Bahá'í

[MartinJordan]

From God’s perspective, I suspect that there is no “other” side…

God bless

From a Catholic perspective, there is this thing called Truth. We believe in the words of our Saviour that he is the Way, The Truth and the Life. We as Catholics must ensure we worship God in Spirit and in Truth. There is no other Truths (and this is the side we must choose). And we can trace this back 2000 years. It is all there if anyone is interested in the Catholic perspective. The Church is an open book.

As Jesus said “Do NOT be afraid, I am with you till the end of time” (sic). Thus… I look forward to the Resurrection of the Dead and the Life of the world to come.

But for now, we need to work out our Salvation. God will take care of the rest. Amen.

MJ

 

[daler]

I believe the idea you express about each of us walking on a path towards our Creator is also found in Hinduism, at least certain forms. I think you or someone else who follows the Baha’i faith mentioned the link between Baha’i and Hinduism. I would assume there is enough of a difference as well so that you do not consider yourself Hindu. Also, I see a connection between Baha’i and Judaism in that both religions reject asceticism. What is the Baha’i view about this?

Meltzer,
Yes, there is a link as well to Hindu beliefs insofar as Krsna was one of the Prophets. In the Bhagavad Gita, the Holy Book of the Hindus, Krishna said, “Whenever there is a decline in righteousness, O Bharat, and the rise of religion, it is then that I send forth My spirit. For the salvation of the good, the destruction of the evil-doers, and for firmly establishing righteousness, I manifest Myself from age to age.”
In the Baha’i view there are two ways to look at the Manifestations of God. As individuals, whose earthly identity is a mortal like ourselves, and an eternal, timeless, single Godhead Who appears from age to age. This connection would be in a lesser role perhaps, but similar, where John the Baptist was the “Return” of Elijah, expected by the Jew prior to Christ. He was the “Return” of Him in a spiritual sense, the same way that we say, for example, the rose has bloomed again this spring. It is not last year’s rose if we look at it specifically, yet it is the return of “the rose”, manifesting all of its attributes, the beauty, fragrance, etc. These are the essential qualities of the rose.
Thus, John could answer them when they asked Him, “Art thou Elias?” “Art thou that Prophet?” And He answered them truthfully, “No, I am not”. This meant that He was not that self-same individual. Yet when Jesus was asked, He replied that He was Elijah, as the spiritual reality and station of Elijah was indeed fulfilled in the coming of John the Baptist.
As to asceticism, this is prohibited. All are supposed to contribute to society and not be reclusive. Service to others is a form of worship, and participation on a social level is encouraged.

 

[arthra]

Here’s the link re. Hinduism and the Baha’i Faith:

bahai-library.com/momen_hinduism_bahai

On asceticism::

1. How many a man hath secluded himself in the
   climes of India, denied himself the things that God
   hath decreed as lawful, imposed upon himself austerities
   and mortifications # 36

These verses constitute the prohibition of monasticism and
asceticism. See the Synopsis and Codification, section IV.D.
1.y.iii.-iv. In the Words of Paradise Bahá’u’lláh amplifies
these provisions. He states: “Living in seclusion or practising
asceticism is not acceptable in the presence of God,” and He calls
upon those involved to “observe that which will cause joy and
radiance”. He instructs those who have taken up “their abodes
in the caves of the mountains” or who have “repaired to
graveyards at night” to abandon these practices, and He
enjoins them not to deprive themselves of the “bounties” of
this world which have been created by God for humankind.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 194)

 

[daler]

From a Catholic perspective, there is this thing called Truth. We believe in the words of our Saviour that he is the Way, The Truth and the Life. We as Catholics must ensure we worship God in Spirit and in Truth. There is no other Truths (and this is the side we must choose). And we can trace this back 2000 years. It is all there if anyone is interested in the Catholic perspective. The Church is an open book.

As Jesus said “Do NOT be afraid, I am with you till the end of time” (sic). Thus… I look forward to the Resurrection of the Dead and the Life of the world to come.

But for now, we need to work out our Salvation. God will take care of the rest. Amen.

MJ

Martin,
Thank your for your reply and further thoughts. In the former post, as to “those who are insecure in their faith”, I think that you are right on. Such souls feel “threatened” by those who walk in the Light of God, if that description works.
It was the same in Jesus’ time. Those who opposed Him were the Pharisees, the very ones who should have been the most faithful.
I still believe Jesus when He said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” I also believe Him when He said, “Verily, before Abraham was, I am.”
The Baha’i view is that the Eternal One pre-exists, and manifests Himself from age to age in Cycles, or Dispensations, and that “All of the Prophets of God proclaim the same Faith.”
God fashions for His purposes a human “Pen”, as it were, Who is invested with Divine Authority and His Words, whether spoken or written, are the Word of God. “My sheep know My voice” applies. It is God’s hands, as it were, which hold the Pen and cause it to speak. “The words you hear are not Mine, but Him that sent Me.”

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltzer,
Yes, there is a link as well to Hindu beliefs insofar as Krsna was one of the Prophets. In the Bhagavad Gita, the Holy Book of the Hindus, Krishna said, “Whenever there is a decline in righteousness, O Bharat, and the rise of religion, it is then that I send forth My spirit. For the salvation of the good, the destruction of the evil-doers, and for firmly establishing righteousness, I manifest Myself from age to age.”
In the Baha’i view there are two ways to look at the Manifestations of God. As individuals, whose earthly identity is a mortal like ourselves, and an eternal, timeless, single Godhead Who appears from age to age. This connection would be in a lesser role perhaps, but similar, where John the Baptist was the “Return” of Elijah, expected by the Jew prior to Christ. He was the “Return” of Him in a spiritual sense, the same way that we say, for example, the rose has bloomed again this spring. It is not last year’s rose if we look at it specifically, yet it is the return of “the rose”, manifesting all of its attributes, the beauty, fragrance, etc. These are the essential qualities of the rose.
Thus, John could answer them when they asked Him, “Art thou Elias?” “Art thou that Prophet?” And He answered them truthfully, “No, I am not”. This meant that He was not that self-same individual. Yet when Jesus was asked, He replied that He was Elijah, as the spiritual reality and station of Elijah was indeed fulfilled in the coming of John the Baptist.
As to asceticism, this is prohibited. All are supposed to contribute to society and not be reclusive. Service to others is a form of worship, and participation on a social level is encouraged.

Thank you for this information, daler, and the interesting rose analogy.

 

[meltzerboy]

Here’s the link re. Hinduism and the Baha’i Faith:

bahai-library.com/momen_hinduism_bahai

On asceticism::

1. How many a man hath secluded himself in the
   climes of India, denied himself the things that God
   hath decreed as lawful, imposed upon himself austerities
   and mortifications # 36

These verses constitute the prohibition of monasticism and
asceticism. See the Synopsis and Codification, section IV.D.
1.y.iii.-iv. In the Words of Paradise Bahá’u’lláh amplifies
these provisions. He states: “Living in seclusion or practising
asceticism is not acceptable in the presence of God,” and He calls
upon those involved to “observe that which will cause joy and
radiance”. He instructs those who have taken up “their abodes
in the caves of the mountains” or who have “repaired to
graveyards at night” to abandon these practices, and He
enjoins them not to deprive themselves of the “bounties” of
this world which have been created by God for humankind.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 194)

Thank you, arthra, for the link regarding Hinduism and the Baha’i faith. The passage about asceticism might have been written by the rabbinical sages in the Talmud; in fact, I think it was (not the exact wording, of course).

 

[Mickey]

On asceticism::

He states: “Living in seclusion or practising
asceticism is not acceptable in the presence of God,”
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 194)

Wow! Only a demon (or somemone possessed by one) could utter such false words.

 

[flameburns623]

Wow! Only a demon (or somemone possessed by one) could utter such false words.

“The friends of the bridegroom do not fast while the bridegroom is with them . . . .”

I think that’s the purport of the quotation.

Remember that the Baha’i Faith appears to be heavily influenced by Sufi mysticism. The quote you saw is simply a celebration of the constant sense of the immediate presence of God.

It’s wrongheaded, IMHO. It elevates one expression of spirituality while denigrating another. As does your comment attributing demonism to words our Baha’i guests deem sacred.

But ascetism and the enjoyment of God’s Presence are equally valid and not necessarily exclusive paths.

 

[Mickey]

As does your comment attributing demonism to words our Baha’i guests deem sacred.

I do not mean to offend…and I am sorry that you think it is wrongheaded…but monasticism/asceticism is an integral part of the Apostolic Church.

If someone by the name of Bahaullah comes along and says that it is “not acceptable in the presence of God”…then I am certain that the statement is from the devil. He is saying that St Anthony the Great and countless other saints were living a life that is “not acceptable to God.” Hogwash! I am not prone to compromise my thoughts…or the Holy Tradition of the Apostolic Church… for the sake of false ecumenism.

 

[Servant19]

Can atheists and non believers in Christ receive the bounty of salvation?

 

[flameburns623]

I do not mean to offend…and I am sorry that you think it is wrongheaded…but monasticism/asceticism is an integral part of the Apostolic Church . . . .

What I said was that the Baha’i were wrongheaded for their outright rejection of asceticism as a path to God. Precisely because of examples not only in Christian history, but also in Hindu and Buddhist history, of ascesis producing great holiness.

That said, the pursuit of love and of joy in the Divine Presence has also been a fruitful path for some. Your tossing-around of insinuations of “demonic” obscures that truth. Worse: it poisons the dialogue we are trying to have here.

It looks mean-spirited and low-minded on your part. It cannot help but make our Baha’i guests feel insulted.

Insults and offenses are an ugliness and a wounding which invariably close off any chance for a meeting of minds.

Which make it that much harder for the Holy Ghost to help the non-Christian perceive the beauty of Christian faith.

Which render it that much more difficult for the Balm of Gilead to be permitted His healing work in hurting souls.

Ecumenism implies a dialogue and a conversation about the real and significant differences: but a dialogue conducted lovingly and with respect.

False ecumenism pretends there are no differences and, being based upon a lie, is inherently UN-loving. Love never begins with a lie.

I have never said there are not real and substantive differences between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith: I have simply suggested that those differences be addressed in kind and respectful ways.

Which, language of “demonism” does not do.

 

[Mickey]

That said, the pursuit of love and of joy in the Divine Presence has also been a fruitful path for some.

Yes…but it does not negate the life of monasticism and asceticism. By the way, the path to “the pursuit of love and joy in the Divine prescence” is through asceticism. We are all called to be ascetics.

Your tossing-around of insinuations of “demonic” obscures that truth.

It certainly does not. My statement reinforces the truth. The Bahalluaha statement is not of God. If it is not of God…where is it from?

Worse: it poisons the dialogue we are trying to have here.

It does not poison anything. It proclaims the truth of the Apostolic faith. The only poison here is the statement that was posted which attacks monasticism/asceticism.

It looks mean-spirited and low-minded on your part.

You are entitled to your opinion. But it is not mean-spirited or low-minded. It is a statement of truth. It was mean-spirited, low-minded, and downright demonic to post a statement which attacks monasticism and asceticism in the Holy Apostolic Christian Church.

It cannot help but make our Baha’i guests feel insulted.

The insult eminated from the bahai post.

Insults and offenses are an ugliness and a wounding which invariably close off any chance for a meeting of minds.

Correct. The statement which attacks asceticism should not have been posted.

Ecumenism implies a dialogue and a conversation about the real and significant differences: but a dialogue conducted lovingly and with respect.

There is ecumenism…and there is false ecumenism. I will not sugarcoat an attack on monasticism and asceticism for the sake of false ecumenism.

Love never begins with a lie.

And the attack on asceticism is a lie from the father of lies…and you know it.

I have never said there are not real and substantive differences between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith:

That is an understatement.

Which, language of “demonism” does not do.

The devil is real…he is the prince of this world. And a statement which attacks one of the foundations of Christ’s Church…comes from no place except the evil one.

 

[daler]

What I said was that the Baha’i were wrongheaded for their outright rejection of asceticism as a path to God. Precisely because of examples not only in Christian history, but also in Hindu and Buddhist history, of ascesis producing great holiness.

Insults and offenses are an ugliness and a wounding which invariably close off any chance for a meeting of minds.

Which make it that much harder for the Holy Ghost to help the non-Christian perceive the beauty of Christian faith.

Flame, Thank you for your defense, and no offense is taken. There seems to be some confusion here. Baha’u’llah Himself withdrew from society for some two years to the mountains of Sulaymaniyeh in Kurdistan. He did this to commune with God for a time, but it was not to set an example for some who would think it a justification for a permanent lifestyle. There is a difference.
Please review the following in context. There is nothing wrong with solitude and periods of retreat for meditation on the Word of God for example, and to be alone with God. This is not, however, to become a way of life. We are designed and intended to be social creatures, and the illusion that being forever alone and not social as a path to God, rejecting the bounties of His creation, and our fellows, is a myth.

 

[flameburns623]

Can atheists and non believers in Christ receive the bounty of salvation?

It is possible.

But it is not a certainty which the non-Catholic can lightly take for granted.

Outside the Catholic Church, there is no salvation. The Church is God’s ordinary dispensary of the sacraments and graces requisite for souls to be saved.

Yet not every good-hearted soul will visibly enter that Catholic Church

We understand that a lifetime of misunderstandings can create in at least some souls an impediment of invincible ignorance rendering that soul psychologically incapable of receiving the truth of the Catholic Faith.

In such cases, it might be that it would take a miracle of the Holy Ghost to remove such an impediment.

Worse, such a miracle might interfere with the free agency of that soul to make a genuine explicit choice to join itself visibly and sacramentally to the Roman Catholic Church.

In such cases, we trust that, at least sometimes, God overlooks the impediment of invincible ignorance, counts the good life which such a soul endeavors to live by natual means, and grants such a soul the grace of a Baptism of Desire, whereby that soul is joined invisibly to the Bark of St. Peter.

This however does not relieve any human person of the obligation to seek the Truth of God within their own ability as God gives them grace. One can only hope for the Baptism of Desire in those souls who, if the impediment of invincible ignorance were removed, would then join the Church.

And these doctrines of Invincible Ignorance and of Baptism of Desire do not relieve Christians of the duty of evangelism. The preaching of the Gospel remains the ordinary means by which the Holy Ghost of God ministers to and woos souls unto Christ.

 

[daler]

Outside the Catholic Church, there is no salvation. The Church is God’s ordinary dispensary of the sacraments and graces requisite for souls to be saved.

In such cases, it might be that it would take a miracle of the Holy Ghost to remove such an impediment.

Flame, I do most certainly appreciate the spirit of your assertions, but wish to say that in the prophecies of Isaiah 62:2 “And the Gentiles shall see Thy righteousness, and all kings Thy glory; and thou shalt be called by a New Name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.”

Again, in Revelation 3:12 “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the City of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God; and I will write upon him “my new name”. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

If by “miracle of the Holy Ghost” means a New Revelation comes down from God through fulfillment of His promise of the Return of the Spirit of Christ, then such a miracle has indeed taken place.

“And there shall be a new Heaven and a new earth.” is interpreted as a new “Heaven of Revelation”, received by a new earth of understanding of that Revelation, to those who have an ear to hear.

Baha’u’llah is not the physical person of Jesus, the son of Mary, nor has His individuality and DNA. He is distinctly another person, physically and biologically. Yet Baha’is fully believe, and I as a follower of Christ testify, that He is that One for whom we have all been waiting, Who indeed came as a Thief in the Night, when all were sleeping, here and gone before we knew it, for we slept.
Even as John the Baptist did not come down out of the physical heavens in fulfillment of His role as the Return of the promised Elijah, who was necessarily to come before the Messiah, yet as Jesus testified, was indeed Him, so to Baha’u’llah is the Promised One referred to in the Scripture, “Christ shall return in the Glory of the Father”
Translated into English, Baha’u’llah means “The Glory of God” or “The Glory of the Father”
This is His claim, which Baha’is believe to be the truth, even as we believe that when Jesus came, claiming to be the promised Messiah, He was rejected by many, but accepted and received by a few, who had ears to hear His words.
However challenging this may be to the soul seeking reunion with God, we are called upon to “Seek, and you shall find” and even as Christians were called upon to spread and deliver the Gospel, so, too, are Baha’is required to share the Good News of His coming, even amidst those who are certain it cannot be so. Even as Paul visited Athens, Rome, and elsewhere, until he was himself killed for proclaiming the Word of God, fulfilling his duty as he was commanded by his Lord and Savior.

 

[meltzerboy]

I do not mean to offend…and I am sorry that you think it is wrongheaded…but monasticism/asceticism is an integral part of the Apostolic Church.

If someone by the name of Bahaullah comes along and says that it is “not acceptable in the presence of God”…then I am certain that the statement is from the devil. He is saying that St Anthony the Great and countless other saints were living a life that is “not acceptable to God.” Hogwash! I am not prone to compromise my thoughts…or the Holy Tradition of the Apostolic Church… for the sake of false ecumenism.

Mickey, since I’m the one who started the topic of comparison between the asceticism in Baha’i and Judaism, I must ask whether you think the Jewish belief which is opposed to asceticism is also provoked by demons or the devil? It is a particular religious belief, not meant to impugn your own religious belief. Maybe the ‘not acceptable in the presence of G-d’ part is what threw you (which Jews do not believe). Perhaps the Baha’i faith also recognizes that other faiths have different viewpoints on the matter even though it is not acceptable for those who practice the Baha’i religion.

 

[Mickey]

I must ask whether you think the Jewish belief which is opposed to asceticism is also provoked by demons or the devil?

If the Jewish faith is telling you that monasticism/asceticism is “not acceptable in the presence of God”…then it is of evil inclination that teaches you this…same as bahai and baluhallu.

 

[meltzerboy]

If the Jewish faith is telling you that monasticism/asceticism is “not acceptable in the presence of God”…then it is of evil inclination that teaches you this…same as bahai and baluhallu.

Judaism does not exactly put it that way. However, it does say that Jews should not isolate themselves from the world since it is their obligation to actively attempt to make it a better place for all to live.

 

[Mickey]

Judaism does not exactly put it that way. However, it does say that Jews should not isolate themselves from the world since it is their obligation to actively attempt to make it a better place for all to live.

Christians do not say that all should be hermits and/or monastics either. But it is a holy vocation for some. Most are called to live in the world, but not of the world.

 

[Servant19]

Dearest Mickey,

I wonder sometimes how someone who has effectively zero education on a subject or a Person can make such discriminatory, prejudicial and spiritually harmful thoughts (never mind allowing oneself to express those thoughts on a public forum)

I can pretty categorically tell you that there are very few Baha’is on the planet who are blind followers of the Faith through tradition or family allegiance.

I can certainly tell you that all Baha’is are fully aware that the monastic way of life has for centuries been a very effective pathway towards God.

So, ask yourself, why would all these Baha’is (incredibly well educated on the most part) suddenly decide that Bahaullah is the Return of Jesus Christ in the Glory of the Father knowing that the said monastic way of life is no longer acceptable in the sight of God?

Educated people…tricked by the devil…mmmmmmm???

It’s much easier for you to make a prejudiced comment than for 10 million people to be tricked by the so called “devil”…ponder that in your heart my friend and reflect on the fact that Jesus, the Apostles, and the Pope would NEVER have written what you wrote.

Asking questions for clarification is a perspective for you to consider acting upon…