Bahá'í

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Servant19 said:
I agree with you in all levels except on the physical change PR

It is when Christianity believes it can out-talk science on the subject of science where it plunders deeper AWAY from God.

You can ask any scientist to observe a cell from my body before marriage and a cell from the exact same body site, after my marriage and there is no physical change.

Superstitious beliefs is where we differ my friend.

If there was a physical change it becomes empirically observable by science and I can categorically tell you that this concept is frowned on by the scientific community.

I look forward to the essay on how science has failed throughout history from you, but this is not even science, it’s empiricism, it’s observable that there is no PHYSICAL change to the body the day after marriage, and even were there to be an argument presented that there WAS a physical change, I would still say that this is attributed to the spiritual condition exerting itself on the physical being.

The physical act is the same, one is done in the spirit of love, the other in the sin of lust, it’s really that simple. Contradicting science gets humans nowhere, it only ends in conflict, and luckily the superstitious believers are reducing in number alarmingly, and it’s for the best…

God bless you PR, you’re heart is in the right place but you have convinced yourself of truth that is utter falsehood I’m afraid 🙂
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Bahai are so scientific believing the virgin birth aren’t they? Why do bahai constantly pretend to be naturalists when its convenient and then claim to believe in miracles when its convenient?
 
Servant19 said:
PR, please read my post #542 above 🙂

That’s my whole point lol

It is NOT indulging the flesh, so why do you need to do it? It’s the spirit behind it that matters. The physical aspect is irrelevant and transient/temporary, the spirit behind it is eternal and everlasting

spirit, spirit, spirit 🙂

(Ps. Of course I know that the quote I gave is not about the marital embrace, your protraction that my providing a quote which you misunderstand the context I gave it for, as a reason to say that there is something wrong with a whole religion was impolite. The quotes intended meaning is about the value of spirit and the true freedom it provides when fully embraced)

Your turn for apology? 🙂
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Gnosticism is a heresy, God created the world good and told his creation to breed, physical physical physical, spirit spirit spirit. Its not one over the other, tis both.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Bahai are so scientific believing the virgin birth aren’t they? Why do bahai constantly pretend to be naturalists when its convenient and then claim to believe in miracles when its convenient?
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“First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized.”

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

Yes, Ignatian, miracles do EXTREMELY RARELY happen, but the world is not the stage for Gods big magic show. The magic is there, but God has given us free will to make choices, the choice between right and wrong, and has given us intellect (remember Gallileo?) to be able to explore the sublime from the ridiculous.

Science is the field of utilization of our God given attribute of intellect. No man made doctrine can stump empirical science. You can point out to me all the miracles you want, but the sun IS NOT the moon, flame me, blame me, shame me, but I can recognize the sun when I see it.

You can go ahead and call it a moon if you like 🙂

God bless 🙂

There is a popular Hindu tradition which says that one day the residents of a hut saw the sun shining in from a small hole through the wall. They worshipped the sun in all it’s purity, loved it and used it to provide great things for the residents. After some time they would adorn it with a beautiful red cloth, attaching the cloth across the hole where the light shone in from

Each generation adorned the light with a new cloth, a sign of deep respect and adoration for the source of light and warmth.

After 10 generations, the sun was no longer visible, it was a nice set of cloths one on top of the other. They then started to worship the cloth.

Baha’u’llah has come and stripped the cloth away!! Rejoice, for true freedom is in our grasp!

…or you can enjoy the cloth 🙂
 
Servant19 said:
I agree with you in all levels except on the physical change PR

It is when Christianity believes it can out-talk science on the subject of science where it plunders deeper AWAY from God.
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It is also when Baha’is believe they can out-talk science on the subject of science is where they plunder deeper AWAY from God.

Catholicism gives great honor, respect and veneration to the sciences.

In fact, if it weren’t for Catholicism you would not have your university system.

If it weren’t for the Catholic Church’s championing of science, you wouldn’t have this list of extraordinary priests/Catholics who are scientists:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_cleric%E2%80%93scientists
You can ask any scientist to observe a cell from my body before marriage and a cell from the exact same body site, after my marriage and there is no physical change.
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You are correct.
Superstitious beliefs is where we differ my friend.
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Are you calling the sacraments a superstitious belief?
If there was a physical change it becomes empirically observable by science and I can categorically tell you that this concept is frowned on by the scientific community.
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The concept of a supernatural?

Well, I can tell you that there are scores of scientists who are Catholics, so your point is refuted quite easily.
I look forward to the essay on how science has failed throughout history from you,
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And I look forward to the essay on how science has failed throughout history from you!
but this is not even science, it’s empiricism, it’s observable that there is no PHYSICAL change to the body the day after marriage, and even were there to be an argument presented that there WAS a physical change, I would still say that this is attributed to the spiritual condition exerting itself on the physical being.
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This is quite Catholic! 👍
The physical act is the same, one is done in the spirit of love, the other in the sin of lust, it’s really that simple.
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No, the physical act is not the same. It is done by 2 ontologically different people.

Take this analogy:

This is a drawing done by a child:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...ZyTdwL8w2pSbSXiNasYrv9XObbI8Q501Rg1ZAj2X84_7w

Now look at this drawing:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Both physical acts are the same–taking implement to paper.

But, as the do-er is a different person, the act is quite different.
 
Servant19 said:
I also urge you to read the works of Thomas Aquinas who argued the extreme limitations of anything to be true “ontologically”

To say something has changed ontologically is manifest falsehood, even according to St. Thomas…go figure 🙂
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Can you provide the quotes from St. Thomas that state this?
 
PRmerger said:
It is also when Baha’is believe they can out-talk science on the subject of science is where they plunder deeper AWAY from God.
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Can you show me a source for this claim please?
PRmerger said:
Are you calling the sacraments a superstitious belief?
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No I never said that…
PRmerger said:
The concept of a supernatural?
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You’re not talking about the supernatural, you’re clearly talking about the PHYSICAL, the NATURAL. You clearly stated that there is a physical difference between the act of love making between man and wife, compared to a man and one night girlfriend.

If there is a physical difference between the two, then it can be talked about in scientific terms.

Can you tell me how they differ in a way that will be easily understood by Richard Dawkins, for example. I choose him because we are talking about purely physical acts, so it should be able to be understood by someone who knows a lot about physical, material things…Richard Dawkins

I eagerly await your answer PR 🙂
 
Servant19 said:
Can you show me a source for this claim please?
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It is a form of a Tu Quoque argument, Servant.

You made a false accusation against Christianity (that it denies science) and I turned it right back on you, in the form of “But you do it, too”–that is, if Catholics deny science (and they don’t), then Baha’is do, too.
 
Servant19 said:
You’re not talking about the supernatural, you’re clearly talking about the PHYSICAL, the NATURAL.
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No, Servant.

I am talking about the sublime marital act, which is holy and sacramental.

Sacramental presupposes that it is supernatural.

Are you at all familiar with Catholic theology on the sacraments? I ask only to know where I need to begin in presenting the Catholic position.

It appears that you did not know that marriage is a sacrament in Christian theology?

And that sacraments are supernatural phenomenon?

I am guessing that you were not born into a Baha’i family, so what is your religion of origin?

That info may assist me in giving me some perspective of how much you know of Christianity, assuming you were even catechized in the faith of your birth.
 
Servant19 said:
I still eagerly await your explanation to Richard Dawkins then 🙂
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Where Richard Dawkins proclaims Catholic truth, we give him a 👍

For example, where he says “The feeling of awed wonder that science can give us is one of the highest experiences of which the human psyche is capable. It is a deep aesthetic passion to rank with the finest that music and poetry can deliver”…

we say, “That is very Catholic of Mr. Dawkins to proclaim!”

To wit: "The order and harmony of the created world results from the diversity of beings and from the relationships which exist among them. Man discovers them progressively as the laws of nature. They call forth the admiration of scholars "CCC 341
 
Servant19 said:
I still eagerly await your explanation to Richard Dawkins then 🙂
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I would refer him here:

catholiccompany.com/christopher-west-theology-of-the-body-c789/?aid=117&creative=12227750558&device=c&network=g&matchtype=b&gclid=COrhqq7csbgCFfA7MgoddGQAYw

And I eagerly await your St. Thomas quotes that state these things you claim he said:

"extreme limitations of anything to be true “ontologically”

To say something has changed ontologically is manifest falsehood, "
 
PRmerger said:
So sad. You have been greatly deceived, Servant.

The PHYSICAL touching of the lovers is indeed quite beautiful, holy and magnificent
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Again you were not talking about supernatural.

The act of physical touching is 100% natural NOT supernatural

I think you may have confused yourself PR
 
Servant19 said:
Again you were not talking about supernatural.
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The Catholic view of marriage is that it is a sacrament.

The marital embrace is a manifestation of the sacrament, Servant.

As such, it presupposes the supernatural.

That is why we have such a rich, deep, profound theology of marriage.

It is impossible to talk about the Catholic view of marriage without talking about its supernatural constructs.

It would be like saying, “You were talking about evolution but you were not talking about change.”
 
So which is it PR?

The physical aspect of the embrace? Or

The supernatural spirit behind the physical embrace?
 
Servant19 said:
So which is it PR?

The physical aspect of the embrace? Or

The supernatural spirit behind the physical embrace?
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Also, could you answer the questions about your faith of origin?

Of course, it’s a semi-personal question, so if you don’t care to answer, you are under no obligation.
 
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