord of the Sabbath had come, who mocked and tormented Him at every turn, debasing themselves in the very process.
Let those who choose to hurl insults from a position of ignorance and intolerance do so, and let them take delight therein. Stephen was stoned to death. Surely, a few insults can do no harm, except to those who hurl them and choose to debase themselves before a public audience.
The high moral ground must be separated from the lower. Let each choose his turf. I would prefer to stand with anyone of any Faith who chooses the higher ground, always respecting sincere differences of view, learning from those whose perspective is different than my own, as I acknowledge that I surely cannot see all there is to see, for I am not omniscient.
Whether there is agreement or not as to matters of Faith, it is the manner or reasoning and courteous discussion that counts highest and yields wondrous fruits, satisfying spiritual hunger. So much of our mutual Faith is in fact rooted in the same Divine Source, as Baha’is accept all of the Prophets sent by God in the Old and New Testaments, and seek still to understand them more fully in light of what they regard as the fulfillment of that which has been written of Those Who were yet promised to come in those same Holy Books.
“Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him. If any man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and unseemly language, no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief.”
“Come let us reason together.” and pray that God may lead us all into His truth.
Flame, your comments come from a good heart and a spirit of tolerance, qualities generated by turning towards the Holy Spirit. Thank you for them.
Whenever a Prophet or Messiah appears, men are tested. The weakest of men hurl insults and rocks, the latter being unacceptable in societies where freedom of religion still exists. The former allowed by the guarantees of freedom of speech.
During the ministry of Christ, there were those who accused Him of being Beelzebub.
To which He replied, "Can Beelzebub cast out Beelzebub?
He was crucified not by plain and ordinary men, but by the leaders and “knowers” of religion, who failed to recognize that the Lord of the Sabbath had come, who mocked and tormented Him at every turn, debasing themselves in the very process.
Let those who choose to hurl insults from a position of ignorance and intolerance do so, and let them take delight therein. Stephen was stoned to death. Surely, a few insults can do no harm, except to those who hurl them and choose to debase themselves before a public audience.
The high moral ground must be separated from the lower. Let each choose his turf. I would prefer to stand with anyone of any Faith who chooses the higher ground, always respecting sincere differences of view, learning from those whose perspective is different than my own, as I acknowledge that I surely cannot see all there is to see, for I am not omniscient.
Whether there is agreement or not as to matters of Faith, it is the manner or reasoning and courteous discussion that counts highest and yields wondrous fruits, satisfying spiritual hunger. So much of our mutual Faith is in fact rooted in the same Divine Source, as Baha’is accept all of the Prophets sent by God in the Old and New Testaments, and seek still to understand them more fully in light of what they regard as the fulfillment of that which has been written of Those Who were yet promised to come in those same Holy Books.
“Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him. If any man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and unseemly language, no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief.”
“Come let us reason together.” and pray that God may lead us all into His truth.
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flameburns623
Guest
Daler: isn’t there an apostrophe somewhere in the name of Abdul Baha? I can’t figure out where it goes.
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