Bahá'í

[PRmerger]

Many times the doctrine takes the Bible literally when in fact that was how God had to present it to the people of Jesus’ time.

I think you are operating under a misapprehension that our Catholic doctrines come from the Bible.

They do not.

 

[PRmerger]

I am seeking a close relationship with God, and I can assure you that my acceptance of exact Catholic doctrine as dictated by Rome in no way affect my ability to know, worship and love my creator and my savior, Jesus Christ.

But how is it that you know that Jesus is your savior? Where do you get that information from?

Perhaps you get that from your pastor, whom you believe.

But where did your pastor get the belief that Jesus is our savior from?

 

[MartinJordan]

Hi MJ,

Please know I only wish to have nice dialogue, and I know many may not agree with my understanding at first read. I take my knowledge direct from Bahá’u’lláh as he spoke the word of God for our Age. He presented explanations for things our Catholic church has fought over for thousands of years!

I accept communion at both our Methodist church and at Catholic Mass as well. For me the ability for a human priest to transform simple communion host into the true body & blood of Jesus Christ our savior is not really relevant. Jesus is my savior. I know and understand that, but Jesus is in heaven with God in spirit. His “message” to humanity is most important so I don’t know how it really matters that the host is truely his body and or the wine his blood. I do not subscribe to ALL Catholic doctrine as it has been developed slowly over the last 2,000 years, and much of it could use some revision. The doctrines of the Catholic church are part of what caused me to search further for divine direction in my spiritual growth. Many times the doctrine takes the Bible literally when in fact that was how God had to present it to the people of Jesus’ time. There is more current direction to those statements from the Bible, and exactly what they mean for today. Many of the explanations from God tell us that the Bible is not literal in what it says, but in many cases symbolical. The Bible is presenting inner truths through terms and expressions that BC and early AD people could understand that was given to man so he could understand it (at that time and age). I am seeking a close relationship with God, and I can assure you that my acceptance of exact Catholic doctrine as dictated by Rome in no way affect my ability to know, worship and love my creator and my savior, Jesus Christ.

You really NEED to research Catholic teaching my friend. You cannot receive the Lord’s body with all this mish mash of ideas. Stop taking Communion and discern properly what you are doing.

I’m telling you because I am sincerely concerned for your salvation. You are picking and choosing what appeals to you. God made us in His image not the other way round.

That said, I’m a sinner and need the Lords Mercy. So I pray that you not misunderstand my words. However it is my duty as a Catholic to speak up for the Truth. Remember St. Paul’s Godly inspired words “For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.”

Peace.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

.

I’m telling you because I am sincerely concerned for your salvation. You are picking and choosing what appeals to you. God made us in His image not the other way round.

MJ

You need not worry about his salvation MJ

Your Pope has categorically stated that even atheists can attain salvation. Do good first…

The Pope is clearly coming towards an understanding of Bahai theology, although he may not be aware of it himself. The Holy Spirit is hard at work to unite all my friend and ChristianBahai has been touched by the revitalized receptivity to the Truth as is being carried out by the Holy Spirit.

His salvation is assured by the Primal Will of God as manifested through Jesus and Bahaullah.

You are all attaching yourselves to the physical identities of Jesus and Bahaullah and cannot accept the differences. Baha’is have been taught by Gods Word that God does not see them as separate Identities, just the Manifestations of His Primal Will working His work from age to age…

Through Bahaullah, ChristianBahai has lost the lines of demarcation between Jesus and Bahaullah and has fallen in love with God. His love for Jesus has been fortified through his love of Bahaullah.

 

[PRmerger]

You need not worry about his salvation MJ

Your Pope has categorically stated that even atheists can attain salvation. Do good first…

But that ought not be construed as saying that one can deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and still receive Him. This is something that ChristianBahai was claiming he could do.

In fact, what our popes say is that this is a grave sin in which one may condemn himself.

 

[PRmerger]

His salvation is assured by the Primal Will of God as manifested through Jesus and Bahaullah.

No, Servant.

This is a duplicitous lie that you have been deceived into believing by the Evil One.

What greater lie can there be than to be assured of one’s salvation, despite believing false teachings?

I can’t think of any greater one, and that is why it has been propelled by the Evil One.

Do not be duped.

 

[Mickey]

No, Servant.

This is a duplicitous lie that you have been deceived into believing by the Evil One.

What greater lie can there be than to be assured of one’s salvation, despite believing false teachings?

I can’t think of any greater one, and that is why it has been propelled by the Evil One.

Do not be duped.

Indeed!

For we have not by following artificial fables, made known to you the power, and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ; but we were eyewitnesses of his greatness. For he received from God the Father, honour and glory: this voice coming down to him from the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And this voice we heard brought from heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2 Peter 1:16-18

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1

 

[Servant19]

I’m afraid indeed not…

catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

Atheists not only reject the teachings of God, but God Himself, so how can the Pope say that they receive redemption too? Just by doing good…

Bahaullah says that we must acknowledge the Primal Will of God (the Alpha and the Omega). The Primal Will advises that we should “let deeds, not words be our adorning”

 

[MartinJordan]

You need not worry about his salvation MJ

Your Pope has categorically stated that even atheists can attain salvation. Do good first…

Im not so concerned about Athiests. They deny there is a God, so I pray for them. But once one chooses to take the Eucharist MUST know what he/she is doing. CB seems to be a believer. Unfortunately Christianbahai is choosing what pleases himself imho.

The Pope is clearly coming towards an understanding of Bahai theology, although he may not be aware of it himself. The Holy Spirit is hard at work to unite all my friend and ChristianBahai has been touched by the revitalized receptivity to the Truth as is being carried out by the Holy Spirit.

The Pope understands very well about the Holy Spirit. It is only the Holy Spirit that he depends on and the Apostolic tradition. Not on an understanding of a man. The Holy Spirit is hard at work,yes, but anyone can say it, which leads to thousands and thousands of churches with different doctrines.

His salvation is assured by the Primal Will of God as manifested through Jesus and Baha’ullah.

I will pray for his soul and hope God will have mercy on him. Frankly Ive never heard of Baha’ullah. But I have heard and felt Jesus in my heart and tasted Him. That’s for sure!

You are all attaching yourselves to the physical identities of Jesus and Bahaullah and cannot accept the differences. Baha’is have been taught by Gods Word that God does not see them as separate Identities, just the Manifestations of His Primal Will working His work from age to age…

Through Bahaullah, ChristianBahai has lost the lines of demarcation between Jesus and Bahaullah and has fallen in love with God. His love for Jesus has been fortified through his love of Bahaullah.

I refuse to pick and choose but wholeheartedly trust in God and His Church.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

I’m afraid indeed not…

catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

Atheists not only reject the teachings of God, but God Himself, so how can the Pope say that they receive redemption too? Just by doing good…

You mistook this article. He never said anything about meeting Athiests in Heaven. It was all about “meeting Athiests in doing good” so we can discuss closer but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good

Hence: By emphasizing our common bonds, our Holy Father breaks down artificial barriers so that we may see, and love, one another more clearly.

Getting to Heaven however, is totally another issue. Even Christians can be in jeopardy.

MJ

 

[daler]

Look, no disrespect intended to the Bab. This was an utterly nasty episode of history. I hope you understand that my dry humor is being directed at the regime-that-couldn’t-shoot-straight. It is not mockery of the Bab or of the origins of the Baha’i Faith.

The Christian regiment was selected because there was a tradition known to the religious leaders that when the expected Qa’im appears, He would be killed by Muslims. Therefore, they purposely avoided using a Muslim regiment.
However, with some 10,000 spectators watching the execution, including diplomats and dignitaries of several countries witnessing, once the smoke of the first volley cleared, those in charge were eager to dissuade the crowd that there had been no “miracle”, showing them the ropes which had been shot.
However one wishes to take this, as miraculous or coincidence, it is recorded that when the Bab was taken off to be suspended up the wall of the Barracks Square of Tabriz, He said: “There is no power on earth which can prevent Me from finishing what I have yet to say.”
The leader of the first regiment refused to have anything to do with any further attempt to execute the Bab. Having no alternative, the Muslim clergy then summoned a Muslim regiment to fulfill the order to execute the Bab, thus fulfilling the prophecy that the Qa’im was in fact killed by Muslims.

The following is a brief link:

bahaisoflubbock.org/History/thebab.html

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Hi MJ,

Please know I only wish to have nice dialogue, and I know many may not agree with my understanding at first read. I take my knowledge direct from Bahá’u’lláh as he spoke the word of God for our Age. He presented explanations for things our Catholic church has fought over for thousands of years!
**
I accept communion at both our Methodist church and at Catholic Mass as well. For me the ability for a human priest to transform simple communion host into the true body & blood of Jesus Christ our savior is not really relevant. **

Why are you insulting the roman catholics by doing that? Why are you taking for granted a doctrine which is clearly defined in the roman catholic church that you don’t believe in? That being said what Mirza HUssain actually did was to say that Christians were all wrong, you deny the trinity right as a result of your belief in Mirza Hussain right?

you Also know right that it is not the priest that is said to transform the host but rather God? Jesus himself does this? Makes it so that he commands us to eat it, that if we eat it unworthily we bring condemnation on us. Who knew eating plain bread could bring down condemnation on you.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m afraid indeed not…

catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

Atheists not only reject the teachings of God, but God Himself, so how can the Pope say that they receive redemption too? Just by doing good…

That’s not what Pope Francis said.

Firstly, it is absolutely incorrect to say that atheists receive redemption. They MAY be saved, but it is not guaranteed.

And if they do receive redemption it is not “just by doing good”.

Think of the Good Samaritan parable. He was not a Christian. Yet he did good.

That’s what Pope Francis is talking about.

 

[Servant19]

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”

Pope Francis

 

[PRmerger]

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”

Pope Francis

Yes, the Lord has redeemed all of us! Amen!

But the Lord is also a gentleman and will never force Himself into our hearts.

 

[flameburns623]

The Christian understanding is that the Blood of the Lamb Slain From The Foundation Of The World has redeemed ALL of Creation. Atheists and Satan included.

What is not being fully comprehended in this language is that while there is superabundance of Grace in the Atonement of Christ to have redeemed the whole of Creation, yet that Grace must on some level be accepted.

In the case of Satan and of fallen angels, what we discern of them from Scripture suggests their knowledge and insight in the things of God was so completely transcendent, that their decision to rebel is one they will never revoke. They will never accept Redemption on their behalf.

With atheists, as with other humans, their rejection of Redemption is based upon an imperfect understanding. Indeed, many who verbally and/or explicitly reject God’s gift of Redemption accept it implicitly, by living the best lives they know how and by doing good to fellow humans.

In such case, there is HOPE–not a guarantee or an assurance–that God Who Knows All Hearts will count these things as an implicit reception of His Gifts. But it is a misunderstand of Pope Francis’ words to assume that the universal Redemption of all creation implied universal salvation of all souls.

 

[Servant19]

That’s right PR, He will never force Himself onto our hearts because the very central theme behind Gods Revelation is to not remove the basic principle of human existence, and that is free will.

Would we still have free will if Jesus was seen by ALL to be resurrected bodily?

 

[Servant19]

The Christian understanding is that the Blood of the Lamb Slain From The Foundation Of The World has redeemed ALL of Creation. Atheists and Satan included.

What is not being fully comprehended in this language is that while there is superabundance of Grace in the Atonement of Christ to have redeemed the whole of Creation, yet that Grace must on some level be accepted.

In the case of Satan and of fallen angels, what we discern of them from Scripture suggests their knowledge and insight in the things of God was so completely transcendent, that their decision to rebel is one they will never revoke. They will never accept Redemption on their behalf.

With atheists, as with other humans, their rejection of Redemption is based upon an imperfect understanding. Indeed, many who verbally and/or explicitly reject God’s gift of Redemption accept it implicitly, by living the best lives they know how and by doing good to fellow humans.

In such case, there is HOPE–not a guarantee or an assurance–that God Who Knows All Hearts will count these things as an implicit reception of His Gifts. But it is a misunderstand of Pope Francis’ words to assume that the universal Redemption of all creation implied universal salvation of all souls.

I predominantly agree with you here flame

So why didn’t the Pope say this on Vatican Radio?
Why confuse us all then?

 

[flameburns623]

I predominantly agree with you here flame

So why didn’t the Pope say this on Vatican Radio?
Why confuse us all then?

Did you listen to or read the sermon by His Holiness itself? Or did you hear ABOUT the “atheists are redeemed too” comment by the popular media? In my case, I have enough general knowledge of Catholic theology that I wasn’t confused at all: the doctrine of “invincible ignorance” predates Pope Francis by a thousand years so that I already realized that the media energy about the Pope’s remarks were all just so much wind-without-rain.

It was a few days later that a theology blogger–I vaguely seem to recall it was a fellow named “Father Z”, but could be mistaken–pointed out that the Pope was also drawing upon the equally mundane and long-standing understanding of the universality of redemption. To the Christian who knows the Faith, there is nothing new or startling in what the Pope said, assuming the Christian heard those comments with their original setting.

It is the secular media, unschooled in Chritian theology and language, who came away from the Pope’s remarks with a misunderstanding. The media pundits were the ones who misunderstood the language of “redemption” to be synonymous with the word “salvation”.

It is THEIR misapprehension which was trumpetted for days as a new insight from the Pope. His Holiness can hardly be blamed for restating established teaching using the established theological language historically normative for such teaching.

The blame lies partly with the media for being theologically naive, and equally with Catholics and Christian who took secular reports of the Pope’s remarks uncritically, without reading what the Pope actually said within His Holiness’ own context and within the larger context of ordinary Christian teaching.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”

Pope Francis

The needs to do damage control and affirm that not everyone is saved and that theology was officially condemned centuries ago.