BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

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This key phrase is what stands out in your post, Eddie. For those of us who have studied the Baha’i religion closely, from every religious perspective on the planet, and in great detail, have arrived at the same conclusions, that Baha’u’llah is the Promised One of all religions.

One of His teachings is the elimination of superstition and the promotion of science and education for all members of society, including women, even giving women preference in education when funds are too short to educate all of your children, for they are the immediate educators of the next generation.

`Abdu’l-Bahá on Science and Religion:

Bahá’u’lláh has declared that religion must be in accord with science and reason. If it does not correspond with scientific principles and the processes of reason, it is superstition. For God has endowed us with faculties by which we may comprehend the realities of things, contemplate reality itself. If religion is opposed to reason and science, faith is impossible; and when faith and confidence in the divine religion are not manifest in the heart, there can be no spiritual attainment.

If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.
But see in my opinion this is in direct conflict with the word of God. Let me tell you why.😃

No human can have the understanding of God. We are human not divine.

Thing’s just happen in this world that cannot ever be explained. God has such a larger plan for us that we cannot even imagine.

Jesus came down and had a different plan. Faith has to come with reason and history.

Reason because it has to be something that we can see happening even if it is not by natural means.

History because you have to have some valid teaching of Christ to follow. That is why he left us the Church.

While the Church does not reject science it does not need science to prove anything. Faith is a big part of following Christ.
 
*As the divine bounties are endless, so human perfections are endless.
  • (Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 230)
The question is not “when the revelation comes” but when a new form of the religious law comes into force, for the believers. Not all of the Bahai laws are in force for Bahais today; some are in force in Islamic countries but not in the West, and so on. The Universal House of Justice decides when a suspended aspect of Bahai law is to come into force and be practiced by the Bahais.

However I am not aware of anything in the Bahai Writings that says that this applies to the Author of those laws, and I think it cannot. But here I am distinguishing between those acts that are morally wrong in any religion (or in atheism), and those that breach the religious law of a specific community. The latter – which includes marriage laws, laws of diet and dress and the like – are made by the founder and he is Master of them, not bound by them. Polygamy cannot be considered a universal moral wrong, as it does not in itself cause suffering to anyone, many of the prophets of Israel have practiced it, and it is not condemned in the Old or New Testaments (although 1 Timothy says that a Bishop should be faithful to one wife, that rule is specific to Bishops). So I reason that the Bahai law on polygamy (a complex issue) did not bind Baha’u’llah anyway. I think that we (Bahais) have been given these laws as a badge of discipleship, and the Master does not have to wear it. In Islamic thinking this is quite specific: Muhammad was not bound by the Shariah on issues such as the number of wives, the need to give the bride a dowry, consummation being required for validity and so on.
My question has not been answered. When will God put this world to rights? When will evil be destroyed? Will it be destroyed?

It also seems to me interesting that the arrival of the manifestation does not constitute a divine change in any given practice rather the revelation which he receives over time. Does the practice immediately become wrong as soon as the revelation is revealed? IN which case the manifestation himself is secondary to the message he brings in which case he seems to be of little value. thats just my observation.

As for polygamy being a universal wrong, the thing is it was never sanctioned by God. Did not God create them man and woman? Regaurdless if you consider it literal or not the principal is the same and Jesus makes this point in arguing against divorce, that the begining is the ideal God had in mind. Polygamy seems worse by nature as your going to have four wives constantly competing for their husband’s affection and he will be divided and unable to love them all equally. Polygamy is a distortion of God’s creation, so yes in that statement I am fitting Abraham and the other patriarchs into people who sinned grossly.
 
My question has not been answered. When will God put this world to rights? When will evil be destroyed? Will it be destroyed?
When all become one in Baha’u’llah and are under a one world government. Human institutions will save us and defeat evil. It’s nothing more than another utopian pipe dream.
 
also, daler,

how closely does a person need to study a man’s teachings when those teachings deny the salvation offered each of us by Jesus Christ before concluding that the man teaching that Jesus Christ is a mere man is wrong.

when the very first teachings of a mere man dismisses or demeans Jesus Christ, why would anyone want to learn more of that mere man’s teachings.
Eddie, Jesus and Baha’u’llah were certainly men but not ‘mere men’. They were both chosen and empowered by God to deliver His message and they (and the other Manifestations of God) offer the only direct tie between God and His creation.

Baha’is would never say that you are wrong in your belief, we only offer the idea that scripture can have multiples of deeper spiritual meanings than are apparent with one-size-only literal reading.

Baha’u’llah has ‘unsealed’ the meanings in the Books just like God promised Daniel they would be.
 
Well in our belief God has always been providing guidance to humanity from the beginning and this is through His Prophets and Messengers… There is an Eternal Covenant we believe that God will never leave man alone without Divine Guidance.

So it is up to man to respond to Divine Guidance… Man has a choice to respond or not.

In our belief God revealed through Baha’u’llah what is most necessary for this age…just as the divine Message was revealed to the Prophets and Messengers of the past.

🙂
My question has not been answered, when will God bring this world to rights? Will he bring this world to rights?
 
When all become one in Baha’u’llah and are under a one world government. Human institutions will save us and defeat evil. It’s nothing more than another utopian pipe dream.
Something tells me that this is the ultimately unsastifying bahai answer. Evil will forever exist alongside of God who does not patiently abide evil but rather accepts evil as a neccesity for his creation.
 
i do not understand why any christian would give up bellief in the Incarnate Word to follow the teachings of the Incarnate Word’s creature.

the only way the bahai can advocate that a christian do such a thing is by claiming that there is no substantive difference between Jesus, and bahaullah and mohammed and buddh and moses and abraham.

the essence of christianity is than ONLY Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One.

examining the life and writings of bahaullah is not going to change the fact that ONLY Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

a christian has in his or her hands the pearl of great price. the bahai urge that christian to exchange the pearl of great price for a costume jewel pearl.

as i said before, there is nothing in bahai for a christian to learn or explore once the christian hears that the bahai deny Jesus as the Incarnate Word.
 
Eddie, Jesus and Baha’u’llah were certainly men but not ‘mere men’. They were both chosen and empowered by God to deliver His message and they (and the other Manifestations of God) offer the only direct tie between God and His creation.

Baha’is would never say that you are wrong in your belief, we only offer the idea that scripture can have multiples of deeper spiritual meanings than are apparent with one-size-only literal reading.

Baha’u’llah has ‘unsealed’ the meanings in the Books just like God promised Daniel they would be.
Don’t pretend you agree with Christians, its disconcerting. We are not saying Christ is only a holy and righteous man but that he was the only holy and righteous man to ever live on earth because he was the one God who became man for oursakes that we might know him and that we might see that he loves us.

Bahais deny this traditional and always taught element of the christian faith and I wish they would stop this pandering to groups they clearly cannot agree with if they spoke plainly.
 
Eddie, Jesus and Baha’u’llah were certainly men but not ‘mere men’. They were both chosen and empowered by God to deliver His message and they (and the other Manifestations of God) offer the only direct tie between God and His creation.
You fail to recognize the true identity of Christ. He is God incarnate; the Creator of the universe; the One eternal God. Baha’u’llah is a creation, not the Creator, and he is dead and buried.
Baha’is would never say that you are wrong in your belief, we only offer the idea that scripture can have multiples of deeper spiritual meanings than are apparent with one-size-only literal reading.
And why do you assume that the Catholic Church interprets its own Scripture with a “one size-only literal reading”?

Here is a snippet from our Catechism; i.e. “the horses mouth”, concerning interpretation of Scripture:

*"The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
  1. the allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
  2. the moral sense. the events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
  3. the anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87

119 “It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God.”* (CCC par 111-119)
 
Something tells me that this is the ultimately unsastifying bahai answer. Evil will forever exist alongside of God who does not patiently abide evil but rather accepts evil as a neccesity for his creation.
Yes, I would have no problem putting my money on that one.
 
And why do you assume that the Catholic Church interprets its own Scripture with a “one size-only literal reading”?
The Bahai on this thread have been corrected on this, but choose to continue to act as though they haven’t. It’s odd to observe (if predictable).
 
The Bahai on this thread have been corrected on this, but choose to continue to act as though they haven’t. It’s odd to observe (if predictable).
Yes, I’ve noticed that. Considering some of the answers it doesn’t appear that our posts are given the least consideration as to their actual content.
 
Yes, I’ve noticed that. Considering some of the answers it doesn’t appear that our posts are given the least consideration as to their actual content.
Indeed. It’s like talking to a recording.
 
My question has not been answered, when will God bring this world to rights? Will he bring this world to rights?
Let us put it this way: When will the alcoholic sober up and enjoy the blessings sobriety?

Humanity has been given free will. Some abuse it and others, as well as themselves, will continue to suffer so long as the alcoholic imbibes this poison.

Humanity will continue to have free will. What is sobering humanity up, in every age, is turning to the Manifestation of God. When we #1 recognize Who that is for the age in which we live, and #2 obey Him, we will “get there”.

. "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

. They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples. He that turneth away from them, is accounted among the abject and foolish. We, verily, have commanded you to refuse the dictates of your evil passions and corrupt desires, and not to transgress the bounds which the Pen of the Most High hath fixed, for these are the breath of life unto all created things. The seas of Divine wisdom and divine utterance have risen under the breath of the breeze of the All-Merciful. Hasten to drink your fill, O men of understanding! They that have violated the Covenant of God by breaking His commandments, and have turned back on their heels, these have erred grievously in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High.

. O ye peoples of the world! Know assuredly that My commandments are the lamps of My loving providence among My servants, and the keys of My mercy for My creatures. Thus hath it been sent down from the heaven of the Will of your Lord, the Lord of Revelation. Were any man to taste the sweetness of the words which the lips of the All-Merciful have willed to utter, he would, though the treasures of the earth be in his possession, renounce them one and all, that he might vindicate the truth of even one of His commandments, shining above the day spring of His bountiful care and loving-kindness."

from The Most Holy Book, revealed by Baha’u’llah
 
the most important thing for christians to take from this thread is that bahai is a non-christian religion that denies that Jesus is true God and true man, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinitity. also, the bahai do not believe in the Most Holy Trinity.

from these two facts, it becomes obvious that a christian receives just as much of value from a bahai as they would receive from a mormon, or a muslim, or a hindu, or david koresh or jim jones or any of the other many men and women who have claimed to be the final word on mankind’s relationship with its Creator.

that is to say that none of these self-proclaimed prophets, teachers or manifestations have anything of value. they have nothing truthful to add to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
When all become one in Baha’u’llah and are under a one world government. Human institutions will save us and defeat evil. It’s nothing more than another utopian pipe dream.
Precisely the one Jesus prayed for:
. “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven” <<< That one.
“Of the increase of His government there shall be no end.” <<< That one.
" In the last days, Micah says: <<< and this one…
"The mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it.
2 Many nations will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
4 Everyone will sit under their own vine
and under their own fig tree,
and no one will make them afraid,
for the Lord Almighty has spoken.
5 All the nations may walk
in the name of their gods,
but we will walk in the name of the Lord
our God for ever and ever."
. “Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”

. . .
 
daler,

your 410 pm post is simply an example of an erroneous interpretation of the christian sacred scriptures. your interpretations’ errors occur because you have not received from Jesus or the Holy Spirit the authority to interpret sacred scripture.

these erroneous interpretations, that you and other bahai who have posted to this particular thread, are designed to separate christians from the Holy Spirit and the saving efforts of Jesus Christ.

this is not to say you are NOT sincere and believe these misinterpretations, but it is to say that a christian is wasting his or her time if they spend any amount of time studying your erroneous intepretations.
 
Let us put it this way: When will the alcoholic sober up and enjoy the blessings sobriety?

Humanity has been given free will. Some abuse it and others, as well as themselves, will continue to suffer so long as the alcoholic imbibes this poison.

Humanity will continue to have free will. What is sobering humanity up, in every age, is turning to the Manifestation of God. When we #1 recognize Who that is for the age in which we live, and #2 obey Him, we will “get there”.
As you may or may not be aware, Christians believe that human history will come to an end with the advent of Christ’s return. Then we will have a “new heaven and a new earth”. It is God himself who has defeated sin and death, something humans cannot accomplish. When Christ returns, he will rule and then and only then will there be peace and joy among all people. Until then, we live in the same old world, with the same evils that have plagued it since Adam and Eve, as is self evident to anyone who lives in the world today.

This is why it is almost humorous when you tell us that Baha’u’llah is the second coming of Christ. It is evident to everyone alive that nothing has changed.
 
Let us put it this way: When will the alcoholic sober up and enjoy the blessings sobriety?

Humanity has been given free will. Some abuse it and others, as well as themselves, will continue to suffer so long as the alcoholic imbibes this poison.

Humanity will continue to have free will. What is sobering humanity up, in every age, is turning to the Manifestation of God. When we #1 recognize Who that is for the age in which we live, and #2 obey Him, we will “get there”.

.

from The Most Holy Book, revealed by Baha’u’llah
How have you not learned from the scripture that humanity cannot save itself but by the grace of God? What did the old law teach us? That we cannot be saved by following strictly the law, that we of our own selves are fallen sinners who need God’s grace to overcome anything in our lives. God is the saviour not humanity. What do you expect will stop abortion, murder and disease in the future? Mankind by science?

The bahai goal relies on the pure fantasy of saying “men will save themselves.” No God will save us and this world.
 
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