BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[PRmerger]

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 Corinthians 13:13

Amen!

The same gap between the knowledge provided by academic research, and the knowledge transmitted among the faithful, is found in all religions.

True, dat.

However, it’s especially egregious given the nature of the discussion at hand. This 750 person regiment has been proffered a multitude of times as a miraculous event by not a few Bahais.

And, given that there has been some condescension among some of the Bahais about Christianity’s literal interpretation of the Resurrection, it is astonishing to find that this gap in theological understanding exists among the Bahai. They were interpreting something as literal, when, in fact, it is mythology.

 

[arthra]

Well, a few reasons that I’ve found from this thread:

-because he had 4 wives. Simultaneously. That is a profound breach of the marital covenant given to us by God.

-because he didn’t do anything miraculous. It can all be explained away by science.
(Or by the fact that someone misunderstood and exaggerated some events.)

Some things to bear in mind:

First Baha’u’llah had three wives not four…

See:

bahai-library.com/uhj_wives_bahaullah

Secondly Baha’u’llah was raised in Shiah Islam where the family arranged marriages… It was not a “profound breach” of marital customs in the culture He was raised in

Third … Baha’u’llah abrogated Islamic laws concerning marriages for Baha’is in the Kitab-i-Iqan as a result Baha’is practice monogamy.

As to miracles…and this also has been discussed … Baha’is don’t deny miracles can occur but they are no longer used as proofs because a miracle is only real to the people who experience it …

*The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.*

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 99

 

[PRmerger]

Secondly Baha’u’llah was raised in Shiah Islam where the family arranged marriages… It was not a “profound breach” of marital customs in the culture He was raised in

I think that a manifestation of God should live his life in a way that supercedes one’s culture, when culture is contrary to the natural law.

Jesus did.

 

[arthra]

Amen!

True, dat.

However, it’s especially egregious given the nature of the discussion at hand. This 750 person regiment has been proffered a multitude of times as a miraculous event by not a few Bahais.

And, given that there has been some condescension among some of the Bahais about Christianity’s literal interpretation of the Resurrection, it is astonishing to find that this gap in theological understanding exists among the Bahai. They were interpreting something as literal, when, in fact, it is mythology.

The seven hundred and fifty riflemen at the execution of the Bab is not an article of faith for us as the physical resurrection of Jesus is for you…

As you already know we don’t accept the physical resurrection of Jesus and you do… well and good.

See my earlier post on the subject of the size of the regiment

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11202948#post11202948

It’s not really an issue for us.

 

[arthra]

I think that a manifestation of God should live his life in a way that supercedes one’s culture, when culture is contrary to the natural law.

Jesus did.

Well Baha’u’llah did “supercede” His culture…

He was raised to be a Vizir like His father in the Court of the Shah…

He repudiated that culture and was not interested in assuming any duties at the court.

In those days government officials enjoyed all the benefits of a totalitarian regime, and were aggressive and arrogant. These men could, by their very presence, terrify innocent people. It was for this reason that many who met Bahá’u’lláh in His youth were surprised to see One Whose father had held a high position in the court of the Shah, Who Himself stood high in the esteem of all the courtiers, especially the Prime Minister, but Who, although He was expected to lead an overbearing and tyrannical life was, on the contrary, the embodiment of love and compassion. To the orphan He was a kind father, to the downtrodden a helper, and to the poor and needy a haven and a refuge. These heavenly qualities manifested by Him from childhood made Him the object of adoration and love among people who heard His name and came in touch with His vibrant personality.

~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha’u’llah v 1, p. 19

Regarding the Manifestations:

The Manifestation of God has always appeared amongst the most depraved, the most demoralized people of His age, in the most benighted, downtrodden land. Moses came to a people who had become enslaved, had lost their self-respect and fallen a prey to their idle fancies. He challenged both the might of the tyrant and the waywardness of His own people, and both did He vanquish. Jesus stepped out of the lowest ranks of the same people, the children of Israel, who had once again forfeited their birthright, fallen into serfdom, and forgotten 5 the warnings and counsels of their Prophets. He suffered grievously both at their hands and at the hands of their brutal oppressors. But triumph was His in the final count. Muhammad, the Arabian Prophet, rose up amongst idolaters, uncouth and unbridled, who buried their daughters alive, who were lawless and predatory. He made of a people, disparate and forlorn, a single and single-minded nation, gave it law, vision and understanding, and taught it to worship the One True God. And in the nineteenth century, in the ancient land of Iran, amongst a people wallowing in the depths of ignominy, there arose two Manifestations of God: One of pure lineage, a descendant of the Arabian Prophet, the Other a scion of the royal house of Iran that ruled the Empire before the advent of Islam. They had the power to recreate lives, to confer on men the gift of second birth. In the almost impenetrable gloom, the darkness of fanaticism, ignorance and rapacity that had enshrouded the people of Iran, the star of Their Faith shone as brightly as a million suns, illuminating the paths of countless men and women to heroic action. Their call was directed not only to the inhabitants of Iran, but to the entire concourse of mankind. They too suffered grievously, as had Jesus of Nazareth and Muhammad of Mecca.

~ H.M. Balyuzi, Baha’u’llah - The King of Glory, p. 3)

 

[PRmerger]

Well Baha’u’llah did “supercede” His culture…

No, arthra. You said he succumbed to his culture.

That is your defense of his breach of the marriage covenant. One man. One woman. In a union made by God which defines selfless love.

 

[PRmerger]

The seven hundred and fifty riflemen at the execution of the Bab is not an article of faith for us as the physical resurrection of Jesus is for you…

Well, it may not be, but it is often proffered here as some sort of miraculous event.

Except, now we know that it was the result of a mistake.

 

[SteveVH]

I notice that still the Catholics believe that Baha’is teach that Jesus was a mere man.

No. We understand that you believe he was a Manifestation of God, and was therefore important to the people of his dispensation, and then it was Muhammad’s turn and then it was Baha’u’llah’s turn. It is when you make Baha’u’llah equal to or superior to Christ that we begin to understand what you mean by “Manifestation of God”. This is a clear denial of the very foundation of Christianity because it denies the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Baha’u’llah is dead in the ground. We, having received the fullness of truth from the Apostles, know that Baha’u’llah could not be the second coming of Christ for that reason alone. Jesus is risen, body and soul, complete and entire, and glorious. It would be impossible for Jesus to die a second time, not to mention no resurrection.

I notice that still the Catholics believe that Baha’is teach that Jesus was not the Second Person in the Trinity.

I have no idea what you believe about the Trinity. But I am just guessing that it is going to be different then the Christian view.

I notice that still the Catholics want to know what is new about the Bahai Faith in terms of what it brings to the world. I wrote a bullet pointed post 15 or so pages ago, not one response

I think I responded. As I recall, my responses were:

Nothing unique.

Nothing unique.

Nothing unique.

Or something along those lines. But you are correct, I still have seen nothing new that the Baha’i faith has brought to the world. Community building; the idea of a global government (bad idea, until Christ comes, by the way), salvation through human institutions… Not only is there nothing new, but some of it sounds pretty dangerous to me.

Do the Catholics read “any” of the Bahai posts?

I read everyone of them. I will admit that my eyes begin to glaze over with the endless quotes of flowery language which one must cut through with a machete in order to find the substance. But I certainly read every word of the actual poster. Is there anything I have missed to which you would like me to respond?

I truly mean no offense, but its kind of like:

Non-Baha’i: “God bless you.”

Baha’i: “May the Day Spring of the Ages enshroud you with his wisdom and may the heaven of your consciousness be filled with the resplendent radiance of He who is without beginning or end.”

 

[daler]

However, it’s especially egregious given the nature of the discussion at hand. This 750 person regiment has been proffered a multitude of times as a miraculous event by not a few Bahais.

. Whether regarded by some as either miraculous or remarkable or coincidental, the context of the execution, regardless of how many soldiers were in the regiment, is not the issue for the Baha’is. Before being taken from His prison cell, He told His captors: “There is no power on earth which can prevent me from finishing what I have yet to say”, that is, to His amanuensis who was recording His last statements.
. He was then taken from His cell, suspended by ropes according to all accounts, and the regiment fired. When the smoke cleared, the Bab was gone, finally found calmly finishing His conversation with His amanuensis. At the conclusion of which, He told His captors, “You may now do with Me as you wish.”

. What is also remarkable from an Islamic, specifically Shiah perspective, is that their own prophecies had forewarned them that when the Promised Qaim appeared, His enemies would be the Islamic clergy and the divines, and that He would be executed by Muslims. Knowing this, they first used an Armenian Christian regiment to execute the Bab, but it failed to kill him, severing the ropes which bound Him instead.
. As the Christian regiment would have nothing further to do with the execution of One they regarded as innocent, they left the scene. The authorities now had no choice but to bring in the Muslim regiment, suspending the Bab midway up the wall in the barracks square of Tabriz. Both His body and that of Anis were riddled with bullets before a crowd some estimate to be 10,000 onlookers, including dignitaries of various lands.

. It is easy to simply be skeptical and doubt such accounts. That is not the issue. Rather, what is of greater importance is to move on with dialogue instead of obsessing on whether there were 750, or 600, or a lesser number. None of this really matters. What matters is that the proofs establishing the Bab and Baha’u’llah are numerous and when one objectively reviews such evidence and is convinced, then any and all lesser arguments are irrelevant.

. When I have referred to proofs, which were requested of me, the posts were skipped over, for no one can answer them.

 

[PRmerger]

It is easy to simply be skeptical and doubt such accounts.

How do you interpret these events as literally occurring? Maybe it’s just a mythological account. A symbolic account. But it never actually, literally happened.

 

[PRmerger]

It is easy to simply be skeptical and doubt such accounts.

I fully respect your right to believe in the literal interpretation of events, for the story is indeed told in such a way as to lead one in that direction. It is the “obvious” way of looking at it.

People do have a need for mythical, larger than life scenarios.

.
.
.
.
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I fully respect your right to believe in the literal interpretation of events, for the story is indeed told in such a way as to lead one in that direction. It is the “obvious” way of looking at it.

. People have a need for the mythical, larger than life scenarios, and other people fill that need.

 

[daler]

How do you interpret these events as literally occurring? Maybe it’s just a mythological account. A symbolic account. But it never actually, literally happened.

This is childish, not serious discussion, with which one entertains oneself, and quite pointless. None of these things are to the point, but mere diversions constructed to avoid what is in fact relevant. If one is interested in “proofs” which, once established, supersedes all lesser arguments. We should get on with discussing them, or find another pastime.

. As to prophecies relevant to the establishment of Jesus as Messiah, there are many, and there are also many relevant in the establishment of both the Bab and Baha’u’llah as actually being the Promised Messengers of God for this day, foretold in all the Holy Books. What exceeds such proofs, however clear and evident they are, are the words of these blessed Souls, whom some will always ridicule, even as they ridiculed Those Who came before.

. “The evidence set forth by God can never be compared
with the evidences produced by any one of the peoples and
kindreds of the earth; and beyond a shadow of doubt no
evidence is set forth by God save through the One Who is
appointed as His supreme Testimony. Moreover, the proof
of revealed verses doth, alone and of itself, conclusively
demonstrate the utter impotence of all created things on
earth, for this is a proof which hath proceeded from God
and shall endure until the Day of Resurrection.
And if anyone should reflect on the appearance of this
Tree, he will undoubtedly testify to the loftiness of the
Cause of God. For if one from whose life only twenty-four
years have passed, and who is devoid of those sciences
wherein all are learned, now reciteth verses after such
fashion without thought or hesitation, writes a thousand
verses of prayer in the course of five hours without pause
of the pen, and produceth commentaries and learned
treatises on such lofty themes as the true understanding of
God and of the oneness of His Being, in a manner which
doctors and philosophers confess surpasseth their power of
understanding, then there is no doubt that all that hath
been manifested is divinely inspired. Notwithstanding their
life-long diligent study, what pains do these divines take
when writing a single line in Arabic! Yet after such efforts
the result is but words which are unworthy of mention.
All these things are for a proof unto the people; otherwise
the religion of God is too mighty and glorious for anyone
to comprehend through aught but itself; rather by it all else
is understood.”

page 109, Selections from the Writings of the Bab

 

[SteveVH]

When I have referred to proofs, which were requested of me, the posts were skipped over, for no one can answer them.

I answered your post and you have failed to further defend it. Here is post #810 in which I responded:

I asked you to give historical verification of a great event of Baha’u’llah; the same test that you require of Jesus’ miracles as stated in the Christian Scriptures. Unless I have missed something, you have provided nothing but stories from the Baha’i community and Baha’i sources. Where is the outside, independent verification that you require from Christians?

You had nothing that was not from a Baha’i source. No independent historical verification. To have a Baha’i faithful proclaim that they knew non-Baha’i’s who believed doesn’t quite cut it.

 

[daler]

I answered your post and you have failed to further defend it.

.

Steve,
. Here is what I posted in response to your question about what is “new” in the Baha’i Revelation. Please follow it carefully to its conclusion. It was a sincere effort to answer your question with as much relevance as I could focus on it from my perspective, at least as a beginning for some new direction.

Thank you for your time, which I do not take for granted, Steve. May we all engage in productive dialogue.

. . At the heart of Baha’i belief is the concept of “progressive revelation”, that “All of the Prophets proclaim the same Faith”.

. There are successive stages in the spiritual evolution of humanity which release latent forces according to the times and capacities. The Baha’i view is that at the time of Abraham, for example, the concept of “One God” was essential for humanity, which was immersed in idol worship, to grasp. (This is just a rough sketch)

. At the time of Moses, a further stage of the development of the spiritual community was effected through His revelation of Laws and Commandments which had not been revealed at the time of Abraham, Who had laid the foundation upon which Moses built.

. When Jesus appeared, humanity had digested the Message of Moses, and Abraham before Him, and it was time for a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit and a new Covenant of God was given to men, yet none of the previous prophets were discarded or their positions denied.

. At the appearance of Muhammad a reassertion of the One God of Abraham was asserted and He spoke of a single nation of believers which encompassed a broad array of humanity, transcending limited tribal identities. (again, this is a very rough sketch)

. When the Bab appeared, He announced that the “Prophetic Cycle” which had begun at the time of Adam and extended through the dispensation of Muhammad had ended, in the year 1260 AH, which date is prophesied by Daniel as time, times and a half, referred to by Elias in James 5:17 as 3 1/2 years, and again in Revelation 11:2 and 11:3 as 42 months, a thousand two hundred and threescore days, and Rev 11:11 as 3 days and a half.

. All of these numbers have the same meaning, that is, time is 360, times is 720, and a half is 180, which totals 1260. Three and a half days is 3 X 360 plus 180 = 1260. Again, 42 months of 30 days = 1260.

. The conclusion of the Prophetic Cycle began the Cycle of Fulfillment of all that had been promised about the Day of God foretold in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Holy Books. The Bab was the Gate between these two Cycles, the one closing, the other beginning.

. Baha’u’llah appeared in the year 1280 AH, which number is referred to by Daniel, and is the same year as 1290, also referred to by Daniel, being 1290 years after the declaration of Muhammad. Christ refers us to Daniel for His Second Coming, and cannot be dismissed. That these numbers equate to the prophesies of Daniel, Elias, and Revelation and fit precisely the calendar of Islam automatically sheds light upon the reality of Muhammad.

. So what is unique about the coming of Baha’u’llah is that the day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd promised in all the Holy Books is now the stage in which we find ourselves. The Baha’is recognize this and witness the gathering of all nations and religions into this One Fold.

. The previous religions have all been a part of this process of gathering people together, but in gradual stages throughout the course of human history. So what is unique is not the Baha’i Faith per se, for all religions are a part of this process, but rather that its function is to fulfill that which the Lord of Hosts has summoned mankind to finally become: united as the servants of One God, no longer separated by nation and religions in their separate sub-strata of former stages and identities.

Note: 1260 AH is 1844 AD. 1280 AH is 1863 AD.

1844 AD (1260 AH) is 2300 years from the rebuilding of Jerusalem under Artaxerxes, mentioned by Daniel, whose vision took place in Elam (SW Persia)

Jeremiah said “The Lord shall set His throne in Elam”

The Bab appeared in Elam in 1844 AD, or 1260 AH

Baha’u’llah is also from Persian, appearing in 1863 AD, or 1280 AH

Jesus was crucified, or “cut off”, at the end of 70 weeks, or 490 years, from the beginning of the 2300 days of Daniel, or 457 BC, set for the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

Thus, all of these numbers fit precisely into multiple time and place prophecies.

Additional time and place prophecies confirm these conclusions and are verifiable to all who seek to discover for themselves their meaning and natural outcome.

 

[PRmerger]

This is childish, not serious discussion, with which one entertains oneself, and quite pointless.

I fail to see how this is childish. Is it not the very same argument you have used here?

You have said, over and over again, that rational people ought to be very skeptical of literal events that defy reason.

Why is it permissible for you to use this argument, but when I posit the same argument to you, it is now “childish” and “not serious discussion.”

 

[SteveVH]

Moreover, the proof
of revealed verses doth, alone and of itself, conclusively
demonstrate the utter impotence of all created things on
earth, for this is a proof which hath proceeded from God
and shall endure until the Day of Resurrection.

May I ask what the “Day of Resurrection” is all about?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. Here is what I posted in response to your question about what is “new” in the Baha’i Revelation. Please follow it carefully to its conclusion. It was a sincere effort to answer your question with as much relevance as I could focus on it from my perspective, at least as a beginning for some new direction.

Thank you for your time, which I do not take for granted, Steve. May we all engage in productive dialogue.

At the heart of Baha’i belief is the concept of “progressive revelation”, that “All of the Prophets proclaim the same Faith”.

I am sorry, but I refuse to play number games with Biblical texts. I have seen it done by more than a few people. I am, however, aware of the general concept of “progressive revelation” which you espouse. We would agree that God was progressively revealed by the prophets of the Old Testament. But where we differ is huge. We believe Jesus is the fullness of God’s revelation to mankind. What was given to us in parts in the past is now given all at once in Jesus Christ. He is God’s only Word. To look to anyone other than Christ is to deny who he really is.

So what is unique about the coming of Baha’u’llah is that the day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd promised in all the Holy Books is now the stage in which we find ourselves. The Baha’is recognize this and witness the gathering of all nations and religions into this One Fold.

The day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd is now the stage in which we find ourselves? You can’t be serious. None of this is true! We are not witnessing the gathering of all nations into one fold. We are witnessing the opposite. We are witnessing brutal violence; nation against nation; the slaughter of innocents through war and abortion and every other evil imaginable. How can you actually believe this?

 

[Servant19]

Just so you know, you are using the phrase “beg the question” incorrectly.

What you mean, I presume, is to say, “prompts the question”.

Begging the question is actually a philosophical term which is a fallacy in which one assumes the point that one is arguing.

See here for more info:

philosophy.avemaria.edu/post/29691374480/begging-the-question-vs-raising-the-question

Thankyou PR. English is not my mother tongue, so I appreciate any tips on ways I can improve it

 

[Servant19]

I think that a manifestation of God should live his life in a way that supercedes one’s culture, when culture is contrary to the natural law.

No actually, if One is a Representative of God, He decides what is and is not sinful. In the past this has often been specific to a population. Muhammad provided the setting for sin in the Arabian culture and as a result His Teachings decide right from wrong, UNTIL, God provides a new Revelation with new Laws.

Jesus ate kosher meat I am sure. He was still part of that culture. There may well be a point in the future when the consumption of ANY animal meat would be considered cruel and sinful.

When God revealed His Laws through Baha’u’llah, the Law of polygamy was abrogated. This principle will be carried forward as the Dispensations of God’s Holy Faith moves from one Revelation and Law to another…

Jesus did.

I have no doubt that Jesus was sinless in His time and in His culture, as was Baha’u’llah

 

[Servant19]

Well, it may not be, but it is often proffered here as some sort of miraculous event.

Except, now we know that it was the result of a mistake.

What mistake are you talking about PR?

I’m intriqued to know where you are going with your thinking…