Bahá'í

[IgnatianPhilo]

So to the degree that what you believe as a Baha’i that is in contradiction with Catholicism is the degree that you cannot be both.

The problem is bahai refuse to say Chrsitianity contradicts Bahai faith. Hence the bahai will only say that we dissagree on social matters which is a blatant falsehood to anyone who actually knows the differences.

 

[arthra]

The problem is bahai refuse to say Chrsitianity contradicts Bahai faith. Hence the bahai will only say that we dissagree on social matters which is a blatant falsehood to anyone who actually knows the differences.

Maybe it would be more accurate to say we Baha’is believe Christianity has a divine origin but where we would differ with you would be some of the church doctrines and ordinances and that religion is progressive…

As in

Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead. The divine institutes are continuously active and evolutionary; therefore the revelation of them must be progressive and continuous. All things are subject to re-formation.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 224

and

Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 58)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Maybe it would be more accurate to say we Baha’is believe Christianity has a divine origin but where we would differ with you would be some of the church doctrines and ordinances and that religion is progressive…

As in

Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead. The divine institutes are continuously active and evolutionary; therefore the revelation of them must be progressive and continuous. All things are subject to re-formation.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 224

and

Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 58)

The problem becomes more apparent when we examine Christian history and find that it is always in the end the Orthodox pary, which dominates Christianity today that comes out and survives and flourishes. How can Christianity be of divine origin when it contradicts the core essentials of bahai belief? There was never this concept of manifestations, eternal beings subserviant to God who perfectly reflect them and come into creation. The closest would be the arrian doctrine concerning Jesus but the arrians would not have considered Moses equal to Jesus. The gnostics viewed Jesus as superior to all those who came before him. The Christians the orthodox likewise confessed he was greater than all who came before him.

The bigger problem for bahai is that Christian understanding all throughout history contradicts the bahai, so where is our divine origin to be found? You must say either Christianity has been corrupt immediately after Christ departed (because the apostles were so incompetent they could not lay out bahai theology in a way that could have easily been explained to people back then, more so than the theology they actually laid out) or that we later corrupted the faith but you cannot tell us when.

 

[mek42]

Is the BahaAlluh (spelling forgiveness, using mobile) of the line of David?

 

[Servant19]

Hi Ignatian.

You seem so certain about so many things. You said in one of the posts above that the Bahai Faith contradicts certain truths that have been established throughout Christian history.

I am assuming that these are 2 fundamental things.

1. That Jesus was ONTOLOGICALLY God. (Please remember that Baha’is DO consider Jesus as being one with God in an epistemological sense)
   Can you provide a reference to the earliest Church statement or apostolic document saying that Jesus was ontologically God please?

Actually I might just focus on this aspect before we move onto the second item which is the resurrection.

Thanks

 

[Servant19]

Hi PR,

There were some questions I posed here:

Since you were asserting that there was no difference in the Personage of Jesus compared to the personage of David Koresh, I would like to know how you can ascertain that Jesus was who He said He was…

Hi PR, I’m still waiting for an answer so we can move forward with this list

As you have been very patient with me (incidentally, why have I tested your patience?) I am happy to oblige with similar loving patience

God bless!

 

[PRmerger]

I am still waiting for your list of criteria which will very easily tell us who is a false prophet.

 

[arthra]

Is the BahaAlluh (spelling forgiveness, using mobile) of the line of David?

Excellent question mek42…

Here’s what I’ve found in the Writings:

*THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’

THE Breath hath been wafted, and the Breeze hath blown, and from Zion hath appeared that which was hidden, and from Jerusalem is heard the Voice of God, the One, the Incomparable, the Omniscient.

LEND an ear unto the song of David. He saith: ‘Who will bring me into the Strong City?’ The Strong City is 'Akká, which hath been named the Most Great Prison, and which possesseth a fortress and mighty ramparts…
*
[1 Psalms 59:9; 108:10.]

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 258)

This is a reference to David written in a prophetic sense.
*
.The throne of David is not a material throne but an eternal kingdom.*

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 36)

There is to my knowledge no claim of a direct line of genealogical descent from David to Baha’u’llah…

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Hi Ignatian.

You seem so certain about so many things. You said in one of the posts above that the Bahai Faith contradicts certain truths that have been established throughout Christian history.

I am assuming that these are 2 fundamental things.

1. That Jesus was ONTOLOGICALLY God. (Please remember that Baha’is DO consider Jesus as being one with God in an epistemological sense)
   Can you provide a reference to the earliest Church statement or apostolic document saying that Jesus was ontologically God please?

Actually I might just focus on this aspect before we move onto the second item which is the resurrection.

Thanks

You deny Jesus as having the same substance as God the father, therefore he is not truely God. He reflects God, he mirrors God, he acts like God, like all manifestations do according to bahai but he is not God, he cannot be worshipped as God, he cannot have hymns sung in praise of him equal to God. Don’t pretend that you agree with us.

As for the references, I think there are plenty in the bible, specifically first john. That is Jesus Christ created everything that began to exist, me you, the universe, spiritual entities and etc. He is the word who became flesh by the virgin Mary. He is the very judge who will judge all of us. There are so many things attributed to him that only God can do, the problem for the bahai is that they ultimately have to make all the manifestations do these things, despite the fact they never claimed them. For instance Moses sinned and Mirza Hussain was fundamentally ignorant as to what he was talking about concerning Christian history, less ignorant than Muhammad but still ignorant enough.

Heres one quote and every time you ask for a quote I will post one more from the apostolic fathers.

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace. Ignatius to the Ephesians.

 

[daler]

Is the BahaAlluh (spelling forgiveness, using mobile) of the line of David?

1. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh
   “Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in ‘Some Answered Questions’, referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply ‘Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh’. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: ‘…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…’, thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.
   “The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh’s connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike.”
   (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)

“Regarding your question concerning the descent of Bahá’u’lláh from Abraham: The Master has stated that Bahá’u’lláh is a descendant of Abraham through a son of his, other than Isaac and Ishmael, from his wife Katurah….”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 24, 1943)

 

[arthra]

“Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.”

Thanks Daler… I stand corrected!

 

[TexanKnight]

“Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.”

Thanks Daler… I stand corrected!

Is there any proof of this?

 

[daler]

I am still waiting for your list of criteria which will very easily tell us who is a false prophet.

PR The “verses” themselves establish the criteria. There are secondary proofs, such as prophecies, which are abundantly fulfilled by the coming of both the Bab and Baha’u’llah, but it is the “verses” which are proof in and of themselves.
For example, if we say what is the proof of the cloud, it is evident that the “rain” is the proof of the cloud, although we can point to weather forecasts (prophecies) as well.

Although this is addressed to a Muslim, there is reference to Christianity and the logic applies equally to both in the application of proofs:

"Let Me set forth some rational arguments for thee. If someone desireth to embrace the Faith of Islám today, would the testimony of God prove conclusive for him? If thou dost contend that it would not, then how is it that God will chastise him after death, and that, while he lives, the verdict of ‘non-believer’ is passed upon him? If thou affirmest that the testimony is conclusive, how wouldst thou prove this? If thy assertion is based on hearsay, then mere words are unacceptable as a binding testimony; but if thou deemest the Qur’án as the testimony, this would be a weighty and evident proof.
Now consider the Revelation of the Bayán. If the followers of the Qur’án had applied to themselves proofs similar to those which they advance for the non-believers in Islám, not a single soul would have remained deprived of the Truth, and on the Day of Resurrection everyone would have attained salvation.

Should a Christian contend, ‘How can I deem the Qur’án a testimony while I am unable to understand it?’ such a contention would not be acceptable. Likewise the people of the Qur’án disdainfully observe, ‘We are unable to comprehend the eloquence of the verses in the Bayán, how can we regard it as a testimony?’ Whoever uttereth such words, say unto him, ‘O thou untutored one! By what proof hast thou embraced the Religion of Islám? Is it the Prophet on whom thou hast never set eyes? Is it the miracles which thou hast never witnessed? If thou hast accepted Islám unwittingly, wherefore hast thou done so? But if thou hast embraced the Faith by recognizing the Qur’án as the testimony, because thou hast heard the learned and the faithful express their powerlessness before it, or if thou hast, upon hearing the divine verses and by virtue of thy spontaneous love for the True Word of God, responded in a spirit of utter humility and lowliness—a spirit which is one of the mightiest signs of true love and understanding—then such proofs have been and will ever be regarded as sound.’

The Bab

 

[daler]

Is there any proof of this?

There are. While I am not a scholar, I refer you to the following:

Bible prophecy clearly states that the Messiah of the “last days” will be descended from David, the king of ancient Israel. Students of the Baha’i Faith will be interested to learn that Baha’u’llah, the Prophet founder of the Baha’i Faith, is indeed descended from both the kings of ancient Persia and from the kings of ancient Israel.

The well known early Baha’i scholar, Mirza Abu’l-Fadl, wrote that in his investigations of Baha’u’llah’s family line he was impressed to learn that even the “severe and unsympathetic” critic of the Baha’i Faith Rida-Quli Khan-i-Hidayat had admitted in his book, “The Book of Ancestry”, that Baha’u’llah was descended from Chosroes I, the renowned Sasananian monarch known as Adil (the Just). At another time Mirza Rida-Quli, Baha’u’llah’s half brother, related to Mirza Abu’l-Fadl that their family possessed a genealogical chart which traced their family back to “Yasdigird the Sasanian” of the ancient Persian Empire.

The story of the Sasanian dynasty of kings can be easily found in the histories of ancient Persia. For example, among the genealogies published by the meticulous Moslem historian at-Tabari in his comprehensive history of prophets and kings was that of the Sasanian dynasty of Persian kings. It traces their lineage back to Sasan the Great, son of the legendary king, Bahman, and then further back to King Lohrasb, who lived shortly before the time of the Persian Prophet Zoroaster.

 

[arthra]

Someone above wrote:

*You deny Jesus as having the same substance as God the father, therefore he is not truely God. He reflects God, he mirrors God, he acts like God, like all manifestations do according to bahai but he is not God, he cannot be worshipped as God, he cannot have hymns sung in praise of him equal to God. Don’t pretend that you agree with us. *

How can a Manifestation of God be understood as God…in the Baha’i view?

We believe God speaks through His Prophets and that They are Mediators between God an humanity…Some indications of this can be found in the Writings:

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.”
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178)

 

[daler]

Actually, it is the principle of non-contradiction that says you cannot be both.
Truth is what we all seek, ChristianBahai. And 2 contradictory things cannot both be true at the same time. (from PRmerger)

PR Please allow me to ask you a question. If a Jew professes belief that Jesus is the Messiah promised in his Holy Books, does he then cease to be a Jew?

 

[daler]

Actually, it is the principle of non-contradiction that says you cannot be both.

Truth is what we all seek, ChristianBahai. And 2 contradictory things cannot both be true at the same time.

So, either, for example, the pope is the vicar of Christ or he is not the vicar of Christ. Both cannot be true at the same time.

Divorce and re-marriage is either adultery, or it is not adultery. Both cannot be true at the same time.

So to the degree that what you believe as a Baha’i that is in contradiction with Catholicism is the degree that you cannot be both.

There are references to no longer being called “Christian” in the Bible.

Isaiah 62:2

“The nations shall see your righteousness, and all the kings your glory, and you shall be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will utter.”

Revelation 3:12

“Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.”

As Baha’is regard Baha’u’llah as the fulfillment of these prophecies, the New Name of God’s people is Baha’i…

 

[PRmerger]

Hi Ignatian.

You seem so certain about so many things. You said in one of the posts above that the Bahai Faith contradicts certain truths that have been established throughout Christian history.

I am assuming that these are 2 fundamental things.

1. That Jesus was ONTOLOGICALLY God. (Please remember that Baha’is DO consider Jesus as being one with God in an epistemological sense)
   Can you provide a reference to the earliest Church statement or apostolic document saying that Jesus was ontologically God please?

Actually I might just focus on this aspect before we move onto the second item which is the resurrection.

Thanks

fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt

Emphasis on “of the substance of the father.”

And, of course, ontological = substance.

Quintessential ontological concepts include:
Universals
Substance

 

[PRmerger]

PR The “verses” themselves establish the criteria.

Servant said that he could provide a clear set of criteria in the form of a list.

I would like to see this list.

So far he has only given item #1 on this list: “The first criteria is the fact that true Prophets manifests deeds that are a shining beacon of light manifesting the Glory of God.”

 

[PRmerger]

PR Please allow me to ask you a question. If a Jew professes belief that Jesus is the Messiah promised in his Holy Books, does he then cease to be a Jew?

No. He becomes a fulfilled Jew–that is, a Catholic.