Bahá'í

[daler]

I have conversed with some of the Baha’i faith before asking them to explain the presence of Muhammad in their faith tradition. This troubles me. When I asked about this, their explanation of this was that Muhammad was needed at that particular time in history - even the sometimes violent nature of spreading the message by Muhammad and his followers. This caused me to ponder further about why Bahá’u’lláh was needed at this particular time in history. The explanation given was that his teachings would remain for about 1000 years until his teachings too would be corrupted by the faithful and then another prophet of God would emerge to set us back on the right path. That response had me ponder further regarding the potential of another Muhammad-like prophet emerging as the next prophet. I am uneasy about this religion and it’s changing from the violence of Muhammad to the peace of Baha’u’llah to who knows what down the road about a 1000 years from now.

By the way…thank you for your previous response. Much appreciated.

Dear friend,
I think to those of us who were born in the west to the Christian traditions, Islam has always sounded foreign to our ears. Also, what we have of the teachings of Christ on a personal level are mostly about love and the golden rule, and it is therefore hard for us to comprehend the violent history which accompanied Islam. However, Christian history is not with its violence. We are a violent species, and need to be tamed, and my sense of the Prophets is that it is Their job to tame us, to turn that raw, wolf like nature into labradors and golden retrievers, or at least weed out the pit bulls.
I read a book called Muhammad and the Course of Islam, by H M Balyuzi which I found to be very enlightening. He said that Muhammad and His followers did not defend themselves for the first thirteen years until, after the evil treachery of the barbarous Arab tribal leaders was so extreme, and then only after Muhammad received a vision from the Angel Gabriel to “take up the sword and defend the faithful.” This must be contrasted in parallel to the Old Testament Prophets of Israel, whose very violent defense of the “chosen ones” of God is accepted without question by most Christian believers.
The Arab idolators were known to commonly bury their newborn daughters alive, kill their own wives, etc, etc. It is as though a Prophet appeared during Hitler’s reign, although not by the numbers he exterminated, but you get the idea. To these violent and constantly warring tribes, the Prophet brought unity, discipline, and social order never before seen in the history of humanity. His battles were alway defensive in nature, and never aggressive, according to my reading, during His own lifetime.
However, immediately upon the death of the Prophet, the Ummayyads usurped power from the designated Successor to Muhammad, which was Ali. They had been the Meccan mischief makers who made a business of idolatry, selling some 300 images to the locals and travelers. Similar to when Jesus kicked over the money changers tables in the Temple, when Muhammad returned to Mecca triumphantly, He personally went in and destroyed all of these idols in the Ka’aba, which was the site of Abraham’s altar.
Abdul Baha, the son of Baha’u’llah and the appointed Center of His Covenant describes the Ummayyads as the Beast, and the dragon of Revelation. The 42 months, 3 1/2 days, and 1260 are all the same number, for 42 x 30 = 1260, and the 3 1/2 times 360 (days in a year) equal 1260. This is also found in Daniel. The year 1260 AH of the Muslim calendar is the year 1844 AD, which numerous adventist millennial scholars to this day claim to be the fulfillment of the 2300 days prophecy of Daniel. “Some Answered Questions”, by Abdul Baha explains this well.
I have heard some Baha’is speak of what you said about the corruption of the religion, but it is not found in the Baha’i Writings. I think that they are speaking essentially of the process of religious history, indeed, human history, in its “dance” with God and the Prophets He sends us from age to age. Some follow and accept, while some turn away. Otherwise, there would cease to be free will.
Baha’s believe in “Progressive Revelation”, that “All of the Prophets proclaim the same Faith”, and that this process will continue forever, as the Manifestations of God are seen as Divine Educators, teachers in the same school, Exponents of the Divine will, etc. It is clear from Baha’u’llah’s writings that He said another Manifestation of God would not appear “until the expiration of a full thousand years”. At that time, however, there is no indication that the Institutions He has founded, ie the Universal House of Justice and its subsidiaries will have been corrupted. “This is the day which shall not be followed by night.”
As we (humanity) are leaving the collective stage of adolescence and slowly maturing into adulthood, “these fruitless strifes. these ruinous wars. shall pass away. and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come.” There should not be a return to violence, which we bring upon ourselves when we turn away from God, as has been our history. This does not mean that everything is automatic or by some sort of magic wand. We “must” work towards unity, for “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind.”
“Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven…”, and from Isaiah 9:7 “Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end…”

Thank you kindly for your interest. We are all under the obligation of an independent investigation of the truth, which is one of the Baha’i tenants.

God bless you in Christ’s Holy Name

 

[arthra]

As a child, I remember my Dad taking me to the Baha’i Temple in Wilmette, Illinois. Only the lower level was accessible because construction had slowed during the Depression. There were tables with loads of information and gracious people who shared their faith. As Catholics, my Dad was very interested in what was to him, a new religion.

I remember a very nice and patient person explaining the role of Jesus Christ. My memory has lost the details, but as I recall, Jesus was respected as a prophet.

Your comment “but we also believe in the spiritual oneness of the major religions” triggered that long ago time. Currently, I would like to know how Jesus Christ is considered today. Is He a prophet among prophets?

Thank you.

Baha’is regard Jesus as a Manifestation of God…which for us means He had innate knowledge and perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity. We as Baha’is also accept the virgin birth of Jesus. The term “prophet” I think can have variable meanings to different people some would say Jesus was “just” a prophet… implying a dimunitive status … Jesus for us would be Someone who brought a new dispensation … an independent Prophet. I think Abdul-Baha focused on this very well in the following:

*The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 164

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I think to those of us who were born in the west to the Christian traditions, Islam has always sounded foreign to our ears. Also, what we have of the teachings of Christ on a personal level are mostly about love and the golden rule, and it is therefore hard for us to comprehend the violent history which accompanied Islam. However, Christian history is not with its violence. We are a violent species, and need to be tamed, and my sense of the Prophets is that it is Their job to tame us, to turn that raw, wolf like nature into labradors and golden retrievers, or at least weed out the pit bulls…

The key difference between the violence shone in Christian history and Islamic history is that the professing Christians were being hypocrites because it was contrary to the teachings of Christ. Whereas the violence shone in Islamic history is condoned in the Quoran. Baha’i faith accepts the Quoran as their scripture. Not so sure I can accept that.

The violence tolerated against women directly in the Quoran in particular is troubling. Sure, their is violence in the Old Testament with the wars to secure the Holy Land (for example) but in the New Testament, the extent of Christ’s violence was in reaction to the hypocrites at the Temple. Christ taught about turning the other cheek and a warning to Peter that those who live by the sword shall die by it. But Quoran seems to take the cake by condoning the unthinkable…violence towards women. This is something that I can not agree to and therefore never be Muslim and as a consequence, no matter how peaceful Baha’i faith is in it’s current form, the fact that they accept the Quoran as scripture excludes them as an option as well. I understand that some scholars have interpreted the passage I am referring to as a light tap, but a strike, no matter how light is still a strike. Women are not little children in need of a tap now and then. Christianity teaches that women are equal to men in dignity. The Quoran teaches contrary to the Christian understanding of dignity of persons.

daler:

…Thank you kindly for your interest. We are all under the obligation of an independent investigation of the truth, which is one of the Baha’i tenants.

God bless you in Christ’s Holy Name

Much appreciated and you are correct. We all have that obligation. Thanks for your kind words. Peace to you.

 

[arthra]

Styleter wrote:

"The key difference between the violence shone in Christian history and Islamic history is that the professing Christians were being hypocrites because it was contrary to the teachings of Christ. Whereas the violence shone in Islamic history is condoned in the Quoran. Baha’i faith accepts the Quoran as their scripture. Not so sure I can accept that.

The violence tolerated against women directly in the Quoran in particular is troubling. …"

My view is that you have to look deeper into Islam and the Qur’an to find some of the meaning and significances… Ali for instance suggested that very few were worthy enough to participate in Jihad…also the Quran sets for criteria for warfare that was unknown at the time. So it should be appreciated in the cultural mileau in which it was revealed. Warfare was allowed in a defensive manner not in an aggressive manner and non-combatants were not to be violated. Violence toward women was not condoned by the Prophet.

Baha’u’llah revealed that Jihad was eliminated from the Book of God… It is abrogated:

*“O people of the earth! The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted unto all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book.”
*
~ Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 21

 

[daler]

The violence tolerated against women directly in the Quran in particular is troubling. Sure, their is violence in the Old Testament with the wars to secure the Holy Land (for example) but in the New Testament, the extent of Christ’s violence was in reaction to the hypocrites at the Temple. Christ taught about turning the other cheek and a warning to Peter that those who live by the sword shall die by it. But Quran seems to take the cake by condoning the unthinkable…violence towards women. This is something that I can not agree to and therefore never be Muslim and as a consequence, no matter how peaceful Baha’i faith is in it’s current form, the fact that they accept the Quran as scripture excludes them as an option as well. I understand that some scholars have interpreted the passage I am referring to as a light tap, but a strike, no matter how light is still a strike. Women are not little children in need of a tap now and then. Christianity teaches that women are equal to men in dignity. The Quran teaches contrary to the Christian understanding of dignity of persons.

Much appreciated and you are correct. We all have that obligation. Thanks for your kind words. Peace to you.

Dear friend,
You are mentioning two concerns, both valid, which I will attempt to address separately.
First is the common translation issue of the word “iridboo”, which has roughly a hundred meanings in Arabic, and the scholar I talked with about this stated the following, with logical reasonings accompanying the context of the verse, along with other verses in context.
There are stages in the process of separation from a wife “from whom you fear disobedience”. 1 Admonish them (As you would a child, if she is behaving as a disobedient child or adolescent.) 2 Send her to her room, “to beds apart”, ie, withhold affection from her when behavior is unacceptable. 3 “iridboo” separate from her (not beat). This is the final stage before divorce.
My reference comes from an online discussion over this subject which went on for awhile with someone who went on and on, challenging this gentlemen’s argument. He finally made reply:
"I have a Masters in Islamic studies… A more technical explanation would mean nothing to readers who cannot read Arabic, so I have tried to explain the argument by analogy to the forms of English verbs deriving from the same root. However the most important argument is evident even in a translation: there is a logical progression in the verse and in the following one, which would make no sense if the meaning was “beat” but does make sense if the meaning is “leave.”
The innuendoes of Arabic are complex and subtle. His explanation made sense to me both logically and from those Muslims that I have known. One might, in fairness, raise the issue of “Spare the rod and spoil the child” as an argument for child beating. If, in some households, the extreme is taken, it is as contrary to the original teachings of Muhammad as the history of white slave masters beating negroes, selling their wives and children, or stealing millions of acres from Indians by breaking hundreds of treaties all written and signed “In the year of our Lord, eighteen hundred etc…” If the only think I know of Christianity is from the Ku Klux Klan burning a cross and lynching, it gives me a distorted view of the teachings of Jesus. It just doesn’t add up in either case.

continued…

 

[daler]

Whereas the violence shone in Islamic history is condoned in the Quoran. Baha’i faith accepts the Quoran as their scripture. Not so sure I can accept that.

Continued…

Back to the violent nature of some of the verses of the Quran, I think it is fair to assume that when being under savage attack by people who are “less than human”, the response is not always to offer them a cup of tea. The US response is everything from dropping atomic bombs to dropping napalm and drone strikes from the air, to all manner of violence on the ground, all justified as acts of Christians against “commies”, “gooks”, “crouts”, “insurgents”, “redcoats”, and “rebels”. By some kind of definition, all of these might be considered as “infidels”. The “other guy” has to be less than human for us to kill him, right?"
The violent imagery throughout the Bible, especially in Revelation, consistently talks about the wrath of God being meted out against the evil followers of Satan. Therefore, how can one be divorced from the other. I think the argument comes down to whether or not Jesus, in the same situation in extended subjugation of perpetual extreme violence by evil tribes would have simply been a pacifist, allowing such persecution to continue, babies being buried alive, wives killed, wars as bloodsport in perpetuity, etc. After all, He said, “Think not that I have come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Then the Biblical historical accounts of the warring Prophets of Israel must be considered. If so, then the entire Bible must be rejected along with the Quran. It is perplexing, I think, because we idealize heaven on earth, but forget the realities of dealing with men who are less than men, to the extreme. All of nature lives by defense of the cells, the creatures, establishing and defending territory, etc. What must be consistent with religious principals, therefore, is justice. ie, the “just war”, or the “Holy War.”
Baha’u’llah has forbidden Holy War at this stage of human development. Baha’is cannot defend themselves when persecuted for their religion. My wife’s aunt and her two young children were imprisoned for their Faith, and refusal to recant. The mullahs threatened to kill her children if she did not divulge the whereabouts of her husband, who had served on the last National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha’is of Iran. The two previous Assemblies of 9 members each were all executed. His execution would be certain, along with whoever was found with him. She had a dream that Abdul Baha’ appeared to her and said something like, “Rest assured, all is in God’s hands.” The next morning they came to fulfill their threats to murder her children, giving her one last chance, but she trusted her dream, and they finally let them go. They fled to a refugee camp in Pakistan for two years before the family could help them come to America. The daughter had lost all her hair from the conditions of the camp, but it grew back. She became a dentist, her brother, a doctor.
My friend, Iraj, has a sister who has served 5 years thus far of a 20 year sentence for being a Baha’i. The Baha’is of Iran are not the fanatic “nuts” in the street we see on television, but rather the ordinary, and extraordinary souls similar to ones you and I know.
I hope some of this helps you to better understand that even as the Baha’is are being severely persecuted by Muslims, who are obviously not following the teachings of the Quran, which says: “There shall be no compulsion in religion”, they do not raise a hand in defense of themselves. There is a wide picture to understand. “They shall fall by the edge of the sword” is real and happening now. We are in that stage prophesied in the Bible, Baha’is believe…
Note also that Baha’is continue to defend the “true teachings” of Islam, as apart to what it has too often degenerated into, while being severely persecuted. This would be like defending Christianity, even the Catholic Church, during the time of the Inquisitions.
Thank you, and God bless

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…
Baha’u’llah revealed that Jihad was eliminated from the Book of God… It is abrogated:

“O people of the earth! The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted unto all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book.”
~ Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 21

Thank you for referencing.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…First is the common translation issue of the word “iridboo”, which has roughly a hundred meanings in Arabic, and the scholar I talked with about this stated the following, with logical reasonings accompanying the context of the verse, along with other verses in context…

Does Baha’i faith have a magisterium of sorts to help settle disputes such as meaning of words, etc.?

daler:

…If the only think I know of Christianity is from the Ku Klux Klan burning a cross and lynching, it gives me a distorted view of the teachings of Jesus. It just doesn’t add up in either case…

Fair enough. There is much to digest regarding Muhammad though. It is much easier for a Christian to defend Jesus’ actions than Muhammad’s.

 

[happyme]

I find interesting that IgnatianPhilo makes very long responses to Baha’i comments that are difficult to reply to because replies are limited in word space?
He appears very antagonistic also, not sure why?

Now he says many times the Baha’is say this or that which he does not believe, that is OK, he may believe as he wishes, our words just follow the teachings of The Messenger of God (as we believe). That he wishes to continue to argue, he knows that Baha’s will not enter into argument.

He says and I quote:- “My sheep know My voice.” And you know you are Jesus’s Sheep how exactly? End quote. As has been explained to you before because as a Baha’i we believe that Jesus and Baha’u’llah are in reality one and the same. So when we read Baha’u’llah’s words we see Jesus speaking, when we read the words of Jesus we see Baha’u’llah speaking, as simple as that. And yes it is our belief, as you have your belief we have ours, we leave it to God to judge, but apparently you have no fear of doing so yourself.

Now this gentleman goes on to say and I quote again:- It seems to me the bahai understanding of the gospels is exactly the bahai understanding of the gospels. A product of a post enlightenment thinker and dualist and ultimately naturalist who read the gospels in a way which they were never intended. No father of the early church read them in this way and I find it hard to imagine those early Christian communities, who read it as Christians do today, which were established by the apostles could get it so wrong.End quote.
This gentleman apparently does not understand that the Baha’i belief is following the Word of Baha’u’llah (interpreted as THE GLORY OF GOD) now he may judge our belief as ’ A product of a post enlightenment thinker and dualist and ultimately naturalist etc’ But of course we see our understanding as coming from God. So of course this gentlemans words are both inflammatory and abusive, we of course will never accuse our Christian brothers in the same way he speaks to us.
But it is for others to consider this mans words.

God’s understanding is far above that of the cavilings of man.

 

[daler]

Does Baha’i faith have a magisterium of sorts to help settle disputes such as meaning of words, etc.?

In any official form as you are mentioning, I’m quite certain the answer would have to be no. There have been some very capable scholars, living or deceased, whose work is lauded, but they do not exercise authority.
Baha’is are required to “independently investigate the truth”.
“The essence of all that We have revealed for thee is Justice, is for man to free himself from idle fancy and imitation, discern with the eye of oneness His glorious handiwork, and look into all things with a searching eye.”
The authority to “Interpret” the Sacred Texts of Baha’u’llah was given to His son, Abdul Baha, and to from Him to His grandson, Shoghi Effendi.
What is not allowed is me to interpret for you, or you for Joe, or Joe for Suzy, etc. for this would result in schism into a thousand sects, like what happened to Protestantism and in the other religions. The unity of the Cause of God would be destroyed overnight.

I can fully appreciate what you are saying, but in fairness, I don’t think we know very much about the personal “actions of Muhammad”, apart from the haddiths of various sources, some of which are credible, and some not so. Then there is are the fabrications to deal with created afterwards based upon prejudices and ulterior motives.
About ten years ago I read the Quran, and again a few years later. This spring, I determined to read it again for myself because of some of the same concerns you express. It dispelled some concerns of mine, putting in context what actually “is” in the Quran, and what is not. I get the sense that 90 per cent of it is more or less reminiscent of the Old Testament.
I know what you are saying regarding Jesus, His life, and His teachings. The same challenges were not there, however. It seems to me that He faced challenges of a more personal level, dealing with the spiritual insidiousness of the leaders of the Jewish religion at the time, their motives, and their inability to see that “My Kingdom is not of this world.”
Muhammad’s assignment, if that term might be applied, or purpose, was to build “the Nation of Islam” beyond the borders of a single population. Had schism not occurred following His death, and the moral principals He actually expounded followed, history would record a far more favorable account of Islam.
Again, the Christian wars (between Christians) of Europe stand in similar contrast to the “unholy” wars of “Muslims”. We are dealing with humanity here, as recorded throughout the Bible and elsewhere in the world. Our hands are not very clean, anywhere, no matter what “Prophet” we claim to be following at any time or place along our collective way. We are not an easy bunch to train, wouldn’t you agree?
The Jews caught hell for at least 2500 years for their deviance from the will of God, but have finally begun to come home, as was promised by God. There is a process unfolding, of which we all are part. The Baha’is believe that the One Fold is unfolding in current times, and that Baha’u’llah (the Glory of God) is that One promised by Isaiah and the other Prophets. It is a huge claim to back up, and calls for very sober judgement and thorough investigation, not blind imitation, repeating the mistakes of the past.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…the response is not always to offer them a cup of tea…

Love the analogy.

daler:

What must be consistent with religious principals, therefore, is justice. ie, the “just war”, or the “Holy War.”

Catholicism has a concept of “just war”.

You can read about it here:
catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine

daler:

… Baha’u’llah has forbidden Holy War at this stage of human development…

Would you describe this as a pacifist approach? If so, why. If not, why not?

daler:

…Baha’is cannot defend themselves when persecuted for their religion. My wife’s aunt and her two young children were imprisoned for their Faith, and refusal to recant. The mullahs threatened to kill her children if she did not divulge the whereabouts of her husband, who had served on the last National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha’is of Iran. The two previous Assemblies of 9 members each were all executed. His execution would be certain, along with whoever was found with him. She had a dream that Abdul Baha’ appeared to her and said something like, “Rest assured, all is in God’s hands.” The next morning they came to fulfill their threats to murder her children, giving her one last chance, but she trusted her dream, and they finally let them go. They fled to a refugee camp in Pakistan for two years before the family could help them come to America. The daughter had lost all her hair from the conditions of the camp, but it grew back. She became a dentist, her brother, a doctor.
My friend, Iraj, has a sister who has served 5 years thus far of a 20 year sentence for being a Baha’i…

Thank you for your personal account. I am sorry for the anguish and heartache your family has had to endure. Rest assured that you and your entire family and friends will be in my prayers.

daler:

…This would be like defending Christianity, even the Catholic Church, during the time of the Inquisitions…

I do often think of this comparison. Islam is a younger religion than Christianity by a few hundred years. Perhaps it is not that far of a stretch that Islam is going through some growing pains. The question is whether it can survive this period they are going through as a faith tradition or ultimately fail and as a consequence cease to have a real impact on humanity long term. Time will tell. If the fanatical faction wins out, it will fade into history I believe before too long. If they are able to reform themselves, then they might be able to legitimately compete for converts amongst the world’s major religions.

Part of me believes that Baha’i faith does potentially have the ability to gain adherents. Time will tell if their pacifist (at least by appearance) approach will win the hearts and minds of humanity in the coming Millenium.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

daler:

…for this would result in schism into a thousand sects, like what happened to Protestantism and in the other religions. The unity of the Cause of God would be destroyed overnight…

Could you comment on the schisms found within the Baha’i faith?

daler:

…Again, the Christian wars (between Christians) of Europe stand in similar contrast to the “unholy” wars of “Muslims”. We are dealing with humanity here, as recorded throughout the Bible and elsewhere in the world. Our hands are not very clean, anywhere, no matter what “Prophet” we claim to be following at any time or place along our collective way. We are not an easy bunch to train, wouldn’t you agree?..

Agreed. It seems a miracle for any two people to believe the same thing even within the same faith tradition.

 

[daler]

Catholicism has a concept of “just war”.
catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine

First, let me thank you for sharing this link with me. It is very well stated and appropriate to the reality of our times. The “non-state” perpetrators of war, whether al-Qaidah or the drug lords, is especially challenging. All of the nations of the world need to recognize that we are living in times of trans-national threats, and “must” come together in ways to meet the paradigm shift. It is the same with global-warming, diseases which spread without regard to borders, etc.

“Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind.” Baha’u’llah
Note: I do not mean to excessively quote Baha’u’llah here, and stress the firm believe that the Prophets of God are not in competition with each other, but rather, are on the same team, if that doesn’t sound too trite.

Would you describe this as a pacifist approach? If so, why. If not, why not?

I would suggest that if we examine the development of a child through early years, through puberty, and adolescence, there are definite stages we go through. Piaget developed a theory regarding early human development along these lines.
Where once we had both the right and the duty to strike back, apparently we are at a stage where for religious beliefs, at least for Baha’is, we are to trust in God and leave ourselves to His will and defense. That is, we are neither to recant our Faith nor physically defend ourselves against those who persecute us specifically for our beliefs. There are any number of extreme situations which could be recited in this regard which hurt the heart to consider.
For example, it is one thing for you or I to refuse to recant under torture or death, but what about the following? “If you do not recant your Faith, we will kill your children!” This is what happened to my wife’s aunt. Such means are more devious than can be imagined, intended to break one’s will and their belief in God. How could I, a father, continue to say “I believe”, whether in Christ or Baha’u’llah, if it meant the death of my children. This is hideous. But Baha’is are called upon to have this level of trust in God, knowing that the true life is the life to come, yet not devaluing this mortal stage or our lives.

“Beware lest ye shed the blood of any one. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand.”

As to wars between nations, as the Catechism so well states, in is regrettably sometimes necessary, but there is an injunction towards a collective solution:

“Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him. Arms and armaments will, then, be no more needed beyond that which is necessary to insure the internal security of their respective countries. If they attain unto this all-surpassing blessing, the people of each nation will pursue, with tranquillity and contentment, their own occupations, and the groanings and lamentations of most men would be silenced.”
“A world executive, backed by an international Force, will carry out the decisions arrived at, and apply the laws enacted by, this world legislature, and will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth. A world tribunal will adjudicate and deliver its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system.”
People fear this until they understand it. The UN does not yet have our confidence, but slowly, the nations of the world must bind together in the same sense that the 13 original colonies (now 50) became one in the United States.
It is as you have said, "they must work to establish a just and peaceful order among the nations. In so doing they seek to fulfill the words of the prophet, according to which the nations “shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Is. 2:4).
Also from Isaiah, “Of the increase of His government there shall be no end.” This is the level of unity envisioned by all of the Prophets. We should not fear it, but try to understand what it is that They are directing us towards.

 

[daler]

I do often think of this comparison. Islam is a younger religion than Christianity by a few hundred years. Perhaps it is not that far of a stretch that Islam is going through some growing pains. …

I believe that these parallels are not coincidental. History repeats. We are still the same species.

Part of me believes that Baha’i faith does potentially have the ability to gain adherents. Time will tell if their pacifist (at least by appearance) approach will win the hearts and minds of humanity in the coming Millenium.

Here is the question to be asked. Is the following statement true?

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future.”

For Jews accept all of the Prophets up to, but excluding Jesus, while Christians include Him and all those who came before. Again, Muslims accept all of them, including Jesus, and again Muhammad, in this one evolving Faith of God.
Baha’is are at the point of belief that the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the most recent in this process by which God educates and guides humanity.

Heavy stuff…
Who was this fella Moses? and then Jesus…?? Wow!
Ok… what about Muhammad?
Then the Bab, and again Baha’u’llah??

and I think, “Who am I, in relation to God??”

and I read Their Words and am just blown away… Poof!

 

[daler]

“Could you comment on the schisms found within the Baha’i faith?”

If you have a healthy, living tree, and you cut from it a small branch, that branch will appear to have a life of its own, for a limited time. Indeed, if it were willing (in the case of a man, or men) to be grafted back onto the living Tree from which it came, it would be restored to life.
Each of these attempts to create schism in the Baha’i Faith have been even as these little twigs and branches, cut off from the Source of God. All of the have withered and died. A few rotting leaves may be left scattered on the ground, but they are devoid of life (spiritual), as they are not connected to the Root.
Because we have free will, we can either be like Peter, who himself thrice denied Christ before the cock crowed, but reattached himself to His Lord, or we can be like Judas, who sold his own soul for thirty pieces of silver. Even he realized his grave mistake, then taking his own life.
Some of these folks lived a long life, perhaps by God’s will, only to see the utter futility at their attempts to breach the Covenant of God. There is one Baha’i Faith. In the shadows, a small handful here or there try to assert themselves from time to time, but as I say, they are devoid of life. Just my opinion, but they are not even good counterfeits, and their motives are clearly self-aggrandizement, not self-sacrifice.

Agreed. It seems a miracle for any two people to believe the same thing even within the same faith tradition.

This is the importance of fully understanding not only the teachings of Baha’u’llah, but His appointment of His son, Abdul Baha, as the Center of His Covenant, to Whom all must turn after His (Baha’u’llah’s) passing.
This is somewhat similar to the belief in Peter being the Rock upon which Christ built His church.

Consider, from 1936 (?)

“A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity.”

If you have time, read a few of pages from which this quote is taken:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-56.html

 

[daler]

" … “X” makes very long responses to Baha’i comments that are difficult to reply to because replies are limited in word space?
He appears very antagonistic also, not sure why?"

This spirit of antagonism is from the lower nature of man, ie, to fight, argue, deceive, misrepresent the truth, contrive, falsify, twist, distort, etc. This is what I see, to be perfectly honest.
This is what turns people off about so many politicians during their campaigns, and also drives people out of many churches when certain “preacher types” try to lord over common folks. They manufacture words as snow, for personal motive, to cover something they are trying to hide, and puff up themselves. In the end, no one is fooled (but themselves, of course).
The truth is very simply stated. One has only to be forthright, succinct, upfront. Thats all.

It is ok to disagree about these topics. They are very thought-provoking by nature. I think perhaps that is what God intended, to provoke our thoughts. It is part of our growth, to struggle with the true meaning of God’s Words. We must wrestle with the truth in order to find it, for like the caterpillar which weaves a chrysalis, it eventually will turn into a butterfly, but not without struggle.
But ours is a spiritual struggle. “The truth shall make you free.” Deception and snow have no part of it. All we ask is intellectual honesty, and common courtesy, not childish word games and petty insults to our intelligence.
There is so much at stake. The world suffers. Humanity and its children suffer, while we do what? Play word games?
Is it too much to ask for forthrightness? Just calling a spade a spade here, and trying to be forthright myself, having no time or interest for nonsense and antagonism for its own sake.
Am I wrong on this assessment? Anybody?

.God bless all, and to all a good night!

 

[flameburns623]

This is something I have observed previously but will say again–it bears repeating.

I find a considerable amount of beauty and even truth in some of the mystical reflections of Baha’u’llah. It seems to me a religion worth of respect on that basis, as “all Truth, all Beauty, are God’s”.

This is not a carte-blanche endorsement of the Baha’i Faith. I befriended Baha’i on the old WebTV Baha’i chatroom, and later on PlanetBaha’i. Went to the extent of locating two brief mystical works–The Hidden Words and another work (Seven Hills and Seven Valleys? Seems like something along those lines).

On th’other hand, I am inclined to poetry, mystical reflections, and the well-turned word, generally. But distinguish between my appreciation for such and the pursuit of Truth. This being a Catholic apologetics forum, one expects a bit of wrangling over whether the Baha’i Faith is true or an imposture–with the majority of folks here, having already decided FOR Roman Catholicism, inclining to the latter.

That said: I appreciate the willingness of adherents of the Baha’i Faith to venture into what must feel like hostile territory, to engage in dialogue and to answer questions. Kudos. Please know you remain in my (very Catholic) prayers.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…Consider, from 1936 (?)

“A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity.”

If you have time, read a few of pages from which this quote is taken:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-56.html

Thank you. From the page, this quote caught my eye in particular:

“All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race and become a single people.”

My desire is a unity of faith. You will find this common desire for unity among Catholics as well. Not only in the divisions within Christianity but also for those without faith. Here is one such prayer that we pray on Good Friday:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Prayer#Roman_Catholic_Prayers

Thank you daler for sharing your faith. Peace be to you.

 

[daler]

This is something I have observed previously but will say again–it bears repeating.

I find a considerable amount of beauty and even truth in some of the mystical reflections of Baha’u’llah. It seems to me a religion worth of respect on that basis, as “all Truth, all Beauty, are God’s”.

This is not a carte-blanche endorsement of the Baha’i Faith. I befriended Baha’i on the old WebTV Baha’i chatroom, and later on PlanetBaha’i. Went to the extent of locating two brief mystical works–The Hidden Words and another work (Seven Hills and Seven Valleys? Seems like something along those lines).

On th’other hand, I am inclined to poetry, mystical reflections, and the well-turned word, generally. But distinguish between my appreciation for such and the pursuit of Truth. This being a Catholic apologetics forum, one expects a bit of wrangling over whether the Baha’i Faith is true or an imposture–with the majority of folks here, having already decided FOR Roman Catholicism, inclining to the latter.

That said: I appreciate the willingness of adherents of the Baha’i Faith to venture into what must feel like hostile territory, to engage in dialogue and to answer questions. Kudos. Please know you remain in my (very Catholic) prayers.

Flame, the kindness and sincerity of your words are warmly appreciated and understood from the heart of one who clearly believes in God, as you do. His light shines in the mirrors of the hearts which turn towards Him, and the beauty of the rose is pleasant in whatsoever garden it grows. There are some who pass by such gardens of the heart, barely taking notice, while others peer over the fence, and a few pass by the gate and enter therein. Fewer still there are who stay and tend the garden.
In the center of the garden a tree has begun to grow which has attracted the Nightingale of Paradise which, perched upon its lofty branches, reaching heavenwards, warbles the melodies of the Holy Spirit, attracting the hearts of the Beloved ones of God.
May I share with you, O Flame, the “Fire Tablet” of the Blessed Beauty, Jamal-i-Mubarak, which, in mystic tones, sings upon the boughs of the Tree of Eternity, if you, with the purity of your heart, will partake of the treasure of His utterance…

 

[daler]

Continued

FIRE TABLET

“IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST ANCIENT, THE MOST GREAT….”

Indeed the hearts of the sincere are consumed in the fire of separation:
Where is the gleaming of the light of Thy Countenance, O Beloved of the worlds?
Those who are near unto Thee have been abandoned in the darkness of desolation:
Where is the shining of the morn of Thy reunion, O Desire of the worlds?
The bodies of Thy chosen ones lie quivering on distant sands:
Where is the ocean of Thy presence, O Enchanter of the worlds?
Longing hands are uplifted to the heaven of Thy grace and generosity:
Where are the rains of Thy bestowal, O Answerer of the worlds?
The infidels have arisen in tyranny on every hand:
Where is the compelling power of Thine ordaining pen, O Conqueror of the worlds?
The barking of dogs is loud on every side:
Where is the lion of the forest of Thy might, O Chastiser of the worlds?
Coldness hath gripped all mankind:
Where is the warmth of Thy love, O Fire of the worlds?
Calamity hath reached its height:
Where are the signs of Thy succor, O Salvation of the worlds?
Darkness hath enveloped most of the peoples:
Where is the brightness of Thy splendor, O Radiance of the worlds?
The necks of men are stretched out in malice:
Where are the swords of Thy vengeance, O Destroyer of the worlds?
Abasement hath reached its lowest depth:
Where are the emblems of Thy glory, O Glory of the worlds?
Sorrows have afflicted the Revealer of Thy Name, the All-Merciful:
Where is the joy of the Dayspring of Thy Revelation, O Delight of the worlds?
Anguish hath befallen all the peoples of the earth:
Where are the ensigns of Thy gladness, O Joy of the worlds?
Thou seest the Dawning Place of Thy signs veiled by evil suggestions:
Where are the fingers of Thy might, O Power of the worlds?
Sore thirst hath overcome all men:
Where is the river of Thy bounty, O Mercy of the worlds?
Greed hath made captive all mankind:
Where are the embodiments of detachment, O Lord of the worlds?
Thou seest this Wronged One lonely in exile:
Where are the hosts of the heaven of Thy Command, O Sovereign of the worlds?
I have been forsaken in a foreign land:
Where are the emblems of Thy faithfulness, O Trust of the worlds?
The agonies of death have laid hold on all men:
Where is the surging of Thine ocean of eternal life, O Life of the worlds?
The whisperings of Satan have been breathed to every creature:
Where is the meteor of Thy fire, O Light of the worlds?
The drunkenness of passion hath perverted most of mankind:
Where are the daysprings of purity, O Desire of the worlds?
Thou seest this Wronged One veiled in tyranny among the Syrians:
Where is the radiance of Thy dawning light, O Light of the worlds?
Thou seest Me forbidden to speak forth:
Then from where will spring Thy melodies, O Nightingale of the worlds?
Most of the people are enwrapped in fancy and idle imaginings:
Where are the exponents of Thy certitude, O Assurance of the worlds?
Bahá is drowning in a sea of tribulation:
Where is the Ark of Thy salvation, O Savior of the worlds?
Thou seest the Dayspring of Thine utterance in the darkness of creation:
Where is the sun of the heaven of Thy grace, O Lightgiver of the worlds?
The lamps of truth and purity, of loyalty and honor, have been put out:
Where are the signs of Thine avenging wrath, O Mover of the worlds?
Canst Thou see any who have championed Thy Self, or who ponder on what hath befallen Him in the pathway of Thy love?
Now doth My pen halt, O Beloved of the worlds.
The branches of the Divine Lote-Tree lie broken by the onrushing gales of destiny:
Where are the banners of Thy succor, O Champion of the worlds? 218
This Face is hidden in the dust of slander:
Where are the breezes of Thy compassion, O Mercy of the worlds?
The robe of sanctity is sullied by the people of deceit:
Where is the vesture of Thy holiness, O Adorner of the worlds?
The sea of grace is stilled for what the hands of men have wrought:
Where are the waves of Thy bounty, O Desire of the worlds?
The door leading to the Divine Presence is locked through the tyranny of Thy foes:
Where is the key of Thy bestowal, O Unlocker of the worlds?
The leaves are yellowed by the poisoning winds of sedition:
Where is the downpour of the clouds of Thy bounty, O Giver of the worlds?
The universe is darkened with the dust of sin:
Where are the breezes of Thy forgiveness, O Forgiver of the worlds?
This Youth is lonely in a desolate land:
Where is the rain of Thy heavenly grace, O Bestower of the worlds?

Continued…