Bahá'í

[PRmerger]

Yes, but the same applies to you and I, and who is to say who is right, or that both might be wrong in the preservation of particular cultural understandings.

Well, in my paradigm I have the ability to say that I am right and you are wrong.

In the Baha’i model, can you say that another’s beliefs are wrong?

There is indeed one truth for all, but do you remember the line in the movie “Jaws”, when the fellow looked back and saw the shark? He said, “We’re gonna need a bigger boat!”
Well, “We’re gonna need a bigger Bible!”

No, daler.

All revelation has been completed. And fulfilled. The Word was Made Flesh and dwelt among us.

One which does not exclude others when they bring their truths to the table:

If what they are proclaiming is True, then they are not excluded. (In fact, even if they believe lies they are still welcome at the Catholic table. It is our job to embrace them and to lead them into all Truth.)

 

[daler]

Very Catholic, this!

PR Did you not just contradict yourself? Or am I wrong. For it appeared to me that you accepted the interpretation that the story of Moses was metaphorical in its meaning, not that His snake swallowed the other guy’s snake…

Please address this. Was Moses merely a greater magician than Pharaoh’s henchmen?

Or was He a Manifestation of God, Who had come to enlighten mankind…

 

[daler]

Well, in my paradigm I have the ability to say that I am right and you are wrong.

In the Baha’i model, can you say that another’s beliefs are wrong?

By your own admission, you say that if someone defies the laws of gravity or states that 2 + 2 = 5, their beliefs are wrong.
What I am suggesting is that we need to examine our beliefs in light of each New Revelation from God, in order to establish truth from falsehood, reality from superstition.
If I walk into a cave with a candle, I may see a partial reality there, filling the rest with my imagination. This is how the human mind works.
Jesus said, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bare them now. Howbeit, when “He”, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Baha’is sincerely believe that the Spirit of Truth to which Jesus referred in this Divine Prophecy has been fulfilled in the coming of Baha’u’llah. I, as one who was born into a Christian family, raised on the Bible, testify to this, even as Paul, one who was born into a Jewish family, raised on the Torah, testified to Jesus as the Messiah promised in the Holy Books of the Prophets.

Is not the whole purpose of the Catholic table to prepare a place for the coming of Him for Whom the world was created? The Lord of the Vineyard?

“And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers? They say to him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard to other farmers, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. …”

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Very Catholic, this!

Shoghi Effendi has also observed how Bahai thinking aligns with Catholic thinking on doctrinal points. I suspect he might have been using a bit of exaggeration, bearing in mind that the early Bahais of the English-speaking West came almost entirely from Protestant backgrounds, and might have brought a few assumptions with them that were in need of shaking. Early Bahai literature in English is quite biblio-centric, and anti-clerical: it shows the lack of a Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut into the Bahai community in short.

An example of Shoghi Effendi’s remarks:

“With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the Kitáb-i-Íqán (Book of Certitude) page 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also 'Abdu’l-Bahá in ‘Some Answered Questions’, Chap. 12, page 73, explicitly states that Christ found existence through the spirit of God which statement necessarily implies, when reviewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph.”

but also:

“We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately. His brothers and sisters would have been born in the natural way and conceived naturally.”
(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 40)

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I forgot the link to my source:

The works of Shoghi Effendi in English and the piece I cited :

, p. 40Directives from the Guardian

and Chapter 12 of Some Answered Questions (the Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of Isaiah).

 

[PRmerger]

PR Did you not just contradict yourself? Or am I wrong. For it appeared to me that you accepted the interpretation that the story of Moses was metaphorical in its meaning, not that His snake swallowed the other guy’s snake…

No, I have not contradicted myself.

The Catholic response here is both/and, daler.

There is not just a single interpretation of Scripture. And, as such, it’s true that the story of Moses is metaphorical. It just isn’t ONLY metaphorical.

Just like some folks are aghast to learn that Catholics believe the Eucharist is symbolic. We just don’t proclaim that it is ONLY symbolic.

Please address this. Was Moses merely a greater magician than Pharaoh’s henchmen?

Or was He a Manifestation of God, Who had come to enlighten mankind…

Neither. He was not merely a magician. In fact, he was not a magician at all.
And he was not a manifestation of God either. He was a man who had been given a vocation to proclaim the Word of God, and submitted to this Divine mandate.

 

[PRmerger]

Is not the whole purpose of the Catholic table to prepare a place for the coming of Him for Whom the world was created? The Lord of the Vineyard?

“And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers? They say to him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard to other farmers, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. …”

No, this is not the “whole purpose” of the Catholic table. It is a partial purpose.

The “whole purpose” of the Catholic table, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, the Lamb’s Supper, is to have Communion with the Godhead. To be fully united with Him. To be One Flesh with our Beloved.

How magnificent is that, eh??!!

 

[PRmerger]

Shoghi Effendi has also observed how Bahai thinking aligns with Catholic thinking on doctrinal points.

All truth is, essentially, Catholic truth. :yup:

 

[daler]

No, this is not the “whole purpose” of the Catholic table. It is a partial purpose.

The “whole purpose” of the Catholic table, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, the Lamb’s Supper, is to have Communion with the Godhead. To be fully united with Him. To be One Flesh with our Beloved.

How magnificent is that, eh??!!

No, you are right. It isn’t the whole purpose, but I think that all religious organizations, while providing a vehicle to carry men towards God and communion with Him are also intended to also prepare them for the coming of Whoever God sends in the future. For example, the followers of Abraham found the fulfillment of His teachings at the time of Moses through acceptance of Him, and they in turn found fulfillment in the recognition of Christ, etc.

 

[PRmerger]

No, you are right. It isn’t the whole purpose, but I think that all religious organizations, while providing a vehicle to carry men towards God and communion with Him are also intended to also prepare them for the coming of Whoever God sends in the future.

It is true that all other religions are vehicles which carry men towards God.

But only one religion has God coming down Himself and providing the vehicle Himself. And that is, of course, Christianity.

For example, the followers of Abraham found the fulfillment of His teachings at the time of Moses through acceptance of Him, and they in turn found fulfillment in the recognition of Christ, etc.

But the fulfillment has already been made Incarnate.

There is nothing more that is needed.

 

[daler]

It is true that all other religions are vehicles which carry men towards God.

But only one religion has God coming down Himself and providing the vehicle Himself. And that is, of course, Christianity.

But the fulfillment has already been made Incarnate.

There is nothing more that is needed.

Until the second coming. Right?

Then that would change the whole picture and present a whole new paradigm in our relationship with, and approach to God, through the reappearance of the Lord and our response to Him.

 

[PRmerger]

Until the second coming. Right?

Is that your own belief? Or do you believe that is the Catholic paradigm?

 

[daler]

Is that your own belief? Or do you believe that is the Catholic paradigm?

Well, it is what I have come to believe, but would it not also change the paradigm for all Christians, even as the coming of Jesus changed the paradigm for the Jews?

If so, in what ways do you think His 2nd coming would change that paradigm, whether for Catholics or other Christians?

If not, why wouldn’t it?

Thank you for your thoughts, as for me, this is most intriguing…

 

[PRmerger]

Well, it is what I have come to believe, but would it not also change the paradigm for all Christians, even as the coming of Jesus changed the paradigm for the Jews?

It would not change the paradigm whatsoever of Christianity.

His second coming will simply be the time when the kingdom of God comes. We already have that paradigm at the Holy Mass. So nothing new.

 

[daler]

It would not change the paradigm whatsoever of Christianity.

His second coming will simply be the time when the kingdom of God comes. We already have that paradigm at the Holy Mass. So nothing new.

How do you envision the coming of the Kingdom of God?

A lot of people seem to take a Hollywood approach.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses see a grand city floating down from the sky.

Then there are those who believe that they will be “taken up” in a physical interpretation of the Rapture, disappearing all at once, leaving everybody else down on earth wondering where they went.

So there is a lot of imagination used in “interpreting” the coming of the Kingdom of God, usually with people seeing themselves in the center of it.
Its always, “Me and the Lord”, so to speak

 

[PRmerger]

How do you envision the coming of the Kingdom of God?

Eye has not seen, nor has ear heard, what God has ready for those who love Him.

 

[Vouthon]

How do you envision the coming of the Kingdom of God?

Jesus told us:

Luke 17:20-21

20 Now when he was questioned by the Pharisees, as to when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them and said, "**The kingdom of God does not come with outward signs to be observed.

21 Nor will they say, ‘Look here!’ or, ‘Look over there!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is within you**

 

[daler]

Jesus told us:

This is very good. Jesus does say in the Lord’s prayer, however,

“Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

and the prophecy of Isaiah:

“Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end”

 

[daler]

O CHILDREN OF MEN!

Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory.

 

[arthra]

In a few days we Baha’is will observe a Holy Day which is the anniversary of the Martyrdom of the Bab which occurred July 9th 1850 in Tabriz, Iran.

The Bab claimed to be the Qa’im (He who will arise) and the Mahdi a fulfillment of prophecy in 1844. The execution followed a trial and death sentence.

The occasion of execution involved the Bab and a beloved follower being suspended on a pillar in a barracks square and seven hundred and fifty soldiers firing their rifles. The smoked cleared and the Bab was not to be seen. He was finishing instructions to a secretary and was suspended a second time with His companion on the pillar in the square, this time another seven hundred and fifty riflemen fired and the Bab and His companion were killed. There is much more to the story…