BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[daler]

I am sorry, but I refuse to play number games with Biblical texts. I have seen it done by more than a few people. I am, however, aware of the general concept of “progressive revelation” which you espouse. We would agree that God was progressively revealed by the prophets of the Old Testament. But where we differ is huge. We believe Jesus is the fullness of God’s revelation to mankind. What was given to us in parts in the past is now given all at once in Jesus Christ. He is God’s only Word. To look to anyone other than Christ is to deny who he really is.

The day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd is now the stage in which we find ourselves? You can’t be serious. None of this is true! We are not witnessing the gathering of all nations into one fold. We are witnessing the opposite. We are witnessing brutal violence; nation against nation; the slaughter of innocents through war and abortion and every other evil imaginable. How can you actually believe this?

Steve,
. In a very general sense, let us approach the idea of “progressive revelation” a step at a time. In the Old Testament we have a very simple construct beginning with Adam, followed by Abraham, Who essentially introduced “monotheism” amongst the idolatrous people of Ur of Chaldea, and He was given by God certain promises concerning His sons Isaac and Ishmael, both of whom were to become “great nations”.

. From a Jewish standpoint, Isaac seems most important, for their heritage primarily stems from Him, and the various Prophets, besides Moses, were a continuous thread of God’s guidance for them as a people.

. From a Christian standpoint, although the Jews reject Christ as a continuation of “progressive revelation”, if we can continue to use that term, the Christians believe Him to be an essential Figure stemming from all that had been since the days of Adam.

. From a Muslim point of view, although both Jews and Christians hold the line of Prophethood only so far as Moses and Jesus, respectively, Muhammad is yet another essential Figure stemming from the previous, accepting all of those Prophets Who came before Him, and this process of “progressive revelation” further unfolded through fulfillment of the Covenant God made with Abraham through Ishmael, indeed making a “great nation” of them contiguous to the whole.

. . These three “legs” or branches emerging from Abraham, the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, are regarded as a single process, from the Baha’i perspective, their fundamental parts part of a “whole” yet to be merged into a single “Fold”, which was to be achieved by the coming of “One Shepherd”, Whom all foretold, variously as “The Lord of Hosts”, the “Return of Christ”, and the “Mihdi”.

. While I appreciate that you are not so familiar with the time prophecies from each of these seemingly separate religions, all three of them agree with absolute precision to those of us who have taken the time to study them in detail. There is nothing to be gained by “snowing” anyone in this assertion, so we must simply accept that the information is there to be had by such of those as have a desire to look further.

. From a purely prophetic standpoint, all point to the coming of two Figures, one heralding the other, at which time this process of “progressive revelation” continues in perfect synchronicity with the previous “three gears”, shall we say, shifting into the next gears, highway and overdrive, if you will, for those who are hanging onto this ride. In another thousand, or thousands, of years, a further shift will occur, according to Baha’i views of the nature of progressive revelation as revealed by both the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

. What seems to be missed is the understanding that the “Word” expresses Itself from Age to Age in conformity with God’s Will, not man’s, and that in each Age there are those who recognize the Word as having once again been spoken by the Mouth of God, while the majority are still clinging to the outward Form of the former Age, whether in the Person of Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad. No doubt that in a thousand(s) years there will still be Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even Baha’is clinging to their understanding of progressive revelation having never shifted out of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th gear when the 6th and 7th come along.

. In each stage people have certain expectations which are not met, for which reason they reject the current Messenger of God. Jesus did not fulfill the outward expectation of the Jews, even to this day, rejecting Him despite enormous evidence of Him being the promised Messiah. Most will refuse to even examine the subject, or if they do, but superficially, then proceeding to dismiss the evidence as insubstantial. Similarly, most Jews and Christians dismissed Muhammad, etc.

. The expectations of the “Return” are firecrackers and magic, super presto, instant gratification, according to the imagery of vision recorded in the Holy Books. How could we be now living in the Day of God foretold when there doesn’t appear to be enough magic involved to satisfy our hunger or presto to appease our thirst for “signs and wonders”? Why? in the name of God, doesn’t “He” do this and do that, like “I” expect Him to? Who does He think He is, anyway?!??!! GOD???

continued…

 

[daler]

The day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd is now the stage in which we find ourselves? You can’t be serious. None of this is true! We are not witnessing the gathering of all nations into one fold. We are witnessing the opposite. We are witnessing brutal violence; nation against nation; the slaughter of innocents through war and abortion and every other evil imaginable. How can you actually believe this?

continued…

. Even as the spread of the religion of Abraham was slow and tedious, with test after test, and the same with Moses, with the Jews “getting it wrong” and being chastised for thousands of years before finally being sent “home” to Israel, as promised, they still do not recognize Christ.

. Even as the religion of Jesus was spread by word of mouth, soul to soul, for 1800 plus years before it finally was spread to all the nations, despite the desire to think otherwise according to the “laws of magic” and everything people expect Jesus Christ Superstar to do for them (no blaspheme intended), the world is still in bad shape after 2000 years.

. Even as the religion of Muhammad has had 1400 years to accomplish its mission, people continue to be at war with each other, despite the promises of Islam that when the Mihdi appears, He will make everything right. They also expect the Return of Christ, by the way, although they deny the coming of any Messenger of God after Muhammad, the “Seal of the Prophets”. So how is it possible for anyone to fulfill their expectations when nobody is allowed to do that?

. Do you see how “nuts” this all is after awhile???

. So when another little baby Prophet is born into the world, just the same way every other little baby Prophet has been born into the world, its a perfect “disguise”, don’t ya know. It means that “we” have got to figure it out. It means that its on “us”, to sort out the Sun Myung Moons and the David Khoresh or Joseph Smith or E.G. Whites from the real deal. Dang! Why does God have to make it so hard on us, anyway?

. Is it possible that the answers to our questions come not as firecrackers in the sky, but Words uttered by yet another Prophet of God Whom most men will reject, even as they rejected every other Prophet gone before Him? I mean, Who does God think He is anyway???!!!

. Doe He actually expect us to do some homework? Do you mean I have to use my brain?? Awe… Come on… ;-( What kind of God is that anyway?!? Why doesn’t He just do like Burger King and say: “Have it your way, kid…”

. One Fold… One Shepherd… I mean, Really… Everybody “knows” that when He shows up again, “I” will be the first to know… Certainly it won’t be some yoyo on the other end of the internet, right? …

. And… like, if it were… Why wouldn’t he tell me what I wanna hear?
.

 

[daler]

I fail to see how this is childish. Is it not the very same argument you have used here?

You have said, over and over again, that rational people ought to be very skeptical of literal events that defy reason.

Why is it permissible for you to use this argument, but when I posit the same argument to you, it is now “childish” and “not serious discussion.”

. “Not until thou hast grasped the mysteries concealed in that which We shall relate unto thee canst thou hope to attain to the stations of faith and certitude in the Cause of God and in those who are the Manifestations of His Cause, the Daysprings of His Command, the Treasuries of His revelation, and the Repositories of His knowledge. Shouldst thou fail in this, thou wouldst be numbered with them that have not striven for the Cause of God, nor inhaled the fragrance of faith from the raiment of certitude, nor scaled the heights of the divine unity, nor yet recognized the stations of divine singleness within the Embodiments of praise and the Essences of sanctity.”

(Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 5)

 

[Tony_Micelli]

Is Baha’i an attempt to bring all religions together or something? I believe this would be an enlightenment styled religion rather than a revolutionary one.

The problem is Christianity has no way of accommodating new revelation. It’s by it’s very nature opposed to any “new teachings” like with Mohammed or Joe Smith. Gnosticism has always been conisidered a heresy by the church and I would lump Baha’i with other gnostic heresies.

As far as I know, Baha’i is a peaceful religion, like Christianity and there is much good in it.

 

[Servant19]

Is Baha’i an attempt to bring all religions together or something? I believe this would be an enlightenment styled religion rather than a revolutionary one.

Hi Tony, great question.

I’m not sure what your definition of an “enlightenment styled” or “revolutionary” religion is, but what the Baha’i Faith is trying to do is, not to bring all religions together, but rather to bring all “peoples” together under the banner of One Human Race serving the One God, under One Common Purpose and Law.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician.” - Baha’u’llah

The Law of God for this Age is based on Universal Love, Justice and Service, selfless and sacrificial service.
Baha’u’llah has provided the means and the instruments to raise up the spiritually dead into the spiritually gigantic, those that are the scourge of society into those that are the light upon light of society. Institutions have been created to empower an ever-swelling number of such individuals.

The problem is Christianity has no way of accommodating new revelation. It’s by it’s very nature opposed to any “new teachings” like with Mohammed or Joe Smith. Gnosticism has always been conisidered a heresy by the church and I would lump Baha’i with other gnostic heresies.

What do you see as the similarity between the Baha’i Faith and gnosticism?

As far as I know, Baha’i is a peaceful religion, like Christianity and there is much good in it.

God bless and I pray that we can one day work together under the common banner of Universal Fellowship and Love

 

[Servant19]

Australia has been blessed to host 3 youth conferences this year, part of the 114 global youth conferences instigated by the Universal House of Justice in 2013.

Here is a brief report from the Brisbane conference last weekend:

We are about mid way through the conference.

The conference is joyful, purposeful and a beehive of activity.

This morning’s devotions included prayers in Hindi, English, Chinese, Arabic, French, Islander, Italian, Persian - and other languages Vahid could not understand or recognise. Diversity is quite superb. I had tears in my eyes hearing youth from so many backgrounds and races cry out the name of Baha’u’llah with such sincerity, love and devotion.

Many of those saying prayers and preforming last night are from the wider community. There is no way of identifying who is a Baha’i youth and who is not. Here, you understand why it really does not matter! The language, the orientation and reflections of everyone demonstrates a deep understanding of the vision of Baha’u’llah and a high resolve to serve humanity.

This morning two reflections made a deep impression on me. This was in the plenary session, as part of the reflections on the first day, in front of nearly 600 youth.

One youth from the wider community said, and I paraphrase. “The fact that I stand in front of you to say a few words is in itself a miracle. I spent my childhood and junior youth years worrying about the world and the sufferings of other human beings. I felt isolated and alone. I thought everyday of killing myself. I did not want to live in a world where no one cared. Then I met one of you. And today I am standing here among you all. I love you all. Thank you for being so amazing.” Another youth (from Rockhampton) said," I grew up in a family with (hesitation to find the words)…loose morals and heavy drinking. Since being welcomed into the Baha’i community, I have changed - my life has changed. Thank you."

Sitting in group discussions I have seen that the collective study and exploration of the Writings, in a way that results in generation and diffusion of knowledge and understanding, in an environment of appreciation and encouragement, is so natural to these youth that I can’t help but think we have broken the back of the congregational mindset in this age group.

Following a discussion with the Counsellors on the first day in regards to the use of the arts - as a way of exploring and advancing understanding rather than just demonstrating a concept, I have been observing the use of the arts in the various groups. It seems like the use of the arts is a natural element of the learning rather than an ‘add on’. It just emerges naturally, in whatever form, out of the discussion and consultation.

 

[tonyfish58]

lochias

it may be that the bahai are ignorant and incredulous more than hypocritical.

i believe that the bahai who have commented here are sincere in their beliefs but uninformed as to our beliefs.

there are nearly two millenium of writings, hundreds of thousands of pages, by catholic saints, mystics and believers.

i am almost 100% certain that none of those bahai commenting here, nor any other bahai are familiar with all of those writings. most likely, they are not even familiar with most of the earliest christian writer such as ignatius of antioch, polycarp of smyrna, irenaeus of lyon, etc. then throw in st. jerome, st. augustine and you begin to get a picture of how ignorant most people are of the understandings of our catholic faith.

they have, as do many other religions and protestant denominations only their own interpretations of the sacred scriptures. it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to interpret sacred scripture as it was meant to be interpreted without having extensive background in the catholic faith.

add to that the fact that a single scripture verse can have different levels of meaning and understanding and it is easy to see why people remain ignorant of our faith.

that makes it incumbent upon us to live our lives in a manner that raises curiosity in the unbelivers. remember that historical reference, “look at those christians, see how they love one another”?

Eddie - Very well said - Yes I can state that I do not know much about the Catholic faith.

It is the spirit of the Teachings I love. It is these that bring us to God through Christ and the Manifestations. The First love has to be Christ Himself.

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

When all become one in Baha’u’llah and are under a one world government. Human institutions will save us and defeat evil. It’s nothing more than another utopian pipe dream.

As promised by Christ

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

My question has not been answered, when will God bring this world to rights? Will he bring this world to rights?

Interestingly the Baha’i revelation laid down all the laws to achieve this outcome. Baha’u’llah then sent letters to the leaders of the world and the churches.

They all rejected the Most Great Peace. Baha’u’llah then wrote again, told them of their downfall and now they had rejected the Most Great Peace they must cling to the lesser peace. Baha’u’llah then laid the foundation to achieve the Lesser Peace. To date the councils have not been fully put into practice.

There are numerous writings on this topic, here is one - reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BWF/bwf-6.html

Regards Tony

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

as i said before, there is nothing in bahai for a christian to learn or explore once the christian hears that the bahai deny Jesus as the Incarnate Word.

The Bahai teaching is that Christ was the Word. In one passage I was reading in Persian recently (kitab-e Badi’), Baha’u’llah calls Christ the Most Great Word.

This thread is for questions about Bahai. It’s not helped by you telling us all what Bahai believe, or do not believe, since you clearly do not know. Why not look at a wikipedia page about the Bahai Faith, and ask a question about something that strikes you?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Thank you for posting the extract from the catechism SteveVH; I found it refreshingly modern and moderate in relation to the usefulness & limitations of historical criticism. I found the full text here.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Non-Baha’i: “God bless you.”

Baha’i: “May the Day Spring of the Ages enshroud you with his wisdom and may the heaven of your consciousness be filled with the resplendent radiance of He who is without beginning or end.”

One of my pet bugs is the way the dye from colourful Bahai scriptural language runs into Bahai-speak, like the colour of your white jockeys after being washed with new jeans.

There are good reasons why the Bahai scriptural translations look the way they do. “Day Spring” or “dawning place” for example both translate a technical term from astronomy, the term for the point on the horizon where a heavenly body rises, on a particular day. It’s a scientific analogy for the way the guidance of God appears at different places but is the same guidance. In a translation, where the original text is richly embroidered with terms and images that contain a theological point, the translator will try to preserve all of them, and by being consistent will try to enable an educated reader to see what terms lie behind the English, and therefore what extra points are being made by what looks like a rhetorical adornment.

However (in my view) Bahais should do their best to resist the tendency to start talking like the scripture that we read so often.

 

[tonyfish58]

One of my pet bugs is the way the dye from colourful Bahai scriptural language runs into Bahai-speak, like the colour of your white jockeys after being washed with new jeans.

There are good reasons why the Bahai scriptural translations look the way they do. “Day Spring” or “dawning place” for example both translate a technical term from astronomy, the term for the point on the horizon where a heavenly body rises, on a particular day. It’s a scientific analogy for the way the guidance of God appears at different places but is the same guidance. In a translation, where the original text is richly embroidered with terms and images that contain a theological point, the translator will try to preserve all of them, and by being consistent will try to enable an educated reader to see what terms lie behind the English, and therefore what extra points are being made by what looks like a rhetorical adornment.

However (in my view) Bahais should do their best to resist the tendency to start talking like the scripture that we read so often.

Thanks Sen - That is very interesting, boy we have a lot to learn

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Thank you for posting the extract from the catechism SteveVH; I found it refreshingly modern and moderate in relation to the usefulness & limitations of historical criticism. I found the full text here.

Yes that was a good read - I found this interesting

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”

“For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”

I was reading this morning from the Kitabi-i-qan, very applicable to above;

We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension! Pages 81-93 Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-3.html

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Sorry. I am not understanding your point.

Are you saying that everything that Merton and your prophets said can be attributed to Jesus?

Yes, if not for the miracles of Jesus, how is He differentiated from Merton? (by your own logic)

I see the difference between Baha’ullah and Merton. I also see the difference between Jesus and Merton.

I do not see a difference between Baha’u’llah and Jesus however…same Light, different lamp.

 

[Servant19]

There is nothing wrong with quoting from the Pharisees, if what they said is true. Where they got it right, we give them a . Where they got it wrong we say:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0ld1kpZAm1qbgytb.gif

You are aware that the LDS denounce abortion, right?

They got that part right. So we say to the LDS, :clapping::yup:

That’s what’s so fundamentally awesome about Catholicism. We have been give the Truth, once and for all, and we recognize it wherever it is professed.

So they got it wrong with recognizing Jesus as Messiah?

Would Moses have recognized Jesus as the Messiah? I think so. In fact I’m pretty confident.

But the Pharisees had the Semikhah to guide them in these matters. How did they fall so far away from what Moses would have done? “He then laid his hands on him and commissioned him as God had commanded Moses.” (Num 27:15-23)

These authorized “entities” were given the power of Moses to discern the truth of Jesus’ claim. Why were they wrong?

 

[Servant19]

Is there anything I have missed to which you would like me to respond?

No response is necessarily needed Steve, but the thing you may have missed is the pertinent point that just like Catholics, we do not see Baha’u’llah as being one with the Father. The Manifestation of God shares the same substance with the Father, but is not “one” with Him.

Just as Catholics pray to Jesus as their God, Baha’is pray to Baha’u’llah as their God.

There is very little dissimilar in terms of our understanding of the relationship between the Father and His Manifestaions. That’s my thoughts…

 

[Servant19]

I answered your post and you have failed to further defend it. Here is post #810 in which I responded:

You had nothing that was not from a Baha’i source. No independent historical verification. To have a Baha’i faithful proclaim that they knew non-Baha’i’s who believed doesn’t quite cut it.

…but Steve, you still seem to misunderstand. Miracles mean very little in the Baha’i Dispensation. In 3000 posts we have not once mentioned one miracle by Baha’u’llah. So why would we seek “independent verification”

For Catholics however, it seems that the entire religion has become “reliant” on the historical factuality of Jesus having performed them. There is no Catholic Faith, it seems, if the “physical” resurrection did not occur.

Which also begs the question. In 1 Corinthians 15:44,
*
It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:*

why is the term “glorified body” not used, but rather a “spiritual body”?

What is the difference between a glorified body, a spiritual body and a spirit?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Interestingly the Baha’i revelation laid down all the laws to achieve this outcome. Baha’u’llah then sent letters to the leaders of the world and the churches.

They all rejected the Most Great Peace. Baha’u’llah then wrote again, told them of their downfall and now they had rejected the Most Great Peace they must cling to the lesser peace. Baha’u’llah then laid the foundation to achieve the Lesser Peace. To date the councils have not been fully put into practice.

There are numerous writings on this topic, here is one - reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BWF/bwf-6.html

Regards Tony

Point of order: the text Tony links to is from a talk by Abdu’l-Baha, and it is not canonical for Bahais as there are no Persian notes of that particular talk (when notes were taken, Abdu’l-Baha would correct them.) The reason this is worth pointing out is that the English notes of what he said refers to the “most great peace”, whereas he is actually talking about the cessation of war and strife, which in the Bahai writings is known as the Lesser Peace or the world’s great peace, or universal peace. In his letter to the Peace conference at The Hague (1907), Abdu’l-Baha outlines part of Baha’u’llah’s plan for this lesser, or outward, peace. He begins with a “catechism” text outlining the Bahai social teachings, and then writes:

For example, the question of universal peace, about which Bahá’u’lláh says that the Supreme Tribunal must be established: although the League of Nations has been brought into existence, yet it is incapable of establishing universal peace. But the Supreme Tribunal which Bahá’u’lláh has described will fulfil this sacred task with the utmost might and power. And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation—that is to say parliaments—should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government. From among these people the members of the Supreme Tribunal will be elected, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or by majority rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or ground of objection for the defendant. In case any of the governments or nations, in the execution of the irrefutable decision of the Supreme Tribunal, be negligent or dilatory, the rest of the nations will rise up against 307 it, because all the governments and nations of the world are the supporters of this Supreme Tribunal.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

May I ask what the “Day of Resurrection” is all about?

Every “day” in which a Manifestation appears, is a day of resurrection and judgement.

In relation to Muhammad, for example:

When the light of Qur’ánic Revelation was kindled within the chamber of Muhammad’s holy heart, He passed upon the people the verdict of the Last Day, the verdict of resurrection, of judgment, of life, and of death.
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 114)

The separation and judgement occurs through the response of the people themselves: some recognize and accept that God is doing a new thing, while other reject that possibility. As Jesus said

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

There’s a section in the Kitab-e Iqan in which Baha’u’llah explains symbolic eschatological language:

Although the Day of Resurrection was ushered in through the Revelation of Muhammad, although His light and tokens had encompassed the earth and all that is therein, yet that people derided Him, … Such things have come to pass in the days of every Manifestation of God. Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again.” Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” The purport of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God.
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 117)